^^^^ She's right.
Hinduism and Judaism are both 1500-1800 years older than Christianity.
Chamillionaire wrote:
I'm being who I am, not what you want me to be...
Hahahaha wrote:hmm, the first self-aware or the first that recognised the possiblity of non-existance?
My bad...let me try to rephrase...
In order to find the first "religion", you have to find the first (in a linear time sense) moment where something was sentient and aware of it's own existance and the separation thereof from everything else.
Thus, if we look at it from a christian mindset, the first religion is whatever God believes in.
However, this only works if time is not circular (or, rather, hyper-hyperspherical.
). Because if time is curved, then there is no end and no beginning, and all we have is an arbitrary reference point. If that's the case, then Christianity could be the first religion from the reference point of Christ. Because technically, anything before that is actually ćons in the future
And, just moving the reference point, worship of the Flying Spaghetti Monster could be the first religion.
Plus, things get more convoluted when you have to take into consideration, "sentience and aware of self-existance and the separation thereof from everything else". What constitutes that and is it something that as a quantifiable threshhold? Moreover, based upon our limited senses, can we accurately determine that threshhold?
However, it could be said this--the first religion for most humans would most likey be maternalism/paternalism--after all, from the time you were born (reference point of which you can trust your own experience), through your eyes, they are by instinct your Goddess/God....
...then you grow up and learn better
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The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
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Fair enough. I was only pointing out that in my mind, the first to actually worship would be those who recognise that the possiblity of non-existance is real and therefore they consider that someone or something made their existance possible. Being self aware is not enough.
Perhaps they worshipped the branch that fell and killed their tribal companion. Seeing the death reminded them that they will die. Seeing the stick take a life would be a powerful moment for them and the stick may seem very powerful itself.
Chances are the first things worshipped would have been either life givers (water, sun, moon etc) or life takers (volcanos, storms, the ocean, big sticks, rocks etc.).
PAX
You're limiting yourself to Humanity...hahaha...
This is nothing that says other forms of life don't have their own religions, after all, one can definitly say that many of our pets are self-aware.
Thus, using the Earth's tenure are the bounds of time--the first religon may not have been conceived by humans at all.
Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
[quote=¤§Fallen Angel§¤]The one thing I can't stand is people saying things like:
"If you don't do this, you're going to hell"
"If you don't believe in this... you're going to hell"
If you DO do this, you are going to hell"
"If you don't think the way I do, you're going to hell".
I personally believe, going on the assumption that there is a higher being/deity... I think the main ACTUAL purpose would be to find your own path to said higher being/deity... whether it be Christianity, Catholicism, Islam, Judaism, Hindu, Buddhist, or Flying Spaghetti Monsterism. I think the ACTUAL purpose is to be the best person you can be, and try to do good things, help others, etc.
I do not believe there is ONE and ONLY ONE true way to "Heaven", or whatever it is that awaits us after death. But I DO believe that we are here for a purpose, whether it is to learn certain things, do certain things, or whatever. And I DO believe that if Heaven truely does exist, that if we do not accomplish those things or learn those things in which we are supposed to do... we get the privalige of trying it all over again.
I do NOT believe in hell... or an "evil being" that is here to make things bad in the world. I believe the "devil"/"Satan" whomever, was "created" by people in order to have something to blame the evils on in the world.
Face it. We are human... we have free will... we WILL make mistakes in our lifetimes. The important thing for us to do is realize this and accept what mistakes we have made and do our best to not to them again... to learn from them.
People in today's society, and in past society, find it easier to blame someone or something else for their mistakes and errors, than to accept the blame themselves for screwing up... and that is quite evident. (example: woman suing McDonalds for spilling coffee on herself; parents that sued the makers of GTA because their kid went out and stole a car and killed people; Columbine; someone farts and blames it on the dog). It is much easier for people to blame another being, thing, or deity for the "bads" in life than it is to accept that we are human, and we make mistakes.
Nothing and no one is perfect, and it is important for us to realize this. We have to find our own path in life. I don't think HOW we find our beliefs is as important that we find our own path... and try to be the best person that we can be.
I have a hard time believing that if "God" loves all of his children, that there is only one path. If say Christianity was the one and only true path, billions of people would be doomed to "hell". So like I said before, I think the main thing of importance is to find the best path for us individually, rather than collectively, if that makes any sense...
God does loves all his children. There's one thing that you are right about, and that's we are human and we do have free will. Sure, it would be easy for God to display himself and prove to us all, that he is God. He doesn't have to make you believe in him. God wants you to willingly trust in him and believe who he say he is. It's just like love...you wouldn't want someone to love you because you made them to, you'd want them to love you on their own. Hebrews 10:7-31 describes the heroes of faith - I recommend reading.
Christianity is when you believe by faith (believing with your heart blindly) that Jesus Christ died at calvary for all of our sins and following scriptures and trying to live life as God intended. Now, it is christian like to spread the teachings of Jesus Christ and the messege across to anyone who would listen but by no means do I force it upon anyone nor should anyone.
God bless you all,
Carl
[quote=Keeper of the Light™]You're limiting yourself to Humanity...hahaha...
This is nothing that says other forms of life don't have their own religions, after all, one can definitly say that many of our pets are self-aware.
Thus, using the Earth's tenure are the bounds of time--the first religon may not have been conceived by humans at all.
Where did I say human, or mankind? You inferred it.. Perhaps because in one example I said "Tribal companion", well monkies live in "tribes" too...
semantics semantics.. but all in good fun.
PAX
NJHK (Sexual Chocolate) wrote:I believe a Christian should be someone who is basically a good person who believes in Jesus and other words of the bible.
Basically, I believe this goes for any religion as well. I believe it all comes down to you being a good person and making sure you follow what you believe. I don't think there is much of a difference between each religion in the way you should behave.
Good will dosen't make you a christian... You have to be about God! Believe that when he died on the cross that he had you on his mind. Meaning by "You" he thought i.e (Adam, chris , Mike ect ect) about each person as a Single being.
Im sorry i came in late and quoting from the beggining but thats my input.
FireCav98> (just figured I'd do it this way instead of quoting, because it seems I too am unquotable lol)
I was just basically trying to say that I don't think the RELIGION itself you believe in is as important to God as that you find your own path to God, and find him on your own.
I don't like someone telling me that because I don't believe the way someone else does that I'm going to hell. I honestly believe that the most important thing is that you find your own way to Him/Her.
I just can't believe that if God loves all his "Children", that he would "banish" the greater majority of the population to hell because they don't follow ONE exact same path.
No matter how you look at it, the majority of the planet is not Christian... and to say in one breath that God loves all his children, but if you don't Believe in Christianity per say you're not allowed into Heaven... is contradictory in itself.
I'm not putting down any religion at all, I'm just saying that I believe it's more important that you find your own path, than believing that ONE path is the only right path in life.
I will concede that...hahaha
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2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Just curious... what is everyone's thoughts about the difference of being religious and being spiritual... or do you see a difference? It seems these days, that so many people say they believe in God, go to church Sunday, etc, and then go and become complete hypocrites for the rest of the week. I'm not saying I'm perfect (I'm far from it), but I was wondering what everyone thought.
ShiftyCav wrote:thats probably the dumbest thing i have ever heard. you should take that serpentine belt and wrap it around your neck.
I have no use for "Sunday Christians."
I have no use for people that think that they can act badly for 6 days a week, and on the last day, Be absolved of their sins.
Religion doesn't take the place of or absolve the need for principles, or integrity. Having a personal relationship with God is great, but you're not following the tenants of your chosen religion, you're getting into Heaven, Nirvana, Valhalla.. whatever.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
actually, i think that those that don't practice what they preach are used as cannon fodder for valhalla
Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
joe pennell wrote:Just curious... what is everyone's thoughts about the difference of being religious and being spiritual... or do you see a difference? It seems these days, that so many people say they believe in God, go to church Sunday, etc, and then go and become complete hypocrites for the rest of the week. I'm not saying I'm perfect (I'm far from it), but I was wondering what everyone thought.
thats basically the question i was asking... or at least i thought..hahaha either way,
DISCUSS!!
i personally, think that if someone says they're a christian but their life-style says differently, then there not! if someone claims to be a christian, but criticizes others (for what they htink, act, do, look like, etc) then their heart is DEF. not in the right place.
so yeah, i would say there's a different.
i also think that you can claim to be catholic, baptist, whatever and still not be a christian... to me, its not just about what you say, but more about what you do.
Couple quick questions, who wrote the bible? Everytime I hear people talk about the miracles that are stated in the bible, predicting events in a very ambigous mannor I think of Nostradamus.. Why don't people worship Nostradamus if he was able to predict events 500 years after his time in the same ambigious mannor as the bible?
If everyone was derived from Adam and Eve, where did all the ethnicities come from??
Why would a God create a human kind that is so diverse in believing so many other religions other than his own.. If he wanted people to worship, pray and make sacrifices such as good Christians do on a daily basis, and he was able to create the world around us, why wouldn't he just make sure he weeded out the ones that wouldn't believe?
My questions may seem to possess some ignorance but I am really trying not to piss anyone off.. Just want some good answers from a religious stand point
^^^I'm with Jared here. My main question is why God only had 1 chosen people. Why the middle east?
If you think about all the religions that have come and gone you know that most religions start from stories transfered by word of mouth. When the people finally found a way to write down the story who knows how much has changed. Then you have to copy the story every few years and that could change the story. Then what may have just been a story of a battle may end up being one with God helping one side and Satan on the other side depending on who's side of the story is being told.
Nobody that I know of believes in Norse, Greek, or Roman mythology anymore. And it's now called mythology, not religion because hardly anybody believes in it anymore. How many years did that take? We know the roman's still had their religion around Jesus's time and now it's myth. How long til christianity ends up a myth? I have no time to take up a religion that will more than likely end up like many other religions before it.
If you blindly believe in your religion then I feel sorry for you. Things need to be questioned, religion, government, everything has to be questioned at some point.
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Jared W wrote:Couple quick questions, who wrote the bible? Everytime I hear people talk about the miracles that are stated in the bible, predicting events in a very ambigous mannor I think of Nostradamus.. Why don't people worship Nostradamus if he was able to predict events 500 years after his time in the same ambigious mannor as the bible?
If everyone was derived from Adam and Eve, where did all the ethnicities come from??
Why would a God create a human kind that is so diverse in believing so many other religions other than his own.. If he wanted people to worship, pray and make sacrifices such as good Christians do on a daily basis, and he was able to create the world around us, why wouldn't he just make sure he weeded out the ones that wouldn't believe?
My questions may seem to possess some ignorance but I am really trying not to piss anyone off.. Just want some good answers from a religious stand point
Carefull attention will answer your questions.
The Bible has many authors. The first 44 books are from the oral tradisions of the Hebrew tribes and were written down eventually, but late (still before the coming of Christ though). The last 22 books (new testament) were wqritten by either the apostles themselves (some were), assistants who took dictation, and some by people remembering what they were told by an apostle. Most were written about 70 years after the crusifixion of Christ, many say that the apostles were not compelled to write anything because they were busy preaching and travelling, estblishing the church. It wasn't until they became elderly and unable to go amung the people that they turned to the task of recording the events. First they had to realize their own mortality so to speak.
The predictions in the Bible range, some are very very specific. Like the ones stating that a man will come from Galalee on a donkey and say that he is from Nazareth. The specificity of the virgin birth from a mother also born of a virgin (both are claimed). The a king will kill all the child boys in an effort to stop the Christ etc etc etc. There are over 300 prophecies regarding Christ alone. Some are ambiguous but a great number are not. Nostradamus on the other hand left much room for interpretation in all his predictions. People do not worship those who made the predictions in either case. Christian worship Christ, not the prophets who came before him.
If you read the Genesis story in it's entirty it seems that there are people who are outside the garden of Eden (the murderous son is afraid of the others claiming that if he is removed from the garden, the others will kill him.). Besides that, even evolution claims (and DNA supports) that we all came from the same mother. The ethnic diversity that you see is a result of thousands (maybe more) years of geographic seperation. Just like the species that live in the Galapagos islands are different from their mainland cousins.
The reality that people are created by God and worship something else is easy enough to explain. God does not want slaves, God intends for us to come to him on our own. He would not imposed any restriction on our free will because we would not love him. The ultimate goal is for us to learn and eventually love God in the way that he loves us. Without restriction or boundries of any kind. Aside from that God is wise and knows that different language and geography will lead to different cultures and not one religion is going to work for all cultures. Different fingers of the same hand. That is why one of the lessons is that we should not be judgemental. We are but human and cannot understand God's plan.
Remeber the parable of the wheat and the tares (weeds). Do not pull the tares for fear of damaging the wheat. It will be sorted out after harvest.
For James Larson.
Not all old religions have faded out, just the larger pagan ones. The advent of modern philosophy had a hand in that. People came to the realization that if there were multiple Gods, they would struggle for power and that really, there can be only one. Monotheism started about the time of Aristotle (just before) and eventually brought down the anchient western pagan religions. That said, there are still pockets here and there, and Hindus (even older than ancient Roman, Greek and Norse mythology) still abound. Hindi teaches there are many Gods. Budism is strong and it suggests that the enlightened person can become as a God themself, so no, they are not dead.
The Roman religions lasted about 800 years, where fractured and never really a coherent religion anyway. Each city had its own God that they worshipped. There was more infighting and little cooperation. All part of the downfall. The Anchient Greek religions were much the same and shorter lived.
Christianity has its foundation in the anchient religion of Judeism (about 10000 years) and has lasted over 2000 years in it's current (or close to) form. This is not a fad, honest.
PAX
If you think about it...
The roman religion was based on the greek religion, and I believe the framework for monotheism was not built by Aristotle, but even earlier by and Egyptian pharoh that worshipped the sun.
However, consider this:
There are a lot of hidden similarities in the Greco/roman religions that appear in Judeo/christianity. You have Jupiter/zeus--the übergod. Ditto with YHVH. However, in a monotheistic system, there shouldn't be other gods, yet you have the not-as-powerful-as-gods in the archangels, while in the Greco/roman religions you have the other gods. In fact, many of those archangels parallel the other gods (i.e Ares/Mars/Michael).
Eben though i don't believe Christianity/monotheism will go away, the upswing in pagan religions today has to be noted...and I think I have a theory on this.
Depending on who you ask, There is a sizeable portion of christian that believe that The earth was put here for them to use as they will (See also: Mikey Likey). And for the longest time, we have. Cue up the point in which we've tried to become more eco-freindly, and that roughly parallels the time when neo-paganism started to rise.
My theory is this: Monotheism gave us an excuse to exploit the planet--hell, We were told to be fruitful and multiply, right? Paganism tends to look at the earth as something to respect and work with--lest you incur it's wrath. Hence the upswing in it when people realized that we're poisoning ourselves with our actions.
something to think about ...
Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
not to put too fine a point on your argument Keeper, but it was the Animals that were told to go forth & multiply... God knew humans were pretty greedy apparently
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
Sorry, after the double-helping this weekend of GWAR and Henry Rollins, my head's spinning (along with little or no voice).
Basically, my point was that christianity tends to preach man's dominion over nature, and paganism tends to teach anything between fear and respect.
Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
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The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Hrmmm
Gwar and theological Discussion... interesting pastiche.
I don't know a lot about earthen religions, but I don't understand the term "God Fearing," why would you fear someone that is your friend? Same idea with paganism, why would you fear nature, when you're part of it?
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
Don't ask me...i don't subscribe to those religions.
Actually, GWAR and theological disccussions have to go hand in hand, if you follow the myth of GWAR--very creationism-like:
The All-mighty master of everything had to take a dump, and thus the universe was born. Then he had to wipe, and thus the scumdogs of the universe came into being. They were then exhiled to the most remote mudball planet there was (earth), and killed off the dinosaurs, mated with primitive apes to form thge human race, and were stuck frozen in antarctica since the ince age, only to be released from their Antarctic freeze when all the CFC's in the air from all the hair-band's hairspray back in the 80's caused the ice they were trapped in to melt, and found by Sleazy P. Martini who turned them into musicians when he gave them cocaine...
I'd actually say that should be in theology 204--right after the Flying Spaghetti monster,,,,
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The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
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Christians = Lunatics
not saying all of them, just the really super religious ones. the ones that feel that have to do everything they can to change everyone in the world to christianity. i find it funny that one will believe in being nice and all of that good stuff but when someone with a different viewpoint challenges them, they go insane. My ezample is that of Trading Spouses which was on last week with that crazy religous lady. she was saying how God Tells her to do this and that and how to live a righteous life. now the family she swtiched to was some hippy kind of croud i think. the husband has this radio show and the guest a psycic. the lady went nuts right. she felt all disgusted because of her beliefs and that psycics and all that scientology stuff is evil. now after this, she says they all have to go to church and become cleansed.
Now how is it all OK for her to denounce his beliefs and kinda force the family to believe in what she says is right. im pretty sure this is not being a Christian. you should let God decide what happens to the others.
what always gets me is that there are all of these different religions that believe in different gods than that of just the Christian God. so what happens to them when they die or are judged? if the Christian God come s again to destroy civilization do the rest of the religons die as well or do those people just float around? if they die too does their god have a fight with the Christian God for killing these people?
To answer the above questions somewhat: No.
There are extremely few pagans out there the believe in, much less worship, the christian god. Ditto on hindus and buddhists. Further, damnation isn't the same in all of the religions.
Now, to get relativistic on you:
It could be said that our own destiny is untimately decided by us and us alone. Not so much that we are not vulnerable to outside forces, but only we can decide which way to go based upon the circumstance of our existance.
This means many things, among which is that whatever you believe happened in a theological sense, happens, but it happens only to you.
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2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
