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Re: Global Warming
Thursday, October 06, 2005 8:56 AM on j-body.org
...is anyone else, in the Wake of Katrina, St. Helens, Pinatubo, Indonesia, et al, hearing a voice inside your head saying "@!#$ YOUR COUCH!!!!" repeated en masse?


Goodbye Callisto & Skaši, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

Re: Global Warming
Thursday, October 06, 2005 10:30 AM on j-body.org
Nathaniel wrote:the pollution from our autos and industry like i said has %100 capability to cause a global warming trend. but we do not know wether the amount we are introducing into the environment is enough to be causing our current warming trend.

ive said it MULTIPLE times. i am not sure what part you are confused at what i am saying...



as for funding... u TOTALLY misunderstood the word funding.

i am talking about WHO funds the reseach data u could be looking at. if u do not know WHO funded the research u basically have to throw away the results from your mind. since it could be a TOTALLY biased set of bad science data. and fact is ALOT of the science out there is BAD SCIENCE. meaningpurposely finding an answer that is WANTED by their founding bodies.


Dude, I can read just as well as you. You said that NOBODY on this thread was saying that humans are behind global warming, when in reality there are SEVERAL - REREAD my post!. That was the beef I had with your reply to my rant. You keep saying capability/possibility multiple times, but then use words such as FACT and IS when only 'maybe' and 'possibility' are valid in this debate. NOBODY knows for sure - circumstantial evidence does not equal FACT. The only fact we can be sure of is that we're not sure of anything.

As for the funding issue, you either don't have the first clue about what you're talking about, or you work in/went to school in the scientific version of hell. It doesn't matter one tiny bit WHO funded the research. Good science is done by intelligent scientists (people), not by the organizations who fund it. For instance, when I did my masters I was fully funded by NSERC - no I don't know the people who run it personally, but they didn't come to me giving me a list of the final results they wanted me to publish, either. My supervisors didn't interfere in the least even when I found things never before observed - they did their best to help me out and keep me focused, but didn't do any thinking for me - it's called good science, and the VAST majority of research is done this way! Any biases put into good research are put their by the scientists who are doing that research. Purposefully finding an answer WANTED by their founding bodies? You don't seriously think that's common, do you? I'm a scientist who has worked both in academia and in industry, and the only thing WANTED by the people who signed the cheques were answers to different problems. How many "scientists" do you know who ignore blatant evidence to come up with an answer their boss likes? Other experts in that field CERTAINLY wouldn't find it hard to call them on it and reveal them as frauds (that's what editors, reviewers, symposiums, conferences are there for).
Yes there are bad scientists out there, and yes there is a fair-share of bad science, but the whole purpose of having a scientific community is to weed these guys out.


Open your mind - shoot your TV.
Re: Global Warming
Thursday, October 06, 2005 10:57 AM on j-body.org
Quote:

Dude, I can read just as well as you. You said that NOBODY on this thread was saying that humans are behind global warming, when in reality there are SEVERAL - REREAD my post!. That was the beef I had with your reply to my rant. You keep saying capability/possibility multiple times, but then use words such as FACT and IS when only 'maybe' and 'possibility' are valid in this debate. NOBODY knows for sure - circumstantial evidence does not equal FACT. The only fact we can be sure of is that we're not sure of anything.


u obviously cant read since i actually said:

"i dont think anyone in this thread has said or claimed that all of the warming is being causes by human factors."

and wow bro if u cant understand what im saying, i dont know what to tell you...

IT IS FACT:a rise in green house gases = higher temps in that given environment. that is plain and simple.

IT IS FACT: our autos and industry create pollution that RAISE GREEN HOUSE GASES

now that those FACTS are stated it would be logical ot presume that OUR pollution has %100 capability of causing a warming trend. we just do not know if the amount we have introduced or if any amount that we COULD introduce into the environment would be enough to actual cause a VISIBLE warming. we do know that it IS a possibility given the FACTS.

i really cant figure out what ur not understanding

Quote:

As for the funding issue, you either don't have the first clue about what you're talking about, or you work in/went to school in the scientific version of hell. It doesn't matter one tiny bit WHO funded the research. Good science is done by intelligent scientists (people), not by the organizations who fund it. For instance, when I did my masters I was fully funded by NSERC - no I don't know the people who run it personally, but they didn't come to me giving me a list of the final results they wanted me to publish, either. My supervisors didn't interfere in the least even when I found things never before observed - they did their best to help me out and keep me focused, but didn't do any thinking for me - it's called good science, and the VAST majority of research is done this way! Any biases put into good research are put their by the scientists who are doing that research. Purposefully finding an answer WANTED by their founding bodies? You don't seriously think that's common, do you? I'm a scientist who has worked both in academia and in industry, and the only thing WANTED by the people who signed the cheques were answers to different problems. How many "scientists" do you know who ignore blatant evidence to come up with an answer their boss likes? Other experts in that field CERTAINLY wouldn't find it hard to call them on it and reveal them as frauds (that's what editors, reviewers, symposiums, conferences are there for).
Yes there are bad scientists out there, and yes there is a fair-share of bad science, but the whole purpose of having a scientific community is to weed these guys out.
Open your mind - shoot your TV.


u obviously have had NO experience in CRITICAL RESEARCH involving the life of a multimillion dollar bussiness or industry.

and just so u know i work in a environmental laboratory as IT man. 6+ years

anyways, if ur a scientist and u are sayign that pollitically backed or money backed bad science doesnt exsist then

this is from SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN:
Uncertainty is an inherent problem of science, but manufactured uncertainty is another matter entirely. Over the past three decades, industry groups have frequently become involved in the investigative process when their interests are threatened. If, for example, studies show that a company is exposing its workers to dangerous levels of a certain chemical, the business typically responds by hiring its own researchers to cast doubt on the studies. Or if a pharmaceutical firm faces questions about the safety of one of its drugs, its executives trumpet company-sponsored trials that show no significant health risks while ignoring or hiding other studies that are much less reassuring. The vilification of threatening research as "junk science" and the corresponding sanctification of industry-commissioned research as "sound science" has become nothing less than standard operating procedure in some parts of corporate America.
and heres a link to it if u dont believe me
http://www.sciamdigital.com/browse.cfm?sequencenameCHAR=item2&methodnameCHAR=resource_getitembrowse&interfacenameCHAR=browse.cfm&ISSUEID_CHAR=B38CE21A-2B35-221B-67096ED4BD9F95F7&ARTICL EID_CHAR=B3AF7D6A-2B35-221B-601840861CEDAFE1&sc=I100322






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Re: Global Warming
Thursday, October 06, 2005 1:07 PM on j-body.org
THE SKY IS FALLING, THE SKY IS FALLING !!!!!!




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.



Re: Global Warming
Thursday, October 06, 2005 2:03 PM on j-body.org
Nathaniel,

The stupid quote function just isn't working for me today, so bear with me. The first post of this thread had a link which stated that human climate change caused a shift in global warming trends (within the last 3-4 years if I remember correctly), resulting in a runaway global warming trend that's melting the permafrost. I read that as saying that humanity was the sole reason why this natural cycle was supposedly thrown off-course. You can argue this point, but I think it shows that at least 1 person on this thread seriously believed it to be true.

As for greenhouse gases, we're releasing greenhouse gases into the atmosphere? Holy crap, batman!! I had no idea we were doing that! Just about everything on Earth does, and it's been that way for billions of years. Now for the twist - how the hell can you say with certainty that humanity is truly altering these natural cycles, and that our emissions are really affecting anything? I think that we're probably affecting something (at least a little), but who knows for sure? There are so many factors, including tectonic processes and presence/efficiencies of carbon sinks, that it's pretty hard to say anything with certainty. The TRUE experts working on this problem can't agree on very much, so how in the hell can someone like you (in IT) pretend that you're an expert? You're not a geographer, climatologist, or a geologist - you're nothing more than a computer geek. You talk about critical research as though you actually do some as an IT guy, and then pretend to know something because you work on computers in an environmental lab? Sorry, Nat - there's a word for people like you - poseur. I'm sure you've probably picked up a thing or two from the REAL scientists that work in your lab over the past 6 years, but you are by no means any kind of expert just because you deal with IT in an enviro lab. Have you personally been involved in any environmental research - by that, I mean going out and collecting data, analysing the data and coming up with meaningful interpretations? If so, I would be very interested to read your findings. I would be very surprised if you do, seeing that none of the IT people I know here who work for oil and gas companies have the first clue about oil or gas. If you have actually contributed to the thinking-aspect of environmental research, by all means point us to your work.

That being said, I have PLENTY of experience in critical research as a scientist (FACT). For one thing, I'm a geologist (2 degrees worth, +~5 years of experience (another FACT)). I in NO WAY pretend to be an expert on global warming (FACT #3), but I am quite familiar with both sides of the argument (hey, I'm a geologist - it's one of the things we work on). I have worked for universities doing research (including work on paleoclimate (predominantly Devonian), and the factors that affect it), my masters dealt with the environmental factors that were involved in the formation of a late Precambrian stromatolite reef (which formed soon after the last Snowball-Earth episode), I have worked for the Saskatchewan provincial government doing geological research, mineral exploration and mapping, and have been in Calgary working in the oil and gas industry, DOING RESEARCH, for the last couple of years! I have presented my findings at a half-dozen international conferences, have written scientific articles, and will continue to do so. If you don't think that's critical research, then I don't know what to tell you...

Regarding your last rant on politically backed bad science ("anyways, if ur a scientist and u are sayign that pollitically backed or money backed bad science doesnt exsist then "), instead of trying to insult me by telling me that I don't know how to read, you should reread the last line in my last post ("Yes there are bad scientists out there, and yes there is a fair-share of bad science, but the whole purpose of having a scientific community is to weed these guys out".). I ALREADY AGREED THAT IT EXISTS!!!. Geez, you make it sound like 1 in 20 scientists are untainted, which is total crap. I can see something as politically/economically sensitive as research on pollution/emission control potentially being meddled with by politicians, but there are several other potential sources of funding that can be used to avoid that.
FIY, I work as a geologist for a geological consulting company (multi-million dollar operation), and my girlfriend works as a geologist/hydrogeologist at an environmental consulting company (again a multimillion dollar operation). Such companies exist to ensure that research is done in an objective, unbiased, non-influenced manner. We have little to gain by giving clients biased data - my job is to find answers to their questions, and provide expert advice to their problems - what they do with the results is up to them. It's likely similar to what goes on in your lab, but after reading your last post I have doubts as to the credibility of your lab.

One thing we likely both agree on is that insulting each other and arguing about petty crap (basically a stupid pissing contest) that has nothing to do with the REAL problems caused by pollution etc. is a complete waste of effort on both our parts.





Free your mind - shoot your TV.
Re: Global Warming
Thursday, October 06, 2005 5:42 PM on j-body.org
unholysavage wrote:Nathaniel,

The stupid quote function just isn't working for me today, so bear with me. The first post of this thread had a link which stated that human climate change caused a shift in global warming trends (within the last 3-4 years if I remember correctly), resulting in a runaway global warming trend that's melting the permafrost. I read that as saying that humanity was the sole reason why this natural cycle was supposedly thrown off-course. You can argue this point, but I think it shows that at least 1 person on this thread seriously believed it to be true.


k, maybe1. but u were still adressing everyone as if we all thought this way, when myself and others clearly did not.

Quote:


As for greenhouse gases, we're releasing greenhouse gases into the atmosphere? Holy crap, batman!! I had no idea we were doing that! Just about everything on Earth does, and it's been that way for billions of years.


really?? by golly i didnt know.

Quote:

Now for the twist - how the hell can you say with certainty that humanity is truly altering these natural cycles, and that our emissions are really affecting anything?

i specifically said that i am uncertain wether the amount we are introducing is enough to see a visible effect.

Quote:


I think that we're probably affecting something (at least a little), but who knows for sure?

what the hell. this is exactly what i have been saying the time

Quote:

The TRUE experts working on this problem can't agree on very much, so how in the hell can someone like you (in IT) pretend that you're an expert?

never once have i pretended to be an expert. u do nto have to be an expert to post KNOWN facts. which is what i did.

Quote:


You're not a geographer, climatologist, or a geologist - you're nothing more than a computer geek. You talk about critical research as though you actually do some as an IT guy, and then pretend to know something because you work on computers in an environmental lab? Sorry, Nat - there's a word for people like you - poseur. I'm sure you've probably picked up a thing or two from the REAL scientists that work in your lab over the past 6 years, but you are by no means any kind of expert just because you deal with IT in an enviro lab. Have you personally been involved in any environmental research - by that, I mean going out and collecting data, analysing the data and coming up with meaningful interpretations? If so, I would be very interested to read your findings. I would be very surprised if you do, seeing that none of the IT people I know here who work for oil and gas companies have the first clue about oil or gas. If you have actually contributed to the thinking-aspect of environmental research, by all means point us to your work.

i am by far no expert or a scientist. nor have i stated otherwise. however, u should keep ur lips shut before u speak when assuming i know nothing in my companies field.

i worked 2 years in the bacterial analysis department as well as now being a certified mold and fungal analyst.

so while this does not relate to this discussion i am proving my point in which just because the IT GUYS YOU KNOW have no experience in the companies field they work for, does not mean I would not.

so i believe your foot is planted firmly in your mouth on that subject.


also, i would like to see ur published research work if u have links.





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Re: Global Warming
Tuesday, October 11, 2005 10:03 PM on j-body.org
Nat,
If you read any of my threads you'd realize that never ONCE disagreed with you when we talked about humanity f#cking up the environment and possily/probably helping this warming trend. How much (if any) is clearly unknown (which you also stated). We weren't arguing about that, anyway.
Now....

Nathaniel wrote:
i am by far no expert or a scientist. nor have i stated otherwise. however, u should keep ur lips shut before u speak when assuming i know nothing in my companies field.

i worked 2 years in the bacterial analysis department as well as now being a certified mold and fungal analyst.

so while this does not relate to this discussion i am proving my point in which just because the IT GUYS YOU KNOW have no experience in the companies field they work for, does not mean I would not.

so i believe your foot is planted firmly in your mouth on that subject.


also, i would like to see ur published research work if u have links.


This is the part where I'm not terribly happy with you. You weren't even trying to prove a point - you were trying to backtrack when I called you a fraud. If you really weren't trying to pawn yourself off as an expert, then please tell all of us why you tried to pass yourself off as one when you threw in that statement trying to bash and belittle me with your "6+ years" of IT experience working for an enviro lab?
If you don't remember what you initially said, here it is:

Nathaniel wrote:

u obviously have had NO experience in CRITICAL RESEARCH involving the life of a multimillion dollar bussiness or industry.

and just so u know i work in a environmental laboratory as IT man. 6+ years


You couldn't seriously believe for 1 second that your bluff wouldn't be called, did you? There is no question you probably learned some things working IT, but that was pretty petty trying to use your IT experience to attempt to make me look bad. You can think that I have my feet in my mouth all you want, but there's no question that you must have your entire head up your @ss when you think you can get away with b.s. like that to make others look inferior. The fact that you tried using that as a trump card in our argument makes me shake my head in disbelief. You really can't tell anybody to shut their lips when you try that kind of crap.

It doesn't matter a damn bit anyway, because my argument with you over these petty things is over. Our time is better wasted doing something else (even if that means arguing about something else in another thread).

FIY, I found some links to some of the reports I have written or been intimately involved in. Be forewarned - geology isn't the most exciting science there is, and you probably will be ready for bed after reading the title
The first three articles were done while doing my undergrad at the University of Saskatchewan (I was the senior field assistant for these mapping projects). They're economic geology/bedrock mapping reports.
http://www.ir.gov.sk.ca/adx/asp/adxGetMedia.asp?DocID=4470,4285,3442,3440,3385,2936,Documents&MediaID=10438&Filename=Delaney%2cSavage_1998_MiscRep98-4.pdf
http://www.ir.gov.sk.ca/adx/asp/adxGetMedia.asp?DocID=4472,4285,3442,3440,3385,2936,Documents&MediaID=10480&Filename=Yeo%2cSavage_1999_volume2_MiscRep99-4.2.pdf
http://www.ir.gov.sk.ca/adx/asp/adxGetMedia.asp?DocID=4363,3980,3442,3440,3385,2936,Documents&MediaID=8651&Filename=Harper.pdf

I haven't heard back from my friend who did her M.Sc (R. Hines) at the U of S on Devonian ocean chemistry and paleoenvironment, so I can't point you in the direction of the article she was writing (if it was even published - I left just before she finished, and was little more than a grunt anyway). You can try her supervisor's web page (Dr. Chris Holmden) at the Department of Geological Sciences at U Sask. - maybe it's listed there.

I have several abstracts for various conferences I attended, but can only find a couple links to the Geological Association of Canada conferences I attended:
http://gac.esd.mun.ca/gac_2002/search_abs/sub_program.asp?sess=98&form=10&abs_no=265
http://www.eps.mcgill.ca/~hofmann/Sava03-603.pdf
If you go to the Earth and Planetary Sciences webpage at McGill and look up Dr. Eric Mountjoy or Dr. Hans Hofmann (2 of my 3 supervisors), they probably have the others referenced.

As for my masters, the title of it is "Terminal Proterozoic stromatolite reefs with shelly fossils, Salient Platform, British Columbia". It isn't online, so the only copies you could possibly get ahold of would be from my supervisors at McGill. It's a 276 page sleeping pill that will eventually be turned into at least 2 journal articles (it's not easy to write when you work full-time...). If you truly dislike me, you'd be better off waiting for the articles to come out.

Until the next argument,
Derek.




Free your mind - shoot your TV.
Re: Global Warming
Wednesday, October 12, 2005 8:57 AM on j-body.org
unholysavage wrote:

Nathaniel wrote:
i am by far no expert or a scientist. nor have i stated otherwise. however, u should keep ur lips shut before u speak when assuming i know nothing in my companies field.

i worked 2 years in the bacterial analysis department as well as now being a certified mold and fungal analyst.

so while this does not relate to this discussion i am proving my point in which just because the IT GUYS YOU KNOW have no experience in the companies field they work for, does not mean I would not.

so i believe your foot is planted firmly in your mouth on that subject.


also, i would like to see ur published research work if u have links.


This is the part where I'm not terribly happy with you. You weren't even trying to prove a point - you were trying to backtrack when I called you a fraud. If you really weren't trying to pawn yourself off as an expert, then please tell all of us why you tried to pass yourself off as one when you threw in that statement trying to bash and belittle me with your "6+ years" of IT experience working for an enviro lab?
If you don't remember what you initially said, here it is:


this would be why: because u said this

Quote:

As for the funding issue, you either don't have the first clue about what you're talking about, or you work in/went to school in the scientific version of hell. It doesn't matter one tiny bit WHO funded the research.


and i was completely flabbergasted that someone could actually think that the funding of a research project has no effect. but i guess maybe YOUR right and SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN IS WRONG...

then u said
Quote:

when I did my masters I was fully funded by NSERC

along with a few other comments on your scientist background and education.

so i had EVERY right to ALSO give a tidbit of my field and education.wasnt trying to make u feel inferior, but letting u know that i am not a HS dropout or somethign and if ur sayign somethign incorrect im goign to call you on it.

Quote:


Nathaniel wrote:

u obviously have had NO experience in CRITICAL RESEARCH involving the life of a multimillion dollar bussiness or industry.

and just so u know i work in a environmental laboratory as IT man. 6+ years


You couldn't seriously believe for 1 second that your bluff wouldn't be called, did you? There is no question you probably learned some things working IT, but that was pretty petty trying to use your IT experience to attempt to make me look bad.


BLUFF??? what bluff. u must not read my last post i guess. because i explained i know MORE about my company then just being an IT person which u ASSUMED is all i knew.

further more i wasnt trying to make u look bad, u gave background on your work and education so i gave some on mine. plain and simple.

ill tell you again:

i worked 2 years in the bacterial analysis department as well as now being a certified mold and fungal analyst.


so u were wrong in your continued assumption i knew nothing in the company and field i work for as a IT man.



but anyways, we got into this deeper argument because u tried saying that funding on research plays no outcome int he results.

i have no need to argue about this anymore.

SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN already stated the same things i stated...

if ur right.. maybe you should work for scientific american eh?







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Re: Global Warming
Wednesday, October 12, 2005 10:58 PM on j-body.org
I don't mind Scientific America (it's not what I would call a "rigorously" scrutinized journal, but more of a glamourized, poorly refereed scientific collection), but that article seems to be the source of your conspiracy theory that every source of funding has some kind of hidden agenda. I guess I'm not as easily convinced by things I read in books - there's some truth in everything you hear/read (to some extent), but it's never wise to believe every word you read. I'm pretty happy being a petroleum geologist, and have no desire to work for a journal that glorifies (and exaggerates) certain aspects of science but not others (yes - if you do enough research you will quickly realize that SA is quite biased). If you had read my earlier posts, you would have noticed that I agreed that shady dealings have occurred and do occur, but you make it out to be some kind of scientific cesspool where 1 in 100 scientific findings are credible (which is way off). You only seem to look at the people funding the research and completely ignore the actual scientists who do the work. Just because shady suits are funding a project doesn't necessarily mean that the results will be useless - I find it incredible that you believe that. I have had absolutely no experience with any of this political crap (and I've been all over the board, geology-experience wise - from paleontology to mineral exploration to sedimentology to petroleum exploration), and the professionals I work with only very rarely speak of rumours about people's funding getting cut (or get fired) because their results weren't in "tune" with their bosses/supervisors/"funding agencies". Maybe that kind of crap happens to production geologists (who deal with reserves etc), but none of my friends have complained. I just haven't been unlucky enough to have dealt with crap like that, or maybe this kind of corruption is just far more prevalent in the USA than here. I can't answer that.
I also didn't say that you knew nothing about your company - I said that it didn't make you an environmental expert and to stop trying to think that you can talk down to people to prove your points. I'm referring to your 6+ years statement - maybe I took it the wrong way, but with the way you've been continually giving me this "holier-than-thou" attitude I sincerely doubt it. I only mentioned my masters as an example of how my supervisors DIDN'T bias my research results - it was in no way an attempt to belittle everyone (hell, just about everyone has a masters these days).
But you're right - this back and forth pissing contest is useless.
Until the next battle - you bring your Scientific America and your experience, and I promise to bring a thing or two to counter it.




Free your mind - shoot your TV.
Re: Global Warming
Wednesday, October 12, 2005 11:15 PM on j-body.org
unholysavage wrote:I don't mind Scientific America (it's not what I would call a "rigorously" scrutinized journal, but more of a glamourized, poorly refereed scientific collection), but that article seems to be the source of your conspiracy theory that every source of funding has some kind of hidden agenda.


i never ONCE said EVERY source of funding causes biased data. and if i said that, well id shoot myself prompty becuase that would be stupid.

Quote:


I guess I'm not as easily convinced by things I read in books - there's some truth in everything you hear/read (to some extent), but it's never wise to believe every word you read. I'm pretty happy being a petroleum geologist, and have no desire to work for a journal that glorifies (and exaggerates) certain aspects of science but not others (yes - if you do enough research you will quickly realize that SA is quite biased). If you had read my earlier posts, you would have noticed that I agreed that shady dealings have occurred and do occur, but you make it out to be some kind of scientific cesspool where 1 in 100 scientific findings are credible (which is way off).

depends on what field the study is being done in. when it comes to global warming issues, id say yes, a large portion (note this does not mean all or most. a LARGE portion is all) of the findings would be slanted one way or the other. or if they arent slanted they arent reported and made to disappear.

if we are talking about scientific research in general in all its forms and severitys and amounts of fundings, id say the majority is GOOD science.

Quote:



You only seem to look at the people funding the research and completely ignore the actual scientists who do the work. Just because shady suits are funding a project doesn't necessarily mean that the results will be useless - I find it incredible that you believe that.


i DONT believe this

....

however, something ur not taking into consideration is the TYPE of scientists shady suits would hire. so while there ARE scientists who even if funded by a biased party would still report accurate data, those are not the scientists these companys or parties would pick.
Quote:


I have had absolutely no experience with any of this political crap (and I've been all over the board, geology-experience wise - from paleontology to mineral exploration to sedimentology to petroleum exploration), and the professionals I work with only very rarely speak of rumours about people's funding getting cut (or get fired) because their results weren't in "tune" with their bosses/supervisors/"funding agencies". Maybe that kind of crap happens to production geologists (who deal with reserves etc), but none of my friends have complained. I just haven't been unlucky enough to have dealt with crap like that, or maybe this kind of corruption is just far more prevalent in the USA than here. I can't answer that.


i CAN. it is WAAAYYYY more prevelant in the states. TRUST ME

Quote:


I also didn't say that you knew nothing about your company - I said that it didn't make you an environmental expert and to stop trying to think that you can talk down to people to prove your points. I'm referring to your 6+ years statement - maybe I took it the wrong way, but with the way you've been continually giving me this "holier-than-thou" attitude I sincerely doubt it. I only mentioned my masters as an example of how my supervisors DIDN'T bias my research results - it was in no way an attempt to belittle everyone (hell, just about everyone has a masters these days).


like i said, i only gave my background info because u did it. if ur going to chime in your experience and educ. i will to.





but honestly u hit it on the head when u made the comment about the states. we arent going to even be abel to talk about this ebcause the environment in the science field just isnt the same between here and CAN.

same thign happened when i was debatign with gam about farm standards... they are DRASTICALLY diff. so when i made comments he was countering with them from facts about CAN. practices. i come to find out, id MUCH rather be an animal in CAN then the US ANY DAY.

same goes for being a scientist.





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Re: Global Warming
Saturday, October 15, 2005 7:43 PM on j-body.org
Wow, I can't believe it - after weeks of arguing I think I actually see eye to eye with you on this one. That truly sucks if alot of the science in the states is badly biased by suits with agendas. I just hope Canada doesn't go down the same path, cuz that's stress nobody needs.

On a side note, I'm quite curious to hear how farming practices etc differ from Canada. I was born and raised on a farm (mixed grain and beef-cattle), and this whole BSE ("mad-cow") disaster really hit my parents hard. I might just start a thread to find out what people (city and country people alike) think about today's modern farmers and the economics controlling them.

Cheers,
Derek.




Free your mind - shoot your TV.

Re: Global Warming
Thursday, January 26, 2006 8:39 AM on j-body.org
"As predicted, 2005 was the hottest year since accurate temperature recording began in the late 1800s. This news is all the more interesting because 2005 was not an "El Nińo" year like 1998, the previous record holder."

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/2005/






Re: Global Warming
Thursday, January 26, 2006 8:51 AM on j-body.org
January 9, 2006 · Icebreakers -- heavy ships designed to carve a path through frozen waterways -- are needed to keep winter maritime traffic moving. But this year, the U.S. fleet of two heavy icebreakers is at port in Seattle.

Ice caps are melting

Permafrost is melting

Glaciers are melting

Polar Bears are starving

Ocean temps are rising



How much can our ecosystem take? Could we withstand the full brunt of losing all off the polar caps? could the melting of the caps possibly cause the realease of the proper gasses, and generate new foilage to start healing the earths climate system?




Re: Global Warming
Thursday, January 26, 2006 8:57 AM on j-body.org
The earth has been through it before--far before us hairless apes were even on the planet.

We deal with this, or we as a specie die.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaši, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Re: Global Warming
Thursday, January 26, 2006 10:35 AM on j-body.org
HOLY POSTS BACK FROM THE DEAD BATMAN !!!!! Dude there is ZERO hard evidence that the temps riseing are a direct result of what us as the dominate idiots on this planet are doing. Sure theres bunches of guessing going on but thats all it is.

How do these "experts" know for sure that the Earth isn't just comeing out of a mini ice age thats been going on since we started keeping records ? They don't they can't, they're guessing.

The Earth has been heating up and cooling down Looooong before we got here. So whats to say this isn't just the norm ? Sorry chicken little but I'm not quite ready to join in yelling the sky is falling.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.



Re: Global Warming
Thursday, January 26, 2006 11:04 AM on j-body.org
Jackalope wrote:
OH NO LOOK OUT THE SKY ITS FALLING RUN FOR YOUR LIVES !!!!!!!





Re: Global Warming
Thursday, January 26, 2006 11:54 AM on j-body.org
Sarcasm eludes you then does it not ?




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.



Re: Global Warming
Thursday, April 06, 2006 12:42 PM on j-body.org
Climate Researchers Feeling Heat From White House


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/05/AR2006040502150_pf.html

By Juliet Eilperin
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, April 6, 2006; A27



Scientists doing climate research for the federal government say the Bush administration has made it hard for them to speak forthrightly to the public about global warming. The result, the researchers say, is a danger that Americans are not getting the full story on how the climate is changing.

Employees and contractors working for the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, along with a U.S. Geological Survey scientist working at an NOAA lab, said in interviews that over the past year administration officials have chastised them for speaking on policy questions; removed references to global warming from their reports, news releases and conference Web sites; investigated news leaks; and sometimes urged them to stop speaking to the media altogether. Their accounts indicate that the ideological battle over climate-change research, which first came to light at NASA, is being fought in other federal science agencies as well.

These scientists -- working nationwide in research centers in such places as Princeton, N.J., and Boulder, Colo. -- say they are required to clear all media requests with administration officials, something they did not have to do until the summer of 2004. Before then, point climate researchers -- unlike staff members in the Justice or State departments, which have long-standing policies restricting access to reporters -- were relatively free to discuss their findings without strict agency oversight.

"There has been a change in how we're expected to interact with the press," said Pieter Tans, who measures greenhouse gases linked to global warming and has worked at NOAA's Earth System Research Laboratory in Boulder for two decades. He added that although he often "ignores the rules" the administration has instituted, when it comes to his colleagues, "some people feel intimidated -- I see that."

Christopher Milly, a hydrologist at the U.S. Geological Survey, said he had problems twice while drafting news releases on scientific papers describing how climate change would affect the nation's water supply.

Once in 2002, Milly said, Interior officials declined to issue a news release on grounds that it would cause "great problems with the department." In November 2005, they agreed to issue a release on a different climate-related paper, Milly said, but "purged key words from the releases, including 'global warming,' 'warming climate' and 'climate change.' "

Administration officials said they are following long-standing policies that were not enforced in the past. Kent Laborde, a NOAA public affairs officer who flew to Boulder last month to monitor an interview Tans did with a film crew from the BBC, said he was helping facilitate meetings between scientists and journalists.

"We've always had the policy, it just hasn't been enforced," Laborde said. "It's important that the leadership knows something is coming out in the media, because it has a huge impact. The leadership needs to know the tenor or the tone of what we expect to be printed or broadcast."

Several times, however, agency officials have tried to alter what these scientists tell the media. When Tans was helping to organize the Seventh International Carbon Dioxide Conference near Boulder last fall, his lab director told him participants could not use the term "climate change" in conference paper's titles and abstracts. Tans and others disregarded that advice.

None of the scientists said political appointees had influenced their research on climate change or disciplined them for questioning the administration. Indeed, several researchers have received bigger budgets in recent years because President Bush has focused on studying global warming rather than curbing greenhouse gases. NOAA's budget for climate research and services is now $250 million, up from $241 million in 2004.

The assertion that climate scientists are being censored first surfaced in January when James Hansen, who directs NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies, told the New York Times and The Washington Post that the administration sought to muzzle him after he gave a lecture in December calling for cuts in emissions of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases. (NASA Administrator Michael D. Griffin issued new rules recently that make clear that its scientists are free to talk to members of the media about their scientific findings and to express personal interpretations of those findings.

Two weeks later, Hansen suggested to an audience at the New School University in New York that his counterparts at NOAA were experiencing even more severe censorship. "It seems more like Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union than the United States," he told the crowd.

NOAA Administrator Conrad C. Lautenbacher Jr. responded by sending an agency-wide e-mail that said he is "a strong believer in open, peer-reviewed science as well as the right and duty of scientists to seek the truth and to provide the best scientific advice possible."

"I encourage our scientists to speak freely and openly," he added. "We ask only that you specify when you are communicating personal views and when you are characterizing your work as part of your specific contribution to NOAA's mission."

NOAA scientists, however, cite repeated instances in which the administration played down the threat of climate change in their documents and news releases. Although Bush and his top advisers have said that Earth is warming and human activity has contributed to this, they have questioned some predictions and caution that mandatory limits on carbon dioxide could damage the nation's economy.

In 2002, NOAA agreed to draft a report with Australian researchers aimed at helping reef managers deal with widespread coral bleaching that stems from higher sea temperatures. A March 2004 draft report had several references to global warming, including "Mass bleaching . . . affects reefs at regional to global scales, and has incontrovertibly linked to increases in sea temperature associated with global change."

A later version, dated July 2005, drops those references and several others mentioning climate change.

NOAA has yet to release the report on coral bleaching. James R. Mahoney, assistant secretary of commerce for oceans and atmosphere, said he decided in late 2004 to delay the report because "its scientific basis was so inadequate." Now that it is revised, he said, he is waiting for the Australian Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority to approve it. "I just did not think it was ready for prime time," Mahoney said. "It was not just about climate change -- there were a lot of things."

On other occasions, Mahoney and other NOAA officials have told researchers not to give their opinions on policy matters. Konrad Steffen directs the Cooperative Institute for Research in Environmental Sciences at the University of Colorado at Boulder, a joint NOAA-university institute with a $40 million annual budget. Steffen studies the Greenland ice sheet, and when his work was cited last spring in a major international report on climate change in the Arctic, he and another NOAA lab director from Alaska received a call from Mahoney in which he told them not to give reporters their opinions on global warming.

Steffen said that he told him that although Mahoney has considerable leverage as "the person in command for all research money in NOAA . . . I was not backing down."

Mahoney said he had "no recollection" of the conversation, which took place in a conference call. "It's virtually inconceivable that I would have called him about this," Mahoney said, though he added: "For those who are government employees, our position is they should not typically render a policy view."

Tans, whose interviews with the BBC crew were monitored by Laborde, said Laborde has not tried to interfere with the interviews. But Tans said he did not understand why he now needs an official "minder" from Washington to observe his discussions with the media. "It used to be we could say, 'Okay, you're welcome to come in, let's talk,' " he said. "There was never anything of having to ask permission of anybody."

The need for clearance from Washington, several NOAA scientists said, amounts to a "pocket veto" allowing administration officials to block interviews by not giving permission in time for journalists' deadlines.

Ronald Stouffer, a climate research scientist at NOAA's Geophysical Fluid Dynamics Laboratory in Princeton, estimated his media requests have dropped in half because it took so long to get clearance to talk from NOAA headquarters. Thomas Delworth, one of Stouffer's colleagues, said the policy means Americans have only "a partial sense" of what government scientists have learned about climate change.

"American taxpayers are paying the bill, and they have a right to know what we're doing," he said.

Researcher Eddy Palanzo contributed to this report





Re: Global Warming
Thursday, April 06, 2006 1:54 PM on j-body.org
Maybe the adminastration doesn't want to enduce a panic that can not be prooven.
Untill scientists can find someone who is several thousand years old to get first hand knowledge of what happened long ago then all they are doing is recording the temp and guessing at whats makeing it happen. Why panic the general public over something they do not exactly whats going on?

The Bush adminastration has been pissing me off as of late but as I've said dozens of times before, we have no idea what the Earth does or goes thu in terms of climate shift.
Hell we just recently found out that magnetic north is actualy shifted from where it used to be! Thats right your compass no longer points to the same place your grandfathers did. Is global warming to blame for this? Or could it just be how the Earth acts over thousands and thousands of years?

Ice has been here and melted before and then it re-freezes again just so it can melt and start over. Theres just no way to know if its us or normal.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.



Re: Global Warming
Thursday, April 06, 2006 2:15 PM on j-body.org
Jackalope wrote:Untill scientists can find someone who is several thousand years old to get first hand knowledge of what happened long ago then all they are doing is recording the temp and guessing at whats makeing it happen. Why panic the general public over something they do not exactly whats going on?
Ice has been here and melted before and then it re-freezes again just so it can melt and start over. Theres just no way to know if its us or normal.


There is scientific evidence that the average temperature on the earth has been rising since the industrial revolution when fossil fuels started to be used. Most scientists and companies believe the burning of fossil fuels to be the cause, their is evidence to prove that as well.

Why do you think oil companies talk about sustainable development now in all of their vision/mission statements?

I don't see any reason to panic, people will alter their behaviors as needed. Even if they don't, a little loss of life around the coastal regions won't be so bad...the world is overpopulated anyways.




<img src="http://registry.gmenthusiast.com/images/gunslinger88/thumbnail_personal_pic.jpg">
Re: Global Warming
Thursday, April 06, 2006 3:39 PM on j-body.org
The average temperatures of the triassic, jurassic, cretaceous, and other periods were much higher than they are now.

The temperatues of the planet when the palezoic ended were much colder than they were 20,000 years ago at the height of the last ice age.

Regardless of what's causing it, i will reiterate--we will adapt, or we will die.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaši, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

Re: Global Warming
Thursday, April 06, 2006 4:18 PM on j-body.org
it doesnt matter what is causing it honestly. the info needs to get out.

regardless of wether WE are directly causing the MOST of it plays no role in the public being educated in the fact that it IS happening and what that means for the future.



The biggest hole, is the illusion of invulnerability.

:::Creative Draft Image Manipulation Forum:::
Re: Global Warming
Thursday, April 06, 2006 4:24 PM on j-body.org
First off, you're wrong, the biggest hole is between Courtney Love's legs.

Anyone can see we're on a warming upswing...except last yeat this time here was actually *warmer* here than it is this year. Still, the trend is there and makes sense based on the fact we're actuially coming out of an ice age.

It's why i have no sympathy for people who live on Barrier islands, floodplains, or places where it's obvious it will flood. anyone with half a brain can see it's coming...

why i live on a hill


Goodbye Callisto & Skaši, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Re: Global Warming
Thursday, April 06, 2006 10:17 PM on j-body.org
ALOT of people do not. period

and they dont understand what that means for them.




The biggest hole, is the illusion of invulnerability.

:::Creative Draft Image Manipulation Forum:::
Re: Global Warming
Friday, April 07, 2006 4:53 AM on j-body.org
Well if you choose to build your house where its 20 ft below sea level don't wonder why your swimming one day. Thats stupidity at its very best!




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.



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