God made the rules. It is not, and should not be, any one person's view.


Chris Crossont
A.H.M. Performance
Baltimore, MD
http://www.ahmperformance.com

Angel we agreed remember? I'm not starting with you its just some other peoples opinions on this seem a little backward thats all. Abortion is perfectly fine but oh god no dont exicute that murderer cause his life has value and he can be rehabed. These are the people I'm addressing not someone whos a victom of rape or insest or if the baby is horribly handicapped or if the mothers life is in danger if she trys to carry to term.
Theres a H U G E difference in them and thats where I have a problem.

Killing a baby because its inconvent = fine
Exicuting a convicted murderer = Oh God thats terrible. Or not in my name. but then these same people are the first to show up for an abortion rally ? ( shakes my head )
Get a clue as to whats really important before you start protesting all of you hipocrites.





Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

jackalope ( a.k.a. the prick ) wrote:1st keeper I never said that. I believe very strongly in the d. p. cause they're getting what they deserve.

Gam ever heard of adoption? Thers no excuss for abortion to be used as B.C. its B.S.
And I guess then that the D.P. is none of your damned business unless your the one waiting to die.

Anyone who thinks its ok to kill an innocent unborn baby just cause mom can't keep here legs shut but then says the D.P. is horrible has got to be one of thee biggest hipocrites I've EVER met in my intire life.

Jack: Do you know how many kids are waiting for an adoptive parent? Do you have a number on how many of those kids in the foster care system are being neglected, abused or worse because they're still waiting? Acquaint yourself with the reality of that, and you'll understand why I don't think an unwanted child should be born.

I've said it at least 2x here, and I'll say it once more: I don't feel it should be used as birth control. However, I'm not judging someone I don't know... that's not my place, and I'm going to be squeamish about the reasons women have an abortion because it's not my call. I also don't call it a baby until it's alive and out of the womb... if the fetus dies in utero, it's not murder, it's a death one way or the other. It's not murder until the child is born from the mother and is alive on its own. That is where your logic derails.

The Death penalty is similarly cut and dry, even though, yet again, it's not part and parcel of this discussion. If the person has been born, it's murder one way or the other, until then, it's a woman's choice.

If you want to argue the semantics of abortion versus the death penalty, that's your call, I have no problems with my logic, because I don't consider a fetus to be a person.


Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Chris Crossont wrote:God made the rules. It is not, and should not be, any one person's view.

Ok... so if God made the rules... then why are there hundreds of different religions, thousands of different interpretations... who's right?

If Christianity is the one and only right way... then millions... or rather BILLIONS of people on this planet are doomed...

If Hinduism (sp?), Buddhism, Catholicizm, Paganism, Taoism, Islam, etc are right (only speaking for one) than the same is true... the majority of the world is doomed.

Think outside the box for one minute... I am by no means atheist... but think about this. Isn't it possible... that "God" "Allah" "Buddha" whoever you want to call him... is all the same "God" or "Goddess" or whatever... and has a few things that he wants us to live by... or wait... how about this...

Explain this to me. If "God" made the rules... then why are there so many different religions to begin with? If He made the rules... we would all be living by the exact same rules... hence... why there are different religions. Different people, in different places, somewhere along the line... offered up their own interpretations of these "rules"... and implemented some of their own.

You cannot for one minute say "God made the rules" and say that none of what exists today, isn't someone's own interpretation of the "rules", conformed to fit one's own personal beliefs and what they are comfortable with???

You probaly have your own beliefs on every subject... but I guarantee you that there's not ONE person who believes EVERYTHING that you do to a T. Even if you think so, I'm sure that there is at LEAST one thing that they differ from you on a little.

Not doggin you... so don't take it that way... but in this day and age people need to learn to think outside the box a little... and open their eyes up and realize that not everyone will agree on everything.

I could sit here and "what if" all day... but the point is that you have to wake up and realize that there's more to life than you realize... and not be so closed minded. You can still have your beliefs and believe what you do... but in this day and age... you have to respect other people's beliefs also... just as you would expect them you respect yours... It's not a one way street.

jackalope ( a.k.a. the prick ) wrote:Angel we agreed remember? I'm not starting with you its just some other peoples opinions on this seem a little backward thats all. Abortion is perfectly fine but oh god no dont exicute that murderer cause his life has value and he can be rehabed. These are the people I'm addressing not someone whos a victom of rape or insest or if the baby is horribly handicapped or if the mothers life is in danger if she trys to carry to term.
Theres a H U G E difference in them and thats where I have a problem.

Killing a baby because its inconvent = fine
Exicuting a convicted murderer = Oh God thats terrible. Or not in my name. but then these same people are the first to show up for an abortion rally ? ( shakes my head )
Get a clue as to whats really important before you start protesting all of you hipocrites.

My comments werent directed at you... moreso to the people who CAN NOT "think outside the box" or are hypocrites...

I do see and agree with where GAM is comming from to a point. Well... I do agree with him on his stance of abortion... provided it's not used as birth control, just as he said.

The death penalty... I"m a little unsure about it to begin with. There are innocent people exected, and for some instances I agree with the death penalty... but some I disagree.

But this topic is about abortion... not the death penalty.

So they should be puy down like a dog at the pound Gam? I know all about the adoption process and how messed up it is. It is in need of a serious overhaul so these things don't happen. I don't think it samantics on my part Gam perhaps you should look into a mirror when saying that its only samantics when speeking of a baby or a convicted killer. Murder is still murder, spin it how ever you need to so you can sleep at night without thinking twice about kill a baby. I'm not saying its just you Gam but the whole world needs a wake up call as to its values. I completely agree with Angle tho those values don't have to be christian in nature. But how you can value a murderers life OVER that of an innocent unborn baby is beyond me. And Gam as you yourself said what if she made that one mistake that one time why shouldn't she be allowed to have an abortion. To that I say ok sure how about that guy who made a mistake one mistake and killed someone when he was drunk. Why shouldn't he pay the same price as that unborn baby. These two issues are flip sides of the same coin. Its supporting death as an option over life.


Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

[quote=¤§Fallen Angel§¤]

The death penalty... I"m a little unsure about it to begin with. There are innocent people executed, and for some instances I agree with the death penalty... but some I disagree.

But this topic is about abortion... not the death penalty.

there I fixed my typo lol

I was trying to show a comparision that killing is still killing no mater the reason. And someone who opposes the D.P. so strongly to agree with abortion is highly hipocritcal
I'm going to let this drop as I see I have made my point and theres no reason to keep beeting you guys over the head about it.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

Well, I understand your logic, but I don't accept it.

I don't see an unborn fetus as a person. I mean, only recently did we understand how a fetus' bloodtype and rh factor worked with the mother... if the fetus had a different type or rh factor, the child would hve been killed by the mothers' immune system.

I also look at the death penalty as a great way to satisfy somepeople's mediocre idea of vengeance, but it's applied in such a poor fashion that it's not pratical.

I look at it like this, and I'm really sorry if I offend someone's sensabilities:

HUMAN LIFE IS CHEAP
NOTHING IS SACRED ABOUT LIFE

We don't approach valuing other's lives, and we surely don't value our own lives enough to take a stand against anything meaningful.

Abortion isn't the worst of society's problems.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

/\ /\ /\ True Gam but it should rank very high. Its just the I don't care atitude or the it's not
my problem types that ARE the problem.

And like you said HUMAN LIFE IS CHEEP. Its cheep to put a bullet into a convicts head and throw him nto an unmarked ditch along the roadside too. He threw away his life so why is anyone concerned for it at all.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

If you think that, then why are you getting all flustered about a few children that would have been unwanted/neglected to begin with?



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

I don't YOU do. I believe an innocent unborn baby deserves life sooo much more then some murdering convict p.o.s. Fix the stupid adoption laws in this country so families that want the kids and will love them can actualy get them without haveing the enormous amounts of red tape to go thru and see how many kids get good homes.

Did you know a gay couple or single person can hardly ever adopt a baby cause of the
quote horrible life style they'll be introduced to. Thats soo much crap its not even funny
Give the kids to a person who will love and care for them whats the diff if the persons gay or single or married?




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

So when does a "fetus" cross the line to becoming a "baby"? Is it when the heart starts to beat and the lungs develop? If so that's long before birth. Is it when the baby can live and breath on it's own? If so then it could be considered a fetus and "aborted" many months after birth. I would like to know where the line is? And how solid is that line? Will it stay there or can it be moved to later. Say we give someone 20 years to do something with their life and if they don't then we "abort" them.

Call me optimistic or naive, but I honestly believe that every person has some purpose to being alive. Whether it be to find the cure to cancer or just to positively impact those around them. I don't buy into there being people that have no purpose in life but to breathe for awhile and then die. That being said, my next step is to say how can I decide if someone should live or not? How do I know what they will accomplish with their life? I agree with those that say the adoption/foster care system with have is screwed up. It needs changed. It's not right that it's easier for someone to go overseas and adopt than to find a child in this country. But I don't think that's an excuse to decide that "well there isn't anybody that's going to want this kid, so I guess we should just go ahead and kill him or her." As far as the danger to the mothers life, that goes back to there being a purpose in life. Everyone has a time to die. As sad as it may be, maybe that woman's purpose was accomplished. What if the purpose of her life was to have the child who would grow up and cure some disease, or discover some renewable fuel?

I'm all about people having their freedoms. But I think it's convenient to say that the "fetus" isn't a real person yet so they don't have any rights or freedoms.


-Chris

/\ /\ /\ Thank you all very good points




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

so besse your all for a mother dying so long as she gives birth???

heres one for you...say the mother is pregnant with a baby that is going to be born severly retarded......and theres a huge risk of the mother dying in birth.....would you still say that the child should be born?.......personally i think that if that case were true then only a fool would say yes it should be born, because then you eliminate a normal productive member of society and replace it with...and yes it sounds harsh......a worthless leech on society


You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan

(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)

I see the point you're making, yes. But aren't there methods such as C section that allow the baby to be born while preserving the mothers life? That's how I was born. My tube was wrapped around my neck in the womb and I was flipped around backwards so if my mom had tried to give birth normally I most likely would have been suffocated and they said there was a possibility my mom could have died I guess too. I wasn't there yet obviously but that's what I'm told. Personally I'm kinda glad my parents didn't just say screw it and abort.

Sorry if I came off as screw mom let the baby live, but (and I could very well be wrong on this) I believe medical science has come along far enough that there are more options than just kill the baby.


-Chris

not always......sometimes even a C sectiion can be lethal to the mother

but i still wholeheartedly beleive that a physically or especially mentally handicapped baby should not be born as it will not benefit anyone in any way, and if i was thta way and could be normal for a day then back to retarded, id rather be dead


You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan

(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)

Besse>

So what kind of "gift" would it be to a child to find out later on in life the mother died having the said child?

My mom's dad died when she was just 4 years old. TO THIS DAY, she still gets upset because she never really got to know her real father.

Even if there is a father in the picture... it's not right to let hte mother die just to save the child (in some instances)... and have that child feel upset, sad, whatever that it never got to know it's mother. How would you have felt if you found out your mother died giving birth to you, and you never got the chance to get to know what type of person she was? Never got the chance to love her?

Saying everyone has a purpose in life and that it's ok to let the mother die and let the child live, well what if it was meant that the mother be saved and have a different child? You could say she wasn't meant to have that child...

It works both ways.

It's also not fair to force a rape or incest victim to carry and give birth to a child. Don't know if you caught it or not... but I was raped a little over 4 years ago. IF I had gotten pregnant... I most likely wouldn't be here today... adn neither would the child. The only way I got through the first almost year after htat was to forget it happened. And having to carry the child that was a product of hate (or rather a hateful crime)... I honestly don't think I could have handled it.

I do see what you're saying... but the fact of the matter is... not one of us can sit here and say for FACT whether it's right or wrong, and in which instances. We are not "God"...or whomever you want to call him.

We each may have our person view on what "God" says is right and wrong... and you could argue that "well the Bible says this"...

Yes it may... but there's different versions... different interpretations, different religions, people with lack of religion... not one of us can sit here and say what IS right... because all we know is what we believe ourselves. And unless "God" has spoken DIRECTLY to you and made it known... we don't know... we only have our beliefs and what each individual's faith tells them what is right.

Not doggin ya or bashin ya or anything... so don't take it that way... you at least seem to be able to understand where the "other side" is comming from and have an open mind about things.

I always try to understand where someone else is comming from and respect their views... even though I may not agree.

It's cool, I don't take offense to anything you're saying. I try to see both sides because I know there is always two sides to everything. I've never really been in a situation where the question was brought to me if someone should get an abortion or not, and since I'm a guy it wouldn't impact me the way it would a woman like yourself.

I guess what I'm saying with the whole "should the baby die or the mother" situation is, in my opinion if that baby is not supposed to be born, such as if the mother would die if it were and she isn't meant to die then, then the baby will not be born. Like I said, maybe that's a naive way to look at things, but as I look back at things that have happened to me, even things that were crappy enough to cause me to question whether I wanted to live anymore, there has always been some reason. Do I think some things happen just because bad things happen? Yes, I use the huricane disasters as an example. But I do think that God is ultimately in control of what's going on and doesn't just let people die just for the hell of it.

I have picked up on what happened to you over my time here on the .org, and I can't say that I know how you feel, but I do feel terrible that it happened to you.


-Chris

Besse>

Well I wouldn't expect any guy especially to know what that was like or even be able to imagine it. What gets me is all these MALE government officials trying to make decisions that affect WOMEN. The government is majorly male... and it's not right for them to tell women what they shoudl do with their body.

I look at it this way...

Each person has their own beliefs on what's right and wrong... or what the consequences are or should be.

If a person is convinced that a person is going to hell if htey have an abortion... why should anyone else care?

Or... you say you believe that God is in control of what happens... what if by your same logic... the "children" "babies" whatever that were aborted... weren't supposed to be born, or weren't supposed to be born yet??? If God was in total control of what happens and he didn't want abortion to happen... he wouldn't let it happen.

But we are human also... we were given free will... some take advantage of that. My point simply was we don't know EXACTLY what he wants or how he wants things to go...

It's really complicated... all we can do is stick by our own individual beliefs... and respect other's individual beliefs as well. TOTALLY eliminating abortion would not be respectful of some people's beliefs... but I do think it shoudl be limited

i agree with fallen angel, abortion laws should be in the hands of women, but there isn't enough women in politics to really make a legal decision that will stand

and hillary clinton does not count, im convinced she's really a man


You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan

(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)

jackalope ( a.k.a. the prick ) wrote:I don't YOU do. I believe an innocent unborn baby deserves life sooo much more then some murdering convict p.o.s.

Here's where I say that you might be right, but it's not right to kill someone to say killing is wrong, or ours is not to reason why and ours is not to judge who dies. Or I could say that its not applied evenly, and whatnot... ad nauseum.

Quote:

Fix the stupid adoption laws in this country so families that want the kids and will love them can actualy get them without haveing the enormous amounts of red tape to go thru and see how many kids get good homes.

Well, the red tape is there because there are so many bad homes... My idea is pretty simple:
-Criminal record check/drug check for all in the house.
-Psych profile to weed out pedophiles
-Pay the Administration fees
-Look after and love the child.

Quote:

Did you know a gay couple or single person can hardly ever adopt a baby cause of the quote horrible life style they'll be introduced to. Thats soo much crap its not even funny Give the kids to a person who will love and care for them whats the diff if the persons gay or single or married?

Yes, I know a gay couple that has tried to adopt a child that was placed with them as an emergency placement... and they were implicitly denied (This was about 4 years ago, since then CAS has seen fit to leave the boy there. He still calls them both Dad). However, since the same sex rights bill, it's changed.

I can't argue with what you're saying, but that would necessitate overhauling the system, and that, more's the pity, is something that just doesn't mean anything to those with the ability to do something.

I don't say it should be used repeatedly... hardly. Abortion causes a lot of damage to the mothers physiology, and hopefully that will turn a change for the better with the mother. However, I don't have a problem with abortion in and of itself.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

mikec2003 wrote:i agree with fallen angel, abortion laws should be in the hands of women, but there isn't enough women in politics to really make a legal decision that will stand

and hillary clinton does not count, im convinced she's really a man

Welp... short of the men in congress asking EVERY adult woman in this country and going from there...

They should leave it how it is then...

I mean.... how would men like women to decide what they do with their twigs and dingleberries???

[quote=¤§Fallen Angel§¤]

mikec2003 wrote:i agree with fallen angel, abortion laws should be in the hands of women, but there isn't enough women in politics to really make a legal decision that will stand

and hillary clinton does not count, im convinced she's really a man

Welp... short of the men in congress asking EVERY adult woman in this country and going from there...

They should leave it how it is then...

I mean.... how would men like women to decide what they do with their twigs and dingleberries???

hrm.....point taken.......ok you win


You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan

(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)

Population control is something that will need to happen at some point with or without one persons god permission



1989 Turbo Trans Am #82, 2007 Cobalt SS G85