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Re: pro evolutionists
Thursday, July 21, 2005 5:04 AM on j-body.org
I'm a bit confused over the wording. You want a pic of remains of the step prior to modern humans or do you want pictures of prehistoric human remains. They are not the same thing. Prehistoric just means older than recorded history. There's tons of prehistoric human remains. Homo-erectus or something like that is more rare, but still not hard to find. I'm not "pro-evolution" either.. If you are trying to make an anti-evolutionary statement, you'll have to do better than that.

Rodimus, there is absolutely massive amounts of archilogical evedence to support Biblical stories. Get over it, it's true. Don't say no evidence what-so-ever.. Maybe there's a lack of evidence surrounding certain issues but there is evidence to support much of what is written.

Anti-evolutionist Christians need to read the arguments of St. Athanasius and St. Thomas Aquinus before they take up the argument. The dogma does not suggest that God created humans overnight, poof, and there they were. It actually agrees with much of evolutionary theory. It says that God "planted the seeds of life".. IE: we were designed to evolve into what we see today. All things came about in a slow progressive fashion. Honest, find it, read it. These authors were founders of the Christian church and did there work in 200 to 300 AD. Wonderful progressive thinkers who do not deserve to be ignored by all of those with pre-concieved notions regarding creation. They described "Created Evolution" (modern design theory), about 1600 years BEFORE the theory of evolution came about.

PAX

Re: pro evolutionists
Thursday, July 21, 2005 5:24 AM on j-body.org
aquafire wrote:Gonna get a little off topic here but has there ever been a discussion about how god came to be? Big Bang theories get shot down by some creationists because they believe that something cannot come from nothing. Basically all I'm saying is that what or who made god? If you can't believe that the universe came from nothing in the first place then how could a god come to be if there was nothing there to begin with?


That is where faith comes in. Creationists believe (somebody correct me if i'm wrong) that god has simply always been around.



Promise that forever we will never get better at growing up and learning to lie

Re: pro evolutionists
Thursday, July 21, 2005 5:35 AM on j-body.org
lol at some of the PROEVOLUTIONISTS not even knowing what they are supposed to believe.

dude can't find pre MODERN human remains more than 50,000 years ago? what are you smoking dude!!!!!!

we have modern homo sapien skulls found and dated 160,000 years ago.

i'm not trying to make anypoint i'm letting everyone else try to make a point yet know one has done.

no pro evolutionist here can show a pre modern human(homosapien) remain.
Re: pro evolutionists
Thursday, July 21, 2005 8:28 AM on j-body.org
Pretjah wrote:lol at some of the PROEVOLUTIONISTS not even knowing what they are supposed to believe.

dude can't find pre MODERN human remains more than 50,000 years ago? what are you smoking dude!!!!!!

we have modern homo sapien skulls found and dated 160,000 years ago.

i'm not trying to make anypoint i'm letting everyone else try to make a point yet know one has done.

no pro evolutionist here can show a pre modern human(homosapien) remain.


So, what's your point? Give me the directions to the Garden of Eden and I'll give you the directions to some skulls.


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Re: pro evolutionists
Thursday, July 21, 2005 8:32 AM on j-body.org
ScottaWhite wrote:"Until there is solid evidence (ie. the exact spot where there was a break from simian to human specie), you're asking someone to turn a theory into a law. "

GAM called it a theory. Even scentists who believe in the religion of evolution, are forced to admit that it is a theory.

For any of you that would like to make some money, go to this website:

www.drdino.com

I think Dr. Hagen (sp) is still offering a substantial reward for anyone able to offer proof of evolution.

Btw, he will destroy any argument that you can come up with. He doesn't ask you to attack the Bible, or Christianity. He doesn't ask you to compare which makes more sense...just prove YOUR case.

He's participated in creation vs. evolution debates all over this country, and never lost.

Sadly, like many Christians, the followers of the religion of evolution do not know why they disagree with opposing viewpoints. So, naturally, I do not expect many of you followers to even view the site. It is much easier to not have to examine why you believe what you believe.

.


Religion of evolution? Are you kidding me? Evolution and creationism aren't mutually exclusive unless you're a fundamentalist Christian moron who believes things verbatim.


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Re: pro evolutionists
Thursday, July 21, 2005 9:04 AM on j-body.org
Rodimus Prime wrote:THere is tons of prehistoric skulls found all over the world, we werent just put here overnight by some God event

I find it funny that those that are Jesus freaks never have ANY evidence to back up thier claims cept a 2000 year old book wrote by ppl who still thought the world was flat and the wheel was mankinds greatest invention. Science on the other hand has nothing but proof
Rodimus - I don't usually disagree with most of what you say, but that statement is quite ignorant.

First, Christian does not = "Jesus freak." Granted many are, but this is like every other generic stereotype - IGNORANT.

Second, not all people alive 2000 years ago thought the world was flat(Some people had the world is round thing figured out much sooner than is popularly believed - brush up on your history - again ignorance), nor does it say so in that "2000 year old book" (which the old testament is much older than 2000 years some of the books of the old testament are older than others - ignorance - strike three you're out!!)

Third, your statement that is never any evidence to support claims of what happened according to the bible - again not true. Do some research and you will find that sometimes the findings of scientist even confirm certain events - for example scientist have found, curiously enough, that a "unique weather phenomenon" occured (where and when the sea parted to let the Jews crossed the sea) which did in fact part the sea. Now this came from atheist scientists.

Finally, read what GAM wrote a little after your post - because that can also apply to creationism.

Pretjah wrote:lol at some of the PROEVOLUTIONISTS not even knowing what they are supposed to believe.

LOL. I don't too often find myself agreeing with Pretjah, but this is quite often the case where as an Evolutionist is thoroughly ignorant of the details of the evolutionary theory that say say they believe. Now if you don't know something, how can you believe it?!

This is of course a two-way street. A good MAJORITY of Christians are no different. There is no shortage of Christians who are thoroughly ignorant of their own faith. Again, if you don't know something, how can you believe it?!

Of course both parties don't even know what it is that they don't know, usually they don't even know that they don't know it. They are ignorant of their ignorance(read = sheep). LOL.


Don't get me wrong, I do believe in evolution, as well I'm a Christian. How can I be both? Simple, I'm not a mindless sheep so I can reason for myself. Independent intelligent thought allows me to come to a more logical conclusions than just blindly(and sheepishly) accepting either theory(as a whole as if the ideas behind each are inseparable). This is the same thing with political party politics Instead of just looking at two alternate pictures, examine the pieces of the puzzle(metaphorically speaking).

Believe what you like, but random evolution isn't any more PROVEN(If you're missing pieces - you don't have the whole picture) than pure creationism is. Don't dilute yourself here. Both theories are missing pieces, and I believe the missing pieces may already be incorporated the other's puzzle. If you're not open to this your ever gonna find the missing pieces - since you'll never look in "the obvious wrong place."(again this is also true of politics ) Did you know Charles Darwin was a Christian?

Without getting into too much detail, I think that God did create the universe, life in general, and mankind itself etc, also that God is also the main driving force behind evolutionary change. I also believe that the "days" in which God created everything would be better translated/interpreted as day in age. Rather as sectioned off periods of time. In this case, you're actually moving in the correct order. Also, God said that he created the universe, but didn't go into specifics. I think that God created the universe, wrote its physics laws, and set it off with a...

BIG BANG

Keep in mind that the Bible was written for primitive man to understand. Furthermore earlier books where carried down by primitive man through generations unwritten. Eventually written, and translated by less primitive, but still primitive man. Any higher scientific meaning , if not already lost, would have surely been lost here. Then tranlated some more. Then most likely(personal speculation of mine) corrupted by people("religious leaders") with a lust for money/power etc. So I don't take it word-for -word, but I do think there is a wealth of truth in it - seperating the truth from the rest takes lots of both logical thought and prayer.




I've never heard of this "part throttle" before. Does it just bolt on?
Re: pro evolutionists
Thursday, July 21, 2005 10:59 AM on j-body.org
The Bible isn't 2000 years old. It was written a few hundred years after Christ's death supposedly.

Speaking of people who believe in evolution not knowing what they believe. I can honestly say very few Christians I know have read the Bible cover to cover, let alone multiple times like they should to have a complete understanding for themselves. They prefer to go to church so other people can tell them what to believe. Why interpret for ourselves, no? Hell, for that matter, if it inconveniences us, do it anyways... we can always ask for forgiveness later.



Re: pro evolutionists
Thursday, July 21, 2005 11:05 AM on j-body.org
blizsham...i agree there are "christians" who claim to know what christianity says and they are totally ignorant on the subject. however Christianity claims to be a study of faith more than knowledge. while evolution claims to be a study of knowledge not faith.

so claiming christianity is as wrong as evolutionists for not knowing the "facts" of thier subject matter is not a possibility.

however back on subject thisis not a creation vs. evolution thread. this is simply a thread to see what evolutionists on the board actually know about evolution. and what scientific proff they have about man evolving from another spieces
Re: pro evolutionists
Thursday, July 21, 2005 11:14 AM on j-body.org
You're asking for people to show scientific proof of something that has never been scientifically proven. I'm not exactly sure what your point is? Regardless, humans share over 95% of their dna with chimps. That's more 'proof' than any spontaneous generation theory will ever have.

As for most Christians not knowing the 'facts' of their subject matter; there is no excuse. It's in black and white, right there for everyone to interpret for themselves.



Re: pro evolutionists
Thursday, July 21, 2005 12:57 PM on j-body.org
Pret: Science is the study of evidence, and the postulating of theory based on that evidence and deduction.

Scott: CSE bills itself as a religious ministry. And the "proof" that is being forwarded is mere supposition. Read the Article <A href="http://www.drdino.com/seeArticle.php?artid=56">Discover Magazine Juggles With Bad-science</a> by Jonathan Sampson. In it, working on the Christian science theory, he offers no reply for many of the extraneous body parts we have other than to say that they were useful before humans fell. Not ONLY does he conclusively NOT make any case for his view point, he actually uses the theory of evolution to disprove his point. (ie. Read about the Appendix... Either the appendix has no function, or the other lymphocite production parts (like oh, bone marrow) have no function, because they do the same thing, Marrow does it with considerably less drag on the blood stream and doesn't have the tendency to swell. It's also kind of comical that the author doesn't take into account that you can live without an appendix, but you cannot, however, live without Marrow.)

This is also coming from a fundamentally rigid and biased view. It cannot alter with new scientific ideals or new evidence. You'd think that when Gallileo disproved the churches long held ideals that the world was flat, it would have driven the principle home... no, we do not know what happened before we hit the face of the Earth, and no, we could not have seen the genesis of the earth, however, secular science can alter its viewpoint, and it charged with finding out why things are the way they are, and why they're not different; christian science starts at the other end, and is inflexible, or explains away the findings of secular science as the wonders of "intelligent design" without elaboration, or explanation. Its arrogant and also inconclusive.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.


Re: pro evolutionists
Thursday, July 21, 2005 3:55 PM on j-body.org
Quote:

He's participated in creation vs. evolution debates all over this country, and never lost.

That guy's pretty boastful... never lost.... lol He has a theory that has NOTHING in the way of tangible evidence and he has never lost! hahaha... what theory does this guy have evidence for then or is he just one of those people who uses the same tired arguments (how can things come from nothing, the complexity argument). I argued this topic on the other long post and although I could never boast I won, I certainly did not lose If this guy believes in the literal Bible I can shoot him down in an instant... if he believes in a more reasonable interpretation (like hahaha) than I'd have more of a fight on my hands!
Quote:

no pro evolutionist here can show a pre modern human(homosapien) remain.

This is a confusing statement... by Pre-homo sapiens do you mean another hominid species? Cuz we put up a dozen images of a pre-human! Or do you mean an ancient Homo sapien? How old is pre-modern in that instance? Ancient sapiens lived alongside Neanderthal man, which was a sapiens subspecies!
What are you getting at with this post Pretjah?





Re: pro evolutionists
Thursday, July 21, 2005 7:27 PM on j-body.org
spitfire...what i'm getting at is there is no evidence man evovled from anything!

NONE

all previous creations from evolution have proven to be non human origin lines. if they exsisted in the speculative state that they exsist in, in anycase.

once again i'm simply showing that it takes more faith to believe in evolution than it does to believe in intellegent design!
Re: pro evolutionists
Friday, July 22, 2005 4:35 AM on j-body.org
ok gotta step in here for a minute. there is no proof what so ever that we came from monkey. if we did then why didn't all monkeys evolve into humans? also the bible is divided into two parts the new and the old testament. the old testament is the fire and brimstone wrath of god type stuff while the new is love and peace. i realy dont think you can have both its kinda contradictory anyway dont you think? in one book its says to kill children to apees god and in another it says spare rod and .... well you get it.

people that think there ancestors crawled up out of the mud hey great prove it.

people that think there ancestors were created by an all knowing force hey great prove it.


no one can prove or disprove either argument conclusively so go ahead and argue till your blue in the face it still doesn't proove anything either way.


besides i think were all aliens anyway, dont you remember star wars being a long long
time ago..... well ?




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.



Re: pro evolutionists
Friday, July 22, 2005 9:44 AM on j-body.org
jackalope wrote:if we did then why didn't all monkeys evolve into humans?


That statement is used so much it's ridiculous. Evolutionists do believe that we evolved from primates...however, as far as the theory goes, EVERYTHING on this earth evolved from single celled organisms, which they believe were basically the original inhabitants of the earth. So why do have so much variety of life? Evolution isn't a line, think of it more like a tree...a really really big tree(maybe minus the roots). We are a branch off from primates, that's all.

GAM, as far as lucy was concerned, scientists have unearthed bones much much older than Lucy. I think that Lucy is just the oldest, most complete we have.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4322687.stm

Either way, there is a lot about evolution scientists don't understand, and there is a lot about the Bible Christians don't understand. Until one is fully understood, there will never be a winner of the argument.




Re: pro evolutionists
Friday, July 22, 2005 10:29 AM on j-body.org
i have no idea where we came from and i realy dont care were here now so what. if it
makes people feel better to believe what ever they want i'm not gonna say there wrong.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.



Re: pro evolutionists
Friday, July 22, 2005 11:46 AM on j-body.org
Saying and proving are 2 very different things.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.


Re: pro evolutionists
Friday, July 22, 2005 3:16 PM on j-body.org
Quote:

ok gotta step in here for a minute. there is no proof what so ever that we came from monkey. if we did then why didn't all monkeys evolve into humans?

If you really studied evolution you'd know that evolution is NOTHING like this:
<img src="http://www.bible.ca/tracks/ape-man-line-up.jpg">
it is really a complex branching pattern of evolutionary dead ends, and also branches that have branched themselves into more successful forms... our species is only the single hominid species that has survived competition into modern times... the monkey and ape branches are successful as well, but fill separate niches and therefore are still extant today. heres an example of real evolution:
<img src="http://www.monmouth.com/~bcornet/punctev4.jpg">




Re: pro evolutionists
Friday, July 22, 2005 4:03 PM on j-body.org
spitfire thats all well and good but the animal you show as being ancestors of the giraffe are all extinct so thats plusible. but if we came from apes then why are there still apes around today? wouldn't evolution have either bred away or killed off all other
primates and since it didn't then evolution can not possibly have happened the way the
experts think it did. so like i said before...... no proof. but if thats what you believe then ok i'm noone to tell you your wrong. you just lake the proof to back up your claims so i guess it all comes down to plain and simple faith in your beliefs. they same with
the bible thumpers out there. if God created man and then women, adam and eve
then they were kicked out of the garden and had two sons right? one killed the other
and went off to the land of nod and returned with a wife. now wait a minute how could he have gone to find a wife anywhere if his mom and dad were the only two people created by God??? riddle me that one batman. that just doesn't make any sence.
but again it goes back to faith. its what you believe in even if theres no way to prove it
you swear its correct........ why? can you prove it? if i said my cavalier ran a 8second
1/4 mile you all would want proof right? time slips, video, witnesses, and then even some of you would say "no way" so whats the diff?




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.



Re: pro evolutionists
Friday, July 22, 2005 7:17 PM on j-body.org
Interesting how you are dismissing both theories... what do you believe then? evolution or creation or nothing?

I have plenty of evidence to support evolution, but you'll have to visit the 40-something page thread to read it all... I already did this The thing is yeah, I can't go back and PROVE anything but the evidence on this Earth supports evolution... there is none to support creation so in my mind evolution wins! The Bible can also be interpreted differently to allow faith in God and evolution to coexist...




Re: pro evolutionists
Friday, July 22, 2005 7:24 PM on j-body.org
There was an originating species Jackalope. Humans are primates, as are simians and larger apes, the other species developed from the originating species and were suited for their climate, diet, and other habits that evolved from environmental conditions.

ie. A silver-back gorilla has remarkably similar body structures to a human, but over time, didn't evolve the same brain complexity (although, they are remarkably smart), and humans didn't evolve the heavy frame, nor musculature that they did.

Apes survived the Ice-ages and evolved as did homo-sapien, but many hominids didn't. There is evidence of that. You don't see homo-erectus galavanting around these days?

I can't plausibly argue the biblical ideals of creation, because there isn't any evidence of what was written in genesis was in fact true. I also can't use a lack of evidence as evidence or the act verbatim. Maybe I'm too analytical, but I'd like something concrete to have a postulate formed around.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.


Re: pro evolutionists
Friday, July 22, 2005 7:28 PM on j-body.org
i'm only playing the devils advocate here spitfire thats all. i was brought up in the church but i'm kinda doubting some of there stuff and i'm sorry i just dont buy into evolution. so i guess i realy dont know which way to believe but no biggy just cause i'm screwed up doesn't mean you cant believe what ever you like.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.




Re: pro evolutionists
Friday, July 22, 2005 7:57 PM on j-body.org
GAM wrote "because there isn't any evidence of what was written in genesis was in fact true."

We'll just concentrate on the Genesis flood for a moment.

Fossilized fish and other aquatic life have been found far far above sea level. (high in the mountains) How'd they get there?

Many many ancient civilizations have in their histories a "great flood" (example, in the ancient city of Ninevah, capitol of the Assyrian empire, they found in the royal archives, stone documents discussing said flood.

Same thing in Babylonian (totally NOT Christian) ruins. Why is that?

Now a different question altogether: Believers in the religion of evolution, gripe and moan about the (where did it come from? argument of creationists. Why? They will tell you that the BIG BANG was a result of gases that collided...blah blah or whatever. Ask them where the gases came from, and they'll say, "from other gases", and they came from other gases. infinitum. Why can they believe in infinite matter, but not an infinite God? Read the book of Romans chapters 1-3, to get a few reasons.

It takes intelligent life to create order and structure. Believing in evolution is like believing a chimp could sit down at a typewriter and write out a Shakespearan sonnet just by random chance.
I'll post more with some notes from my apologetics class.

.



“Poor Al Gore. Global warming completely debunked via the very Internet you invented. Oh, oh, the irony!” -Jon Stewart
Re: pro evolutionists
Friday, July 22, 2005 8:28 PM on j-body.org
ScottaWhite wrote:GAM wrote "because there isn't any evidence of what was written in genesis was in fact true."

We'll just concentrate on the Genesis flood for a moment.

Fossilized fish and other aquatic life have been found far far above sea level. (high in the mountains) How'd they get there?


TECTONIC UPHEAVAL.

What was once in a shallow ocean, got bent and WENT INTO THE AIR. Example: The Rockies, the Appalachians, the Alps, the Pirenees, the Himalayas.

Quote:


Many many ancient civilizations have in their histories a "great flood" (example, in the ancient city of Ninevah, capitol of the Assyrian empire, they found in the royal archives, stone documents discussing said flood.

Same thing in Babylonian (totally NOT Christian) ruins. Why is that?


Maybe because the Deltas in Asia Minor were (and still are in most cases, when left unaltered) horrendously prone to periods of flood and recede?

Quote:


Now a different question altogether: Believers in the religion of evolution, gripe and moan about the (where did it come from? argument of creationists. Why? They will tell you that the BIG BANG was a result of gases that collided...blah blah or whatever. Ask them where the gases came from, and they'll say, "from other gases", and they came from other gases. infinitum. Why can they believe in infinite matter, but not an infinite God? Read the book of Romans chapters 1-3, to get a few reasons.


First, Stop with the tripe about the religion of evolution. There is no God of evolution, and it does, in fact, have proof and evidence and the Theory is alterable given the evidence.

Why don't you crack a book on the big bang theory, oh wait, you wouldn't.. it'd totally kill your arguement because it WAS AUTHORED BY A CATHOLIC PRIEST!

Quote:


It takes intelligent life to create order and structure. Believing in evolution is like believing a chimp could sit down at a typewriter and write out a Shakespearan sonnet just by random chance.
I'll post more with some notes from my apologetics class.


Why not.

And while you're at it, explain why it is that you cite no references other than what is in the bible?

And for your information: the theory goes that an infinite amount of monkeys infront of an infinite amount of typewriters will collectively at some point print out the collected works of Shakespeare... the reasoning, given the context (of which you are willfully or not, patently ignorant of), it means that given enough time, small and seemingly insignificant operations will create a greater whole.

http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/academy/universe/b_bang.html < big bang theory explanation
http://www.bigbang.org/ < the philosophy of the big bang
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/102-7369960-1911352 < more reading once you're ready to think outside the biblical box.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.


Re: pro evolutionists
Friday, July 22, 2005 10:01 PM on j-body.org
Only the limitations of the Human mind cause it to make up @!#$ (any religion) to explain why we are all here, because of those limitations you would find it impossible to imagine what really occurred at the start of our universe. Even Science can't explain everything about the creation of the universe. The human mind cant think in terms outside our own universe, if heaven is such a place where does it exist other than in your consciousness.

So since ppl cant "think outside the box" they think well there must be some higher power that made all this happen. What if there isnt? Since none of us are currently dead, nobody here can say they have the answer for sure. Religion and a belief in God is nothing more than a personal opinion of what you believe in. It isnt any more right or holy than someone that tells you your full of it to believe in such things, niether one has any REAL proof about how all this started



1989 Turbo Trans Am #82, 2007 Cobalt SS G85





Re: pro evolutionists
Friday, July 22, 2005 10:53 PM on j-body.org
Couple quick points to correct a couple errors in thinking.

The books of the Bible were written down seperately between 70AD and 100AD. The first translation was in 300AD.

Adam and Eve were the first people, not the only people and they had three sons. Everyone forgets Seth.

Some North American Indian tribes have global flood stories.

Interesting irony.. Scientific study was formalized and first vigorously pursued by Christians seeking salvation. Sir Francis Bacon is a prime example.

We had this arguement for about 37 pages, read that.

PAX
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