Roofy, you messed up a bit...but you're on the right path. The debate is convoluted, however...

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

This is the establishment clause. Basically, what it boils down to is that by *CHANGING* the pledge in the 50's to say "under god", was an illegal act by congress, because it set forth a law (being the pledge in it's current incarnation), that estabished a religion--albeit in the blanket sense. It estabished that the U.S. is, for lack of a better term, "in bed with", any religion that adresses the deity known as "God". The illegal part of the pledge is just that--it was changed for the backing of specific religions...

However, it would be just as ILLEGAL to prevent someone from saying "under God" in the pledge, because it would be prohibiting free excersize of their religion.

This is where it gets muddy, because it could, and most likely would be estabished that removing "under God" violates the establishment clause as much as putting it in there did. This is where i say the part should be optional--and expanded, because really, in base form, ading or removing "Under God" changes none of the substance of the pledge--except for tying it into a specific belief system, which can be personal and private to the individual. In this way, saying "under God" or "Under Allah", or even, "Under Ba'al", doesn't change the meaning of the pledge--it just pulls it into an oath to whomever the person reciting it beliefs in. Or, by not saying it, it doesn't negate the oath--no more than "Do you solemnly swear to tell the full truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?" is no different than, "Do you solemnly swear to tell the full truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?"

As such, using occam's razor, the simplest thing would be to make the line optional, and a firing offense to any public school teacher to, like in Mike and my case, attempt to force the student to say it.

Cavfire:
It doesn't do much good if you're a student, you refuse to say "under God", the teacher reprimands you, you fight for your constitutional rights (being an atheist or another non-god-worshipping person), and your parents refuse to stand by your rights because they believe in God. Your constitutional rights to NOT say it are still violated--but you did have a point about mouthing it (what i did to get around it). For me, my complaint is less about the fact that people say "under god" and more that people try to force me to say it.

As for the 10 commandments, just eliminate the first three and i'd have no problems with it displayed on the courthouse wall. Those are the ones that do violate the estabishment clause--the rest don't.

But if you ask me, they should put the George Carlin's revised commandments on the courthouse wall:

1) Thou shall always be honest and faithful to the provider of thy nookie

2) Thou shall try really hard to not kill anyone except if they pray to a different invisible man than you do

3) Thou shall keep thine religion to thyself


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

See nowhere does it say seeration of church and state. I'll take my $50.00 if you don't mind.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

Awe hell I forgot the about oweing me the $50.00. But seriously nowhere does it say anything about church and states seperation other then there shall be no state sponcered religion. That doesn't say seperation of church and state all it says is the
states can't have an offical religion. Nothing about seperation.

Feel free to use this as a bar bet with people. 99.99% think that it does say it so you chances of loss are only 0.01% thems prettyu good odds if you ask me.





Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

AGuSTiN wrote:
I don't want people saying they believe in God if they don't. The Bible teaches thats people should come to God willingly. Coerced, forced, etc proclamations to God do no one any good.

I don't know why people fight so hard to get Ten Commandments and the like on Federal property. Who cares? So many more places to put it. Hey, put it on your own grass! Want to say God in the pledge alliegance? Then say it. Who cares? Want to pray before your football team takes the field? Pray then! Who cares?!?

exactly........thats basically all i want, is for the whole religoion thing to be dropped, if the government doesn't show any religious preference at all, thats great, that makes it more fair towards everyone, religion should be for the church and the home only......except for mabey saying a prayer when you need to or whatever......I don't care what you beleieve, and noone should care what i beleive, and nobody should force me to have to say anything i don't believe


on that note, if someone comes to my door trying to get me to go to thier church, i think i should have the right to kick them square in the nuts


You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan

(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)

/\ /\ /\ But how is the mear mention of "God" at all have any connection to one religion or another? So why is it offensive? If the pledge said "Jesus Christ" or "Buda" or "Jahova" I would agree that its offensive to some. But just the mention of "God" is so general that every religion believes in a "God" of one form or another that it shouldn't offend anyone at all. Other then atheists who do not believe in any God at all. But they are a minority in this country and this counrty is still run on majority rule so there out of luck.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

yeah i know its majority rules, sucks but thats the way it is, i know nothing will be changed but, i think things that are explicitly one religion, ie the 10 commandments should not be in a public place, that shows favoritism towards one religion, i guess your right, using the term god does cover all monotheistic religions, which does cover most major faiths, since it doesn't give a name to the god it mentions


You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan

(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)

Quote:

is so general that every religion believes in a "God" of one form or another that it shouldn't offend anyone at all.

Right there i think you're missing something..."God" when used in the sense in the pledge (under God, not "under a god", "your chosen god", or the like), is referrign to some entity that refers to itself as "God", not in the generic synonym for deity. As such, it is narrowing it down to a collection of specifics, and really, outside of Judaism and Christianity en masse, does any other religion refer to their master deity--or any deity, as "God?" nope--they usually refer to it's name (Allah, Odin, Buddha, Gaia, etc.), or for some wiccans, the pairing of God and Goddess, which is still a misnomer.

It's not as general as you think, which is why the whole debate is coming out--and it's why Mike and myself both had the aversion to saying it--which brings us to...

Quote:

Other then atheists who do not believe in any God at all. But they are a minority in this country and this counrty is still run on majority rule so there out of luck.

Which was the whole point of the estabishment clause, bill of rights, and the constitution in the fist place--so the minority wouldn't be stamped out by the majority rule--thus, it's not "they're out of luck", it's "you toleate the fact that they're not chrisian, thus they don't have to say it, and they tolerate the fact you are, and you have every right to say it."

That's what freedom is--and it comes at the price that the freedom you have to do what you do may piss someone off, and they have to tolerate it, and at the same time, everyone else has the same freedom to do what they do and you have to tolerate it even if it pisses you off.



Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

well put keeper, i wish i could gather my thoughts so well, i always have a hell of a time writing what i feel, but what you said is what i wanted to say


You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan

(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)

[quote=Keeper of the Light™]
Which was the whole point of the estabishment clause, bill of rights, and the constitution in the fist place--so the minority wouldn't be stamped out by the majority rule--thus, it's not "they're out of luck", it's "you toleate the fact that they're not chrisian, thus they don't have to say it, and they tolerate the fact you are, and you have every right to say it."


Exactly. I would recommend everyone to remember what Keeper has just posted, and if you don't fully understand it, to do some reading. It's important for every American to understand this. It's one, if not most, fundamental reason why our constitution even exists.




---

/\ /\ /\ Ok maybe the whole "thet're outa luck" thing was alittle harsh. But why should
the 95% or so that believe in a "God" be ruled by the 5% or so that don't? Now I agree completely the the Ten comandments shouldn't be on display in a courthouse as it does show favoritism towards Cristianity and thats VERY close to endorsing one religion over another which is what the Constition was trying to prevent. Even tho most of our laws are based off the ten comandments anyway.

In the end its just plain rediculous for the rest of socioty to have to be subjegated by the beliefs of such a small minority.

BTW Keeper "God" isn't just a christian name as most religions refeer to there own
God as well "God" at one point or another so its not biased at all.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

jackalope ( a.k.a. the prick ) wrote: But why should
the 95% or so that believe in a "God" be ruled by the 5% or so that don't?

My question to you is this..

How are you being subjugated?

On an extreme, reverse example, if I wanted to cuss in your presence, but it offends you, I'd stop cussing, because I wouldn't expect you to start cussing instead.

You're really making me defend this too much. But I think religion should be purged from all levels of government, because Christian governments are just a bad, bad, bad, bad, baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad idea.




---

yes most of our laws are based off the 10 commandments, im not saying that theyre bad rules to live by, but the fact remains that the 10 commandments are a christian thing, and therefore have no place in american government, the ideals they represent do, unjustified killing is wrong, there should be laws against it......but not becasue God said so




You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan

(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)

AGuSTiN. Good point. i don't want people to be offended at all but sometimes, someone, somewhere is going to get there feelings hurt. Is this wrong? Yes, But its the real world and its not here to be warm and fuzzy to everyone all the time. We should all just do our very best not to do the most damage with what we do or say. But unfortuneatly as someone once said " You can't please all the people all of the time"
also the "Lifes ruff where a helmet" isn't bad either. Your never gonna make everybody happy not even close. All you can do is try to keep most of the people happy most of the time.

As for thr ten comandments being a Christian thing they're not exclusively Christian.
According to most religions biblesand stories they were brought down from God by Moses. And Moses was a Jew. But if you get into looking into them a little deeper then its clear the were derived from the Babalonians and they say they were given to them from an even older socioty. So who knows where they actualy came from but there here none the less. Now taking any religion out of them completly they are actualy a
fairly good set of guide lines to follow. "Thall shalt not do murder" Very good advice.
"Thall shalt not steel another person" Ok so far no muder or kidnapping I can live them. Or if you follow the more classic interpratation "thall shalt not steel" Again good advice. No coviting neihbors wives and yadda, yadda, yadda. If everyone followed these rules we'd have a great world in which to live. But saddly we don't and for the life of me I can't see anything wrong with these ideas. Ok if you have an oversion to God then leave those out but as for the rest......... Seems like a great way to start a socioty.



Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

Jack: what you said was what I was getting at...

I don't believe, as a pagan derivative that adresses no one as "God", I have the right to stop you from adressing god.

I also don't believe that you, as a christian, have the right to make me adress god or stop me from adressing whatewver I believe in.

However, your figures are off:

Christianity 76.5%
Judaism 1.3%
Islam 0.5%
Buddhism 0.5%
Hinduism 0.4%
Unitarian Universalist 0.3%
Wiccan/Pagan/Druid 0.1%
Spiritualist 0.05%
Native American Religion 0.05%
Baha'i 0.04%

Taken Here:
http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#religions

Those are the top 10--however, taken into account that "God" as a word and just a word used as an expression cannot be construed in the same meaning as "God" in reference to the judeo/christian deity, We'd have to look at, when using it in a religious subtext, how each of those top 10 identify their deity--if any:

Chrisian and Jewish people do

Islam primarily adresses their deity as "allah"

Buddhism (at least around here--and looking at the populations of both greater Baltimore (Brooklyn park) and greater Seattle (Kent)--they are close enough to equal, so this is hit-or-miss), address Buddha

Hindus around here address many of their different deities.

Unitarians i don't know about, but i will assume they address God

Wiccans address the Goddess primarily, Pagans use a variety of deities of many pantheons, Druids i believe are the Goddess as well. (unfortunately, context won't count God as Goddess)

Spiritualists vary, but i'd give it about 1/2 God, 1/2 not.

Native american religions usually address the specific name of the "Spirit", not God.

The last religion, Baha'i, i don't know much about.

Either way, looking at the percentages, you're looking at more than 10,000,000 people that don't directly recognize "God". That's a considerable amount. It's not like we can write that amount of people off like the people trying to get "Jedi" as an official religion.

Now, you, as a christian, have to define something for me. How is making "Under God?" not mandatory "ruling" you? how is it infringing on you--especially if you still have the right to say it?


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

well, i guess for me the money saying god is ok, because satanists beleive that god and satan are actually ourselves as both "god" and "satan" so by saying in god we trust is really saying to me "in myself I trust", so i guess for money its cool, but for the pledge "under god" to me is inappropriate becasue the nation is not "under me"

****now back to your regulary scheduled programming*******


You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan

(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)

On a technicality, you're wrong mike.

The nation is under us otherwise we'd be swinging from it not walking on it


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

lol......ok keeper your right, but i was talking about it from the perspective of being under me, meaning that i was above it, IE, in charge of.........and i'd never want to in charge of the country

but i think you knew that, i think you were just being a wiseass


You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan

(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)

Ok guess I was off on my figures thanks Keeper. But the different people that I've talked to even tho they use different names for Whoever they pray to all haven't had a problem calling it "God" as they ubderstand in our conversations who we are refeering to. During said conversations I've also refeered to God as Budha, Allah,Jahova or whatever the religion of the person I'm speaking with is out of respect to them. But in turn they usually refer to it as God when they speak to me. So I guess its just mutual respect on all parties concerned which is how I strongly believe it should be. Am I a
Christian? Well I guess technicly I am, But never haveing found a church that was so full of hipocrites I don't consider myself a practiceing one. As for whatever perticular religion you choose or do not choose to me does not matter if your a good person.
I work with a very nice guy named Wayne. Now Wayne is a great guy hed bend over backward to help anyone in a heartbeat. Whats Waynes one flaw? He believes so strongly and unquestioningly in the Bible that he believes that eveyone else who does not believe that Jesus Christ is the one true God a savior is doomed to burn in hell. I
think this is a little out there if you know what I mean. I've offten talked to him about why he says his religion is better then another and he says because the Bible says it is. We
go round and round on this as you could imagine.

Anyway as I said everone from the different faiths that I have spoken to have no problem calling whoever they prey to God. But true I've only talked to a VERY small sampleing of the counties religious population so again I could be wrong here as well
but in looking at your numbers it would appear those who believe in God are the majority. This doesn't give us the right to rub it in anyones faces but like I said before this country is based on majority rule and since it would appear Christianity is the major religion then it would appear that it should not be changed at all.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

I say do what is RIGHT FOR YOU individually.END OF STORY,so many want to complain and get all technical about this.IF u choose not to say a phrase in the pledge or sit it out and just stand there and be happy to Live in the BEST PLACE in the world AMERICA.HOT DAMN.

i'm not saying change it, except to make it optional, since the change was illegal in the first place--follow?

However, we may be "majority based", but you have to consider, a lot of the devices within the consitution and laws are there to protect the minority--like the estabishment clause.

While you're not as christian, as, say, pretjah or hahaha, i took you in that context. For that, i apologize for that assumption.

Anyhow, back on target, my point was the purpos of that establishment clause. It's true that about 75% of all americans are christians, and that means that even thoguh they are the majority, the estalishment clause says they cannot all of a sudden vote for us to be a christian nation. That's the part of the checks and balances. It's the same reason for freedom of speech and press. Say i come out and publish an article that makes a lot of people incensed--let's say, the whole Michael Moore thing. It basically says that the people cannot vote to shut him up. He still has that right even though he's minority.

However, a lot of those freedoms and liberties have been destroyed over time under the white elephant of security, morality, family values. And others have been looped and twisted for people's benefits and to hell with everyone else, in the name of seregation, reparation, et al.

I think though, this quote sums it all up nicely:

"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. "


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

[quote=Keeper of the Light™]

I think though, this quote sums it all up nicely:

"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. "

where was that from........i like that quote


You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan

(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)

mikec2003 wrote:
like i said in my school, if a teacher caught you not saying the pledge in its entireity, you would face disiplinary actions. so we HAD to say the pledge, including the parts we didnt belevie in

and as far as the money, i was just saying that whe Under God comes out of the pledge........it won't stop there, you know money will be next. i mean, i don't like the text on the money, but it would be too costly to remove it so its something i can live with, however removing under god from the pledge doesn't cost much, so that is a very easy solution

then your teacher was needlessly strict. i dont think you should say it if you dont believe in it...but i think we should just leave things the way they are. dont add to or take away from what we've got (in regards to church and state).

AGuSTiN wrote:
I don't know why people fight so hard to get Ten Commandments and the like on Federal property. Who cares? So many more places to put it. Hey, put it on your own grass! Want to say God in the pledge alliegance? Then say it. Who cares? Want to pray before your football team takes the field? Pray then! Who cares?!?

just like i said ^^^....we should leave it alone. im not trying to get the ten commandments INTO anywhere. but they are in courthouses.....they have been there from the beginning....so lets just leave them. we dont need to be so PC all the time. the things being said on the commandments are good ideas to live by, even if you arent a Christian.

the reason i am putting my foot down on these issues is because its a slippery slope. remove "under God" from the pledge. then its the ten commandments. then what? when do you say "enough is enough"? i say we should leave it all like it is now. dont add to or subtract from anything.

[quote=Keeper of the Light™]
Now, you, as a christian, have to define something for me. How is making "Under God?" not mandatory "ruling" you? how is it infringing on you--especially if you still have the right to say it?

the problem i have with it is this: if your numbers above are correct, then by removing it you are ruling out close to 80% of the people and what they believe. i fully agree that a country ruled completely on religion is a bad idea. there is too much room for error and interpretation and fanaticism. however, that 80% should still rule and what they want should go. no that doesnt mean that you dont respect or take into consideration what the other 20% of people want. what they want should be heard, considered, and then decided upon. in this case, it seems very very menial to argue about, and as such it shouldnt really hurt anybody for it to be left where it is. but because we know that there are people that dont agree with it, we, as the majority, shouldnt expand upon it.

doesnt that sound fair enough?

First, cav...

Read the proposals i have...it's not "removing" it, per se, but making it not mandatory. I other words, Whoever wants to say "Under God" can say it, and whoever doesn't won't have to. To me, that's the fairest trade. That way, the christians don't have some people with far too much time on their hands complaining about "God this and God that", and that way peopl;e in Mike and my shoes won't have to worry about some nutjob claiming we're comitting treason.

The problem i see with the thinking of that "the 80% should get what they want" is that with that mentality, as the quote i said, forges the chain. There are enough whackjobs in the majority that think that there way is the only way--and neither you nor anyone else can say that there are some christian nutjobs that think that way--those that think everyone that doesn't go to their church will be hellbound. They have a vested intrest in promoting their agenda, and especially if it's religious-based agenda, they will use people of the same religion (read--80% of the public), most of who are insecure in their religious beliefs and thus muchy march lockstep to prove to themselves that they are really christian (i will be fair--christians aren't the only ones that do this). That's why it's dangerous. The 80% shouldn't mandate that the other 20 have to do things their way...because in context, leaving out or adding Under God doesn't change the meaning of the pledge at all.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

/\ /\ /\ /\ Even when I was back in elementry school in the 70's noone forced you to say the pledge if you didn't believe in God. In fact I even remember asking a kid once why she didn't say it she told me she was a Jahovas witness and they didn't like the word "GOD" so she didn't say it . I answered oh ok. And we both went on about our lives with no problem. I seriously doubt anything has changed and that now all of a sudden the teachers are holding guns to the kids heads and MAKING them say it.
So I just don't see where the problem lies. I don't know maybe its cause I believe in God and I'm not looking at this in the same manner Keeper can you help me out here
Am I looking at this the wrong way and just can't see it?





Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

The only way i see you're looking at anything "wrong" is misinterpreting me. We're going on the same concept of the optionality of it, but apparenty back in the 70's, people were a bit more tolerant--maybe it had to do with growing up in a secual revolution wearing clothes guarenteed to never get you laid--according to Dennis Leary).

I am dead-on serious when I say that in 5th grade, about a month after I walked away from Christianity for good, i would just not say "under god". The teacher, forgetting that we studied the constitution, said i had to say it, i pointed out the establishment clause, an apparently the principal was on her side, and my dad and stepmom were called in. Both, still irate that i walked away, punished me for not saying it.

So yes, it does happen. I just mouthed it the rest of the year, and until my junior year i didn't have any problems with not saying "under god", then it was some right-wing nutjob that made a stink in Physics class, in which my teacher beat me to the punch of pointing out the err in his ways.



Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.