Several times now people in this thread have mentioned other ancient civlization's records of a big flood as further proof to Genesis's truth.
However, according to Genesis as I've read it, only the lives of Noah and his son's and their wives were sparred during the flood. This creates a huge hole in evidence itself, as their would be NO RECORD of a flood since those people recording it would of died as well.
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Adam and Eve were the first people,
Without using the christian bible as a reference, prove it. Cite other sources not directly related to the cristian religion. Besides, aren't you straying a bit from the original question, which was inquiring about evolutionary process of homo sapien?
Evolution, the big bang, is there an afterlife? Its all based on speculation and theory. Sure there may be some aspects of evidence that may support those theories, but said evidence could be equated to being not related to the theory -- grasping at air, so to say.
I tend to side with the alien theory. So far that makes the most sense.
heheh... whatever get you through the night.
Theories are postulations, but informed postulations. From there, we can find the traillings of an event, and figure out what happened from then on...
That is, unless you believe <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism">there is no spoon</a>.
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Kardain wrote:Quote:
Adam and Eve were the first people,
Without using the christian bible as a reference, prove it. Cite other sources not directly related to the cristian religion. Besides, aren't you straying a bit from the original question, which was inquiring about evolutionary process of homo sapien?
Evolution, the big bang, is there an afterlife? Its all based on speculation and theory. Sure there may be some aspects of evidence that may support those theories, but said evidence could be equated to being not related to the theory -- grasping at air, so to say.
I tend to side with the alien theory. So far that makes the most sense.
That was a direct response to a previous post that said if Adam and Eve were the only people, along with their sons, then how did Caine get a wife from the land of Nod. I explained that first doesn't mean only, the context was entirely a Biblical discussion.
Do you always jump without reading?
PAX
Global flood stories could be recorded by the generations that folowed Noah and his family. Similar to other oral histories, it is passed from generation to generation.
PAX
A global flood couldn't have happened... it would have meant that EVERY glacier, and the mass of the polar ice caps would have melted... however, that would have meant about a 14-15 degree celsius increase in temperatureworld wide, so the liklihood of even Noah and his animals surviving is remote at best.
If you took the story of Noah as immutable and uninterpretable, you would have had some very carnivorous creatures and some very herbivorous creatures living in VERY close quarters... Ask this:
1- Water? Ever seen an area where a flood ravaged an area? Ever thought of drinking the water without boilling it? okay.. that's for you and your family.. try to feed a pair of all the animals in the world that way for 40 days and nights. It's not happening.
2- Food? see 1.
3- Space? Has anyone given a minutiae of thought to how in the hell one would house all these animals and keep them afloat? Even now, with double hulled ships and freighters the length of 6-8 city blocks, you couldn't possibly house a pair of every animal, everywhere in the world. I'm sorry, this story earns the BS flag.
Also, the thing that would put the last nail in the coffin, EVEN IF there was a way to house all these animals, and not have them killing each other, AND if there was a way for the waters to retreat and miraculously leave buildings in Israel, in Greece, and farther north alone, how would you plausibly explain the fact that there has been mutation for species since biblical times, and other species that have in fact de-evolved (ie. reverted back to a much simpler structure)? It would seem that you cannot have a biblical theory that allows for prodean development after the fact.
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GAM is right.... the flood story as told in the Bible is impossible...
the story is just that, a story... the Bible story is just a rehash of several earlier stories with some details and names left out or replaced... the original was probably just a glorification of a past catastrophie on a local scale...
i dont know. every people in the world tell of a great flood. now true i dont believe in the
whole noah story but to many people all over the world speek of a great flood for it to be complete bs.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
There isn't any region of the world where people have settled near water that hasn't got a flood story or 2.
Think of the Mississippi delta flood plane...
The Nile delta
The Tiber, etc. etc.
All rivers over flow their banks at sometime or another, and sometimes more than others...
My point was, if there WAS such a flood, where did all the water go?
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Judging by the humidex reading around here lately, I'd say it's in the air.
Seriously though, it's God. God doesn't have to explain, and is not constrained to our line of thinking. If God did it, then God found a way. I'm not saying that the stories are true or not, only that if they are true, the facts don't have to make sense to us, only to the creator.
Global flood, exactly as written? Hmm, I dunno, first off, it seems petty unlikely. Second, why would God use such a mechanism? That said, massive extinctions and a lot of flooding? That may be more plausable.
PAX
Well, who knows what species die when there is a large flood.
For that matter, who knows what species are alive right now?
I'm not discounting that there was an epic flood, but a world wide flood? Hmm... I doubt that highly because there is no evidence of such a happening. IF it did happen, I'd think that there would be much in the way of evidence, that's not the kind of thing that can be covered up or swept under the rug as it were... Maybe I'm too analytical, but if the God of the old testament was at all responsible for the flood, I'd suspect he'd leave warning of totem and evidence.
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Well a global flood should kill just about everything except freshwater and brackish fish.. The sea dwelling creatures would be swamped with fresh water, and that would mess them up pretty badly. Of course, like Bill Cosby said in his "Noah" routine... "How long can you tread water?"
PAX
LOL... I don't think Freshwater fish can't survive long in salt water (much less brackish water) unless I'm wrong.
either way, a global flood would pretty much lay waste to everything, and when the flood waters receded, it would have left all the flotsam and jetsom on the ground... basically the world would be a swamp.
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considering the amount of salt water in the ocean... even if water appeared somehow from the air, glaciers, or God's arse, the overall water salinity would be more salty than fresh... 70% of the Earth is salt water to a depth of several miles in places... water deep enough to cover the Earth's land would only drop the ocean's salinity a little...
this global flood is impossible anyway since most fishes have a narrow salinity tolerance... only a few fishes can travel between salt and fresh water... if a freshwater species was suddenly exposed to brackish or saltwater (as would happen in a glbal flood) it would die immediately. All freshwater species would die out... same with most saltwater fishes and invertebrates... they would die if salinity dropped from like 35ppt to 25ppt. Just this alone discounts a global flood since this extinction never happened!
Gam the only evidence I can provide for the global flooding you refree to is when the
super contient of Pangea broke up and drifted into the continents as we know them today. According to the newest theriees out the earths land at one time was one gaint mass not the individual continents like now. They go on to theriorize that there was
probobly a large earthquake somewhere in the almost 10.0 catagory and this opened a fisher in the earths crust. Now under the land mass was supposed to be a large body
of water and when the quake happened the fisher caused a rupture in the lands
surface and the water came blasting out due to the emence weight the land was putting on it. And the water filled in the low lying land areas. Then came more quakes
due to the rapid and extreme weight shifts. These quakes that followed supposedly started the break up of the contients. Its also at this time that atlantis is said to have
been "swallowed up" by the sea.
I know atlantis is kinda reaching but this is not my theroy it is the theroy of the leading
scientists in this field. And don't forget that 10 years ago the city of Troy was thought
to be a mith also.
Global flooding can be explained thru science. But evolution as of yet can not.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Actually, Pangea was a super continent about 3 billion years ago.. it came about because of the turbidity currents in the mantle flowing in a similar direction. Africa more or less drifted (it's believed) in a clockwise rotation about 30 degrees when the turbidity currents forced the African/European plate and the Asia Major plate together (forming the alps and the Steppe mountains by subduction and upheaval respectively). Asia Minor (the mid-east) rotated more or less counter clockwise, but although there was some rubbing of continental plates, there wasn't the massive upheavals like you see in the himalayas. Also, the Mid East isn't a very seismicly active region, there are Quakes, and occasionally huge ones, but that happens maybe every 80-100 years.
Unless I'm WAY off base, humans didn't appear (in any semi-recognisable state) earlier than 90,000 years ago, and even then, I don't think building a boat and collecting the earth's animules would have been chiefly important.
Pangea and Noah (most probably) occurred at 2 orders of magnitude separation of each other (ie, 2 sets of 3 zeros
it's engineering notation, I can't help it), and at that, Pangea took about 600 million years to break up, so, any flood would probably not have been a big surprise after the initial shock.
Also, didn't the story of Noah denote that it rained for 40 days and nights?
The tales in the bible may or may not have been true, but science deals with what we can prove, and what we can infer, evolution is an inference, and if you notice, I never said there wasn't a God in the length of this discourse, I just said what the bible depicts is factually incorrect or patently impossible when dealing with the known physical world.
I have real problems with biblical and Christian science as a whole because it's relying on a very, very adulterated, edited, censored and re-written book. But, that's for another thread.
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The 40 days and 40 nights refered to in the bible are not the actual/correct translation
of the phrase to english. The phrase 40 days and 40 nights in the bible is used to
represent what was a long time not an actual 40 days and nights.
And if we are speaking about evolution then shouldn't the American Indians stories of this being the 7th earth be looked at as well? They say that the Earth along with man has been destroyed and re-born 6 times in the past and that this is the 7th time the
Earth has been "re-born". If thats the case and we know the scientists cant possibly
know how old the earth really is ( I say this because when they carbon date a snails shell thats still alive it comes back being thousands of years old ) then there is no
way they can say how long man/woman has been on it. This is one of the reasons I dismiss evolution as a crock.
The bible is just full of way too many "holes" in its story for it to be true either. I know
this is where "faith" comes in but "faith " can be argued is for the weak minded among
us that need something to comfort them.
This is way I try to remain neutral. I honestly don't believe either can be true the way its
stated. And if its not known to be true then why are our schools teaching it?
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Actually, carbon dating looks at the concentration of a certain carbon isotope in lichen, which is a very simple and (happily immutable) form of plant life that's been pretty stable since the formation of plant matter on the earth.
I think schools teach evolutionary theory as opposed to other theories because:
a: it's theories are flexible, and lead to more open studies that are not retarded by theological restraints (science doesn't ascribe to any central deity, it's the regimented pursuit of knowledge).
b: there are WAY too many theories about creation that are based on religions or other unsubstantiated stories. Science has worked from the known to learn and test the unknown.
c: religious theories about creation are mutable between sects, further increasing the permutations of biased and baseless ideas to teach.
Not all North American indian tribes believe in the birth and death of the world... some don't even have a theory of creation that is not linked with the world already being here.
Creation and Evolutionary theories differ in that Creationary theory is set, and if it is disproven, it is no longer a matter of faith, it's an instantly antiquated ideal. Science, if it should happen to prove creationary theory correct is not broken by that proof. It's part and parcel of the pursuit of knowledge.
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<sigh>
There have been at least 3 instances of Pangća in earth's history--thus rendering that moot.
The "global" floods were localized, but could have made a lot of sense. About the time that a lot of the flood legends seem to originate is at the tail end of the last great ice age...in which a lot of the glaciers melted and a lot of inland lakes--like lake Missoula, failed and emptied into the rivers and flooded everything.
However, consider as well that most, if not all ancient civilizations were settled at the mouths of rivers or near oceans and seashores.
Also consider that back in the ice age, seashores were up to 100+ miles offshore than where they are now.
What happened? Noah and his people were settled near the ancient shores of a river that would be the primary drainage for a glacier melt.
The glacier melted, leaving a glacial lake, which the dam to it failed.
back then, the "world" was incredibly local. After all, back in his day Alexander the Great conqured "the world", and back then they weren't careful enough to mean "the known world".
So, to Noah and his people, the flood happened, washed them and what they considered the whole world out.
Makes sense to me.
Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
IMHO i think all reigion is a bunch of crap, first off it was created to rule people before government, they used fear to control the masses, much like the american government is doing now. Also, more people have been killed in the name of god or allah than hitler killed during world war II. Hell the terrorist base there suicide bombings on religion, jihad is a "holy" war, look at all the sh*t religion starts. My god is the right god NO! my god is the right god, then they start fighting cause someone said there "god" was not the real god. Now before all you bible bangers jump down my neck, i was raised southern baptist which is one of the most conservative of all religions, i know my sh*t about the bible, i have read it twice, i was baptised and "saved" as a child. I just see all the sh*t that religion starts and i see all these people looking at me funny because i smoke, or have tattoos on my arms. And pretty much every "christian i have ever met thinks they are superior to me and anyone else, kind of like the jews(thats a whole other story), funny thing about that is everyone called natzis bad because they were killing the jews and such and proclaimed thereselves a superior race, well, the jews are the "self proclaimed children of god" is that not the same thing the natzis pulled? In essence religion is a big joke and all it does it start problems and give the human race a false sense of secrurity, again, like our great ol' American governemt. I dont dislike you if you are a christian or religious, to each his own, i do not look down on you for vbeing religious as you look down on me for not agreeing with writings of drunken men. If you are religious and you have made it this far in to my rant, i would be willing to bet my left testical you have thought "oh, he is going to hell". If you did, i rest my case so hard it hurts.
I also thought i remember reading somewhere they actually found the ark on the top of some mountain.
http://www.lafishmag.com/ark.html
here is the real link i was talkign about
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/04/0427_040427_noahsark.html
Please remember that no religion supports genocide. Many proponents of war have used religion as a convenient excuse. The real reason is greed. Jihad does not mean holy war, it is used to describe anything that is done passionately.
Don't blame religion, if everyone followed their docturn, there wouldn't be these problems. Greed is the real problem. Religion was not created to control people either, but it proved to be a good mechanism. The first religions would have come from peoples wonder when looking at creation.
PAX
So, in other words, don't hate the religion, hate the folowers that bastardize it...
Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Well ya.. If you read just about any religious texts from any major religion (Anton Levey's followers do not figure into this
) They all boil down to the idea that if you are good to each other and recognise the creator, you are on the right path.
Christianity specificly staes that you should love all of God's creation, including your enemies, as you love yourself. You are told that all people are equal before God. You are loved equally as God's children. What does that have to do with killing each other?!?
PAX
how long is this one gonna get fellas? lol... All I know is that GAM is saying what I would say, therefore, saving me typing... thanks!
