Hitler: what do you think... - Page 2 - Politics and War Forum
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Meh.. not without a foot hold. I don't think the allies would have been able to float enough heavy guns or used even the longest range bombers to get at the atlantic defensive wall to soften it up in a pre D-day type raid. Also, I don't think paratroops would have been a possibility.
Also, as I said, I think you're assuming that I'm talking later in the war, I'm talking about changes that would have been made in 1940 to pre-Pearl Harbour. Had the Itallian fleet been let loose, they would have had the range and firepower to keep the US Fleets close to home. IIRC, Italy had as many subs as the Nazis did. Disabling the fleet would have been a minor miracle.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
Assuming that Goering and Hitler were still stonewalling Doernitz like they did, we would have eventually crippled the u-boat fleets...Again, it was bad management that cost the Germans on that one. Even if the germans had more XXI and XXIII u-boats, without nuclear power, they would still have ti surface, and the allied hunter-killer groups at the end of the war, on tactics alone, were taking their toll on the remaining U-boats.
Further, at the time, a u-boat in pre-1940 time would have been a minor miracle to *actually* manage to sink a capital ship (while they have sank destroyers, the few sinkings they did of cruisers-and-larger craft were in port). Unless a u-boat could get within torpedo range (5000m if you get a lucky shot--500 to 1500m was standard procedure), when most could go no faster than 17kts flank speed (and most warships cruised at 17kts or faster)
Further, by the time the u-boats had the range to actually hit the US, anti submarine warefare was advanced enough to the point that would make an attack without a surface fleet/aircraft on a docked U.S. capital vessel a suicide attack by the germans.
Plus, the whole of the u-boat fleet's mission was not to sink warships, but to sink merchant vessels.
If perchance, britain fell, the aim of the u-boats would have changed--they would have to be retrofitted to take out warships--which would mean they would have to somehow put in more powerful motors, more fuel, which would mean larger size, less maneuverability, and a larger radar/ASDIC profile. Until the XXI boats came out, they couldn't have taken on the warships, since there would be few merchants crossing the atlantic (since america could sustain itself from within back then), and even then, the XXI and XXIII boats still had to surface, and with hunter/killer groups waiting on the surface when a sub was detected, unless the sub managed to slip away, fat chance on skinking a capship.
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Subs aside... the Germans could not hope to gain naval superiority without a carrier fleet... whether it got some from Britain after its defeat or finished the Graf Zepellin is up in the air... the Pacific war immediately reduced the battleship to a gun platform for bombardment... the big IF is whether the Americans could field a fleet that could take on Japan in the Pacific and a German/Italian combined fleet in the Atlantic...
Keeper: You basically summed up my point... Assuming a there was a more co-operative attitude in the wehrmacht, they would have been easily able to halt the American convoys, and pound and starve Britain into capitulation.
Also, there were 3 u-boats in Halifax harbour, and 2 found in the St. Lawrence... They had the range.
Spitfire: As far as a carrier fleet: there wasn't a carrier in the Atlantic until much later (unless I'm remembering incorrectly), basically after the war. The airfields in Britain were a lot easier to build. Apparently, carriers weren't all that useful in the european theatre. Besides, if the German Navy were at least semi-competant, they'd have upped the AAA installations per ship if it became a problem... cause and effect.
Also, Battleships weren't really a whole lot more than Naval bombardment platform, before the Pacific theatre developed, anyhow.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
Yeah, but if the Germans knocked Britain out of the war, there would be carriers in the Atlantic... and yes there were small escort carriers in the Atlantic on convoy duty... and if you count Britain there were several large ones. Yes, the German strategy was more of a land and air one with submarines given the priority on the high seas. But there were many times when a German carrier could have caude havoc with British commerce. Imagine if the Bismarck, Prinz Eugen, a bunch of destroyers and a carrier had gotten out in the Atlantic in 1941?
And prior to Pearl Harbor, the battleship was not just a bombardment platform. All the navies of the world planned to use them in a Jutland-type battle.... especially the Japanese who later found their superbattleships to be pretty useless... luckily for US strategy the ships taken out at Pearl were pretty much obsolete, although it wasn't known at the time how obsolete they really were against ships!
As for AAA, just for thought the Yamato-class battleships had over 150 25mm AA guns and 6 dual 6in. AA guns and also 18in. guns that could fire at aircraft (like a big shotgun!) and it was easily taken out by US aircraft... AA couldn't have saved German aircraft, they needed air cover of their own
They had the range, yes (the type IX boats did) to make it to americas (hell, the type IX-D2 boats had the range to make it to Japan), but not only were U-boats flimsy, so they couldn't withstand a surface bombardment, but when they were submerged, their best defence, the type IX boats were lucky to make it faster than 8kts, and most warship convoys moved at 17kts or faster. Now, you try to get within 1500m and fire a torpedo, with torpedoes that had common faults with them, on ships traveling twice as fast as you go, without being detected and depth-charged....you would almost have to be situated right in the path of the convoy.
The U-boat war didn't really have the capability to take out warships until the type XXI and XXIII boats were developed and put into use, which could travel 17kts submerged, and had a snorkel. If Britain was out of the picture, with no one across the atlantic to ship materials to, merchant traffic would have ceased. The u-boats would have been relatively useless in the atlantic after that.
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The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
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The Sentinel wrote:Hitler was a blundering idiot and would have failed regardless ....[/quote
Is that so? A man who could rise from nothing to one of the most powerful leaders in history? To get an entire nation to literally abolish a huge percentage of its population and go to war using only his voice? He conquered an entire continent for crying out loud!
Hitler was evil, but he was absolutely brilliant. That is, until near the end of the war, when he made some poor tactical choices.
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/559749/1
i still say that a Navy\ Marine landing would have been posable in italty. the americas simpley have more recsorces.
Chris
"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."
Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry
Of course it was possible. Canadians did it. We liberated Cicily first then worked out way North.
PAX
there ya go, with that as a foot hold working our way north wouldent have been a problem, either way you cut it, hiltler would have lost.
Chris
"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."
Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry
Hitler was a genious in some ways, and a dolt in others. He did not anticipate England's response to the invation of France.. That makes no sense as the same reaction was had by Keiser Wilhelm just a couple decades earlier. He also did not expect the response from the commonwelth of nations. That is also silly as it is well know that British subjects are fiecely loyal (for the most part).
He did manage to have Germany rise from the ashes of WW1 and become the most powerful single nation on Earth (at the time), that was no small feat.
Hitler needed to make friends. If he had some good allies before WW2, with good solid economic ties to North America, he might have pulled it off. Keep in mind that his real ambition was "the unification of former Germanic lands" he was not looking to take on the world, that's just how it played out.
PAX
If Germany had control of the whole Continent I think Italy would be the worst place to land... the country is mountainous and the majority of the German and Italian Armie would be free to defend (or attack) you once the US landed. Plus it would be a minor miracle if the US could get an invasion fleet that far if they were based in America... talk about bad logistics and supply lines through submarine-infested waters... plus the German/Italian Navy would be all over and the Luftwaffe dominated the skies... The fact that the US would have no air support for a landing puts it out of the question... a carrier wouldnt survive in the Mediterranean for long!
^I'm talking about the scenario when Britain was knocked out of the war of course
Hahaha: What do you mean by Britain's response? I'm assuming that I'm reading it wrong, but if you mean Britain entering the war, then they entered after the invasion of Poland, before France was attacked.
Besides, it still made more sense to attack through Belgium, just as the Kaiser had done; The Maginot Line(on the German/French border) Would've been EXTREMELY hard/time consuming to break(In fact, several fortifications held out for months after their country surrendered, despite being completely cut off and surrounded; even then, it wasn't taken by force).
As for invasion through Italy, I don't see how that is possible at all, had he owned the continent - There are only three ways into the mediterranian by ship - The straight of Gibraltar, Seuz Canal, and from the black sea, by way of the Dardinelles(Which would require soviet and/or turkish cooperation). Sending ships through either of these extremely narrow choke points would have been a feeding frenzy for subs, other ships, land based artillery, you name it.
I know it worked, but if he had the continent already, alot more resources/ attention would be placed on it. Besides, if it had worked, what size of a ground force would be waiting for the allied forces when they got ashore?
In my opinion, those mountains can hide a hell of a lot of 88's...
"i promise we won't get drunk, and go out in boat in the dark, stand up in the boat and fire the gun into the air unless we have life jackets on."
Quote:
I know it worked, but if he had the continent already, alot more resources/ attention would be placed on it. Besides, if it had worked, what size of a ground force would be waiting for the allied forces when they got ashore?
Let me clear that up...
I know invasion through Italy did happen, but if Hitler had owned the conitnent, he would be more aware of the situation on that front, and in a better position to prevent a large scale invasion; And if by some chance troops did land, he would have a fairly large force ready in a short time to counter it.
We need an edit button!
"i promise we won't get drunk, and go out in boat in the dark, stand up in the boat and fire the gun into the air unless we have life jackets on."
Sorry, I meant Brittan's response in general. Hitler had met with Brittish authorities not long before he made his first moves and thought that they would not interfere. He had mentioned some of his ambitions in the meeting and the Brits stayed quiet, so he saw that as a green light. What he failed to realize is that the Brits were information gathering and were in no position to comment on Brittish foreign policy. They noted the size of his navy, went home and recommended that Britian prepare for possible conflict. The rest is history. Even in Hitler's memoirs he states that he always considered England an ally, and he admired the country. He had his rose coloured glasses on that day.
PAX
Yeah, I figured that might be what you meant, but I wasn't sure.
I'm trying to find a link on one of the fortresses on the maginot line, it's pretty interesting. I read it in an old war magazine, hopefully it is online somewhere. Basically, the germans pounded the back of it non stop at almost point-blank range with an 88, figuring it would worke like a big ass jackhammer; they'd punch through by day, and the french inside would patch it up again by night.
"i promise we won't get drunk, and go out in boat in the dark, stand up in the boat and fire the gun into the air unless we have life jackets on."
You're forgetting, spit, that if there was no need for supply lines to europe (britain) the u-bootwaffe would have been innefectual and not much needed in the n. atlantic theatre. IMHO, If they would have nailed britain, they would have most likely had their II and VII subs in short and log range defensive patrols, and sent their IX's to the Pacific to help Japan--at least i could see Doernitz doing this, who knows what Field Marshall Herring, er...Goering (last time I watch the three stooges before i get itno a WWII debate) or Hitler would have done...
Thus, with the right planning, it would have been possible to get a fleet across, because it would have been difficult to mobilize the ubootwaffe, and the ones that could be mobilized would have been short-range boats (the type VII's couldn't even make it much past england--even with sub bases in france). Granted, it would have been harder than hell to do it, but it would be technically feasible.
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The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
True, but I'm sure the Germans would base some of their short-range "boots" in the Mediterranean, either on the south coast of France or Italy itself... the Germans would also control the old British strongholds (Malta, Alexandria, Gibraltar) and if you can imagine a large naval battery blocking the Mediterranean they could delay the passage of the US fleet long enough for German and Italian subs to mass in the W. Mediterranean. Plus the Italian Navy was nothing to sneeze at! Of all the defenses however, I'd say the Luftwaffe was the biggest threat to US capital ships and transports...
Keep in mind, also, that Hitler and Musolini help Franco gain power in Spain, and would likely be able to use spanish airfields and naval bases; that would seal up the Straight of Gibralter pretty good.
"i promise we won't get drunk, and go out in boat in the dark, stand up in the boat and fire the gun into the air unless we have life jackets on."
Again, even if they took ALL of europe, there's still very little that a type II, type VII, or a type IX sub could do against warships--aside from a lucky shots or catching one in port. While it would make europe a tough egg to crack, it would be erroneus to say that the subs would kill off the american fleet--and yes, you're right, the luftwaffe was the biggest threat to american ships, the same way as allied air power was the biggest threat to u-boats.
That being the case, I would say the best way into europe would have been either a hop, skip, and jump from greenland, iceland, and then scotland. Up through aftera/middle east, or try and fight alongside russia from the east.
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2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Quote:
That being the case, I would say the best way into europe would have been either a hop, skip, and jump from greenland, iceland, and then scotland. Up through aftera/middle east, or try and fight alongside russia from the east.
Thats seems more feasible... especially if we went in through Iceland and jumped to England... I'm sure we'd have some partisan help from the Brits and the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine would have a hard time defending. The Russia thing would not have gone over well with Stalin I'm sure
On to another scenario... some say that the Germans should have surrendered in 1945 to the Americans/Brits and all three nations turn on the Communists... there was a great deal of tension between Soviets and Western nations by 1945 plus the US/Britian knew Stalin was going to carve up Eastern Europe. If Germany added its technology/ jet aircraft to the US strategic bomber fleet and added its infantry and tanks to the US aRmy, I'd say the "Western Allies" could have whooped the Soviet Union and prevented the Cold War... although you could argue that cold war is better than hot!
Well, what did russia do to incur our wrath, other than being a superpower?
Sure, stalin was a bastard, but then again, ast any american citizen with japanese heritage living on the U.S. west coast atthe time if we weren't.
Goodbye Callisto & Skaši, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
The idea of the allies turning on Stalin was considered. The fact is Stalin had the numbers, the US didn't have the appetite (and didn't have the resources to do it without more help than the rest could offer) and Egland (and the commonwelth) were tapped out. That's why Stalin got half of Germany, nobody liked the idea, but nobody was in a position to argue.
PAX
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