You're close

What i'm getting at is this:

You're correct in that the foundation of all personal religion is faith. The consequence of that fact is what i'm arguing. The bible, the Quran, the Torah--anything that is a foundation of a religion is as an article of faith.

Stuff like Jesus beiong resurrected--we don't know for shure if it happened. It's impossible to say whether it did or not. Thus: Faith. And when you get into Faith, it's a slippery slope because Faith is the surch for truth--not fact. Truths vary from person to person--and can't really be proven. You know personal truths as things that siply are. You can't really say why they are true--you just know them to be. This gets hairy when someone else doesn't believe them.

The problem is you can't pose truths as fact. My point was basically: You can't apply your own truths to someone else.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

isnt there things written by josephus about christ? describing everything that was going on around that time when he was being crucified.


<img src="http://registry.gmenthusiast.com/images/jiggaman/personal_pic.jpg">

Perhaps, but do you ever hear of a non-christian source saying he was resurrected?

See, that takes a leap of faith. And there's nothing wrong with that--no more than say, believeing in magic or ghosts (neither of which can be proven or disproven).


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

^ That's an impossibibility ^

Anyone who believes in the ressurection is a Christian by default. Would anyone witness the ressurection but deny the divinity of Christ? Would you?

PAX

I've seen that one guy levitate on street magic..do i believe it? ..no

^^^ Watch his foot in the shadow...

If you believe in Christ's resurrection, and that makes you a Christian by default, what about the pagan stories of resurrection? Lazarus?

Resurrection is not the exclusive domain of Chrisitanity, and given that there are stories in the Torrah about it, and even older religions (Hindu, Greek/Roman, Mesopotamian/Sumarian other Asia Minor based religions) that have resurrection ideals as well as others espoused in Chrisitanity, wouldn't you think that a lot of the ideals behind a lot of religions are common themed, and just go at the end result in a different way?




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

jbody4jc wrote:God is good. He is such a force in the lives of those who seek Him. I''m so excited to be going on a mission trip this next upcoming weekend, there's nothing like a humble appreciation after coming back from a third world country to know that God blesses those who bless Him. I know I can't give a good heart felt testimony or I'll get banned again, but God is love, and His Word is His promise to the things that happen today and are to happen in the future. Belief isn't a weakness, but the flesh can be played with as Satan's tool in sin and idol chatter. What can be weaker? Having a relationship with God is spiritually empowering with an eternal hope. The Son God sent is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, Jesus Christ! Peace to all and God BLess!

Yhea... God is good, to bad and very sad followers, worshipers, religion in general around this world can not follow the same suite.


THE POLITICALLY INCORRECT ONE.

[quote=Keeper of the Light™]Perhaps, but do you ever hear of a non-christian source saying he was resurrected?

See, that takes a leap of faith. And there's nothing wrong with that--no more than say, believeing in magic or ghosts (neither of which can be proven or disproven).

Keeping it in context... I'm not saying that Christ was the only ressurection, I'm saying that any who witnessed Christ's ressurection and believed it would be Christian.. Therefore there is no non-Christian account of the story.

PAX

Something new to me. Well I left Huntington Beach and moved to Laguna down in the south OC and I noticed a lot of church's here serve a building, not the body of people. All these freakin rich people want is to add onto the church grounds and meet monthly quotas on going beyond your average tithes and offerings. I've never gave because my money see's the bank for bills before me, but its quite sad. I don't even hear the pastor mention Jesus 3 or 4 times in a Sunday morning service. I'm from Calvary Chapel and thats all I know, everything based on Jesus, and if a church is meant to grow, God will let it be known. Maybe its me, but I just dont fit in with a bunch of Sunday Christians that just do not realize that the all to common occurance of Church's stealing and preaching money just as much God, need's to be identified. Please tell me if any of you guy's have seen this.


Smile, Jesus loves you!!!!! <><
Manchild-ProPain, out now, Sphereofhiphop.com

I was asked to go to worship in Houston, and being polite and with nothing better to do, and hoping to maybe land some action (if not a friend), I went, and frankly, I was similarly disgusted.

"your offering makes greater your guarentee to live with God"

I heard that, and not realising I was being an ass, stood up, left the pew walked down the center aisle, and left. The people that invited me asked why I walked out of the house of God... I told them it's not a house of God, it's a f******* bank. (pardon me for using Asterisks, I didn't leave anything laying out, its one of a Dozen or so 7 letter F words).

When my uncle died a couple years ago, I was talking to the pastor (he had actually baptised me, and he knows about my 'problems' with religion) about the episode in Houston, and he kind of smiled... "you know, the size of the house isn't so important as the work that's done there, and the people that love each other." The Presbyterian Church that he belonged to wasn't interested in building larger and larger Churches, Sure they had to when the cogregation grew, but more about doing the work in the community. When it came time to renovate, they used Congregational money, elbow grease and donated supplies.

It's not a Grandiose Church, but is serves the needs of the people, and there isn't an emphasis on giving money... Ushers don't go out with buckets, just small envelopes and a tray.. both get re-used.

The Church doesn't mean as much as the people.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

The Church is the people. Always has been. Thou art Peter and upon you I shall build my church" to paraphrase.

PAX

Good for you Gam. Stay at your original church, I would have done the same, but I was sitting in the last row in the back, for my grand exit, someone would have took for just getting a drink of water or going to the restroom. cool though. Thats what they become when the church is money hungry, banks.


Smile, Jesus loves you!!!!! <><
Manchild-ProPain, out now, Sphereofhiphop.com

I don't have a Church per se, I was going there to be polite to the people I was staying with in Houston. The Presbyterian Minister is a friend of the family, and he knows about whys and wherefors of my troubles with religions...

I didn't tromp out like a child, but I did leave in utter disgust.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Keeper, I am a bit sketchy on this sermon since I heard it a couple Christmas' ago but my pastor (who I certainly believe to be a good man) was talking about how there are some 10,000 sources of Jesus Christ. I think some of these are just ordinary people keeping a type journal on their life and since Jesus was so big (healing tons of people and all) they of course included Him. While so many continue to deny His existence, yet I think it was Plato or one of the big philosophers and how there were only so many original sources of his work yet how no one denies his existence. Evil wants to make people oppose the idea of Christ, but also it is important to be careful in religious issues. I have heard many historians who are not Christian admit that a man name Jesus existed and these many events took place. After He was risen from the dead I believe the Bible says something like over 500 witnesses. So I do think there are sources besides Christian sources. Of course as said, faith doesn't need sources. Truly in my experience and in true Christians, there is a revealing by the Holy Spirit of what truth is. When all the pieces start coming together from every angle in life such as troubles in this and that and understanding the Church's teachings a believer can admit the hand of God is working. Even when I step outside and think of the vastness of the universe it can overwhelm my brain and make me consider how a God could make this, but then the Spirit affirms all that has been revealed to me and I have faith He did make it all.
Also, as far as the Bible goes, ghosts do exist. Even Jesus after He came back to life said to His disciples something like- do not be afraid and go ahead and touch my wounds to see that I am of flesh and not a ghost. Therefore ghosts are mentioned as something that is without flesh. Also another part in the gospel was when Jesus walked on water and his disciples thought at first in terror that He was a ghost. I have had friends who seemed to have ghosts in there house. Wild stuff!

Jbody4JC, your faith seems quite strong and with it you can move mountains. When I heard about your new church one of the 1st thoughts I had was praise God that you are there because perhaps through prayer and action you can wake that church up by the grace of God. If these people are not getting it, then work to get the true message out, whether by talking to the pastors or getting letters out or some kind of speech or testimony as a new comer. This is a great opportunity to serve Him and help so many, as we know not all church goes are saved. Judas Iscariot walked with Jesus yet still betrayed Him.

Yino: Not to harp, but the enter key and white-space is your friend.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Don't get me wrong, I believe that Jesus was a man that did exist, and was probably more enlightened than most people.

I do not believe a lot of what was attributed to him, though--and though no fault of his own. More like his followers. The chronicles of the beginnings of Buddhism shed light on that.

I think that if one were to ask Jesus about what happened, you'd find a LOT of exageration that has been taken verbatim for almost 2 millenia.

Anyhow, I think it's easy for someone to say that those that don't believe as I do are evil--and i seriously doubt that Jesus would think that way (I can't be sure though, i don't know him ). I think it takes a bit more and a bigger person to tolerate someone that has different beliefs than to say that they are automatically evil.

After all--isn't intolerance an evil in-and-of-itself?


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

I agree. I don't think one is evil just because they don't believe this or that. Evil comes from the heart and whether it is worldly or pure. Good deeds are pleasing to God whether the person believes or not. However, as for Christian faith, for one to be saved whether a bad person or not , they are called to believe such as stated in John 3:16.

Gam the space key keeps biting my thumb everytime I touch it. No actually I just don't want to extend these too long, but I'll keep your eyes in mind.

Still, what if one isbasically a good person, but doesn't believe they need saving? Moreso, does one really need to be saved?

It has been said before that God talks to people in mysterious ways. One could be how lost one feels. I've known people who were christian that were über comfortable with themselves and their life, and people that were very lost--and the same for non christians. Form christianity's standpoint. couldn't it be that those that are really comfortable with their life and position in life and aren't christian are perhaps following God's plan? And maybe God's plan for them is to not be Christian...

Not so much a point for you, per se, but to those that evangelize out the yin-yang. If God works in mysterious ways, then consider that those ways may be foreign or contradictory to what a christian would believe.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

One does need to be saved because we all fell in Adam's first sin.-the teaching of several religions including Christianity.

As a Christianity I would say that God's revealed plan is in the Scriptures, and therefore we know what it takes to be saved. Not following God and being comfortable, or at least thinking one is doing great can be a scary position. Any "comfortable life" without following God is a denial of God and cannot lead to salvation as it doesn't follow His revealed plan. Evil looks to make people think they are fine without God.

Quote:

couldn't it be that those that are really comfortable with their life and position in life and aren't christian are perhaps following God's plan?

Yes, I think it is possible for one to be saved who isn't "Christian," because His spirit is the one that brings one to be saved. All those who are saved whether Christian, Jew, Muslim, or any other are only saved because His spirit is in them confessing belief in Him. His spirit will bring them to know He is God and to go forth with the grace that leads to a godly life. As He says in the gospel He will not lose one of His children. As it seems, to Christians of course, Christianity most closely follows the Bible and seems the most correct way towards having confidence in being saved.

To all, I would not recommend trying to attain salvation without believing He sent Jesus, as He clearly calls for us to believe in His son. But I have written on this just to show a possibility may exist for one to be saved without following Christian beliefs. But again, to completely be without God cannot bring about salvation. I know the Roman church addresses salvation in non-christian religions at catholicanswers.com

He does work in mysterious ways. One way could be to have a non-christian, with His Holy Spirit in them, working to help them bring love and goodness to a non-christian religion or area.

Quote:

One does need to be saved because we all fell in Adam's first sin.-the teaching of several religions including Christianity.

But not mine--and you can't prove me wrong any more than I can prove you wrong. Futrher, i cannot prove myself right--i just know I am. You cannot prove yourself right--you just know you are.

Ergo, It's not without plausibility that we are both right, in that I don't need salvation by means of Christianity. Otherwise, if i needed it, i would feel a longing to need it, or would be trying to form some kind of substitute to feel the void. However, I don't. I was quite malcontent when i was Christian, and in the few times post-christian that i was forced into a cristian situation, but when i'm travelling on the Path i'm travelling,. i feel the most content.

Which leads me to belive that either:

a) My idea of how the uninverse works is correct for me, and i'm doing what i need to be doing.

b) I'm walking along the path God has chosen for me, and his intent at least thus far is to NOT embrace Christ or God.

Either way doesn't include embracing God or Christ's divinity...

In that way i ask the majority of christians that seek to convert people; If you try to convert someone that won't convert--mabye it's part of God's divine plan for them to walk the Path that they're walking--and who do you think you are by trying to mess up God's plan?



Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

Truly we can't and are not suppose to force Christianity on anyone. Man can only share the message but it is God who will bring a heart to believe and finally understand. We can all pray for our hearts to understand, He loves when people come to Him sincerely for help to know Him.

Christians are called by God to share His message of salvation-this part of His plan He has openly taught us. Sorry if you are ever feel forced, sometimes people just want others to know the gift of His grace so bad that they erroneously go about trying to share the faith.