As long as liberals get the hell out of the government, I'll be happy. All the @!#$ that we saw in the last couples of years make me sick. I won't vote for the Bloc, since they'll never get to the power with their dumbass idea to separate Québec from the Canada (WE DON'T WANT IT, THROW TIS THING IN THE GARBAGE AND FIND SOMETHING MORE INTELLIGENT TO OFFER PEOPLE...) Another thing that we should do, is to get rid of the queens and the general governor (don't know if it's the right term in english), it's a waste of money (it's normal that it cost I don't remember how millions to get her ass with 150 other persons in russia) and look who we have now. They found the way to get Michaelle Jean, a journalist, a pretentious bit..., who is spreading @!#$ against everybody. How does she got there??? Hope we'll see changes... Here in Canada, we never vote for someone, we always vote against someone...

^^ thats right never for anybody, its always against.. michelle jean, her husband is a seperitist (sp) and that govenor crap is



maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow....... but some day

We do not have the ability to "get rid" of the Governor General. You seem to be missing out on the fact that Canada is a "Constitutional Monarchy" Like it or not the Queen is our head of State represented by the Gov. Gen. and short of having a revolution against the crown, we have that scenerio. In the grand scemem it costs us very little. Remember we are a "Commonwealth Nation" because of that very fact. To me, the benefits outweight the cost. Do da's trip around the pole was her doing, not a normal function of the office, but again, that really was a drop in the bucket. Heck, there's a golf course in QC that got more money than that ;D Or pick an advertising firm...


PAX

Stock GT: The Ad you talked about earlier, it worked. I'd rather see a political candidate/party state what they plan to do if elected, and how they plan to finance it. If you can't sum up what you plan to do in the space of a 1-2 minute ad, you're not going to sell me or most people on what it is you want to do.

Also, Conservatives took the low road last time (all attack ads, all the time) and they're keeping the same form this time... I don't see/hear a bit of their platform except for the one note tune they've been playing for the last 2 years. I can at least GET some of the plan for the Liberals on the radio ads. It's the same thing for the NDP, they're putting forward their platform... and ragging on the Liberals.

Anyhow... I can't see what this exercise is going to net. I seriously doubt there will be a majority gov't, and this exercise will be repeated (and funded) again in the next 18-24 months. I can't say that it's a wise thing, spending 160 million per election, and keep on doing that without a clear majority. That's foolhardy.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Quote:

Anyhow... I can't see what this exercise is going to net. I seriously doubt there will be a majority gov't, and this exercise will be repeated (and funded) again in the next 18-24 months. I can't say that it's a wise thing, spending 160 million per election, and keep on doing that without a clear majority. That's foolhardy.

Well gam, from the most recent numbers it looks like we could possibly see a majority conservative government. It seems as tho mr Martin's attack ads are turning off even more voters to the idea of giving the liberals another shot.

We won't know for sure until the 23rd but by the looks of things, it'll take a miracle or two in the next 7 days to pull this one off.






I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, thats as good as they are going to feel all day. ~ Dean Martin

Keep in mind a conservative government isn't always a good thing; just look at the U.S. since 2001:

And liberal isn't better--look at California before Conan the Republican took over.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

Quote:

Keep in mind a conservative government isn't always a good thing; just look at the U.S. since 2001:

With any government, liberal, conservative, ndp... the way it operates and the decisions made ultimately fall on the shoulders of the leader who is the head of that party.

Voters should be smart enough to see through the liberals propoganda, just because Harper is leading the conservative government in Canada that doesn't mean that all of a sudden he is going to morph into a Bush jr.









I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, thats as good as they are going to feel all day. ~ Dean Martin

Actually, the funny thing Graden: The Conservatives are making promises they just can't finance without cutting health care, and are planning on going soft on the western provinces (Alberta specifically) for transfer taxes (Highest provincial GDP of the intaking provinces, and their GDP is higher than the next 3 provinces combined).

Nice one on them

Seriously, I think it'll be another minority government and this little exercise will be repeated in a year or 18 months.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

When money isn't being stolen to pad certain individuals pockets there is more to go around, healthcare for example... (C'mon Gam, you knew I'd throw that one in there somewhere.)

What good is having a 9 billion dollar surplus or whatever amount they are constantly boasting about doing for us? It doesn't do me any good, it hasent changed anything for me at all. Yet I'm still paying the same amount of tax. My healthcare hasent improved from what it was, the roads aren't any better, I don't feel any more or less safe, (I could go on and on.)

Balanced books are how us as taxpayers can see that what can (should) be spent on us is being spent on us and that we are reaping the rewards. The only thing showing a surplus does is tells us as taxpayers that we were either a: paying too much in taxes or b: somewhere along the line they havent been putting into the system what they should have been all along.


I think that as we get closer and closer to the 23rd more voters are and will be going conservative. The liberals are not going to get their third kick at the can. Martin is constantly on the defensive and everyone sees this, his attack ads... they're working against him.

You're right, we don't want a minority government. Polls are showing a conservative victory, more and more voters who may have not been conservative before, may go conservative just to have that majority government that we want. Bandwagon jumpers... we see it in hockey all the time, it looks like it could be a factor with our recent election.










I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, thats as good as they are going to feel all day. ~ Dean Martin

pffft!!!

Polls said a Conservative minority last time around... Polls mean nothing until the day after election day. Surpluses for now are being spent on debt reduction and some social programmes... I think they could be put to better use (like military equipment renewal, police hiring projects... etc.) but, at least it's a postion of having extra money, and not looking for the money to finance out promises.

And, Bandwagon jumpers usually don't vote from my experience.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Any surplus should go straight to debt reduction, then the taxation changed to reduce the surplus. New programs (or any programs for that matter) should stand on their own merit, not becomne vadil or invalid due to funding. I am a firm believer in targeted taxation. You collect a tax targeted at road works, we better get some road works and not have it diverted to child care for example. You want child care, present a plan and tax appropriately.

Anyway, when we come up short we borrow, when we come up with a surplus, we should be paying down debt. It just makes sense. Right now 30% of tax collected (or close to it) is going towards maintaning the debt. Just think, if we were debt free, we could easily keep our level of service and reduce taxes by 30%!!! 30%!! think about it. The only downside would be our dollar.. Too strong if we were debt free. Not such a bad problem to have.

PAX

I think the correct balance has been struck fiscally. We've seen modest tax decreases (provincial ones higher in Ontario.. *grumble*), Debt reduction... Service has stayed more or less the same federally.

Why fix it if it ain't broken?



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Quote:

The only downside would be our dollar.. Too strong if we were debt free. Not such a bad problem to have.

Our dollar being so strong has a HUGE downside. Canada, being a country who depends so heavily on our exports... it is not a good thing to have an extremely strong dollar. Companies are going broke and people are losing their jobs because of the stregnth of our dollar. Americans themselves and American companies are not spending as much north of the border, this is not a small problem.





I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, thats as good as they are going to feel all day. ~ Dean Martin

Americans haven't been spending here since about 2000 when the dollar was trading at <$0.65 USD.

If we start developing and really leveraging our natural resources, we'll be in a better fiscal position I think, we're already heavily invested in manufacturing and the US companies in Canada have been pulling out for the last 8 years since NAFTA brought cheap labour and lax environmental controls into the mix from Mexico.





Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Quote:

If we start developing and really leveraging our natural resources,

Oh yeah, cause the Liberals really protect our natural resources and make such a huge effort there [/ end sarcasm]

Quote:

Americans haven't been spending here since about 2000 when the dollar was trading at <$0.65 USD.

Americans spend TONS of money here. How can you say they havent been spending?!?

There is a huge chunk of the economy here that is affected by the stregnth of our dollar. I can name at least 20 good sized businesses within our city alone who are in jeopardy because of the amounts of sales to the US is decreasing rapidly. Why is it decreasing rapidly??? It's because of our strong dollar. I havent even touched on the tourism industry that has taken a huge hit here in BC.

Finally it looks as tho we will get a government into power who even has a clue about whats going on out west. Sure it took the Liberals doing it to themselves, but its about frickin time we got someone into power who even gives two $hits about whats going on out west.







I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, thats as good as they are going to feel all day. ~ Dean Martin

Ottawa, Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver lost over 60% of the tourism dollars from 2000 after 9/11. You'd think that it'd bounce back, but it hasn't in 5 years... That's not on the strength of the dollar, because in 2002-03 it was trading at about $0.65 USD... the dollar was a LOT lower, the country was just as secure as before, and there isn't as much money coming in.

Our manufacturing industry hasn't recovered from what it was in the mid 80's (after the last blue Gov'ts Free Trade ideas were rooted). We've been relying on our natural resources, and even then, we're getting screwed on the back end because we pay more for the refied products, and we also get to deal with the fact that we've been getting screwed by the US consistently (wheat, Softwood lumber, foodstuffs, beef, Electricity, oil, water, what few automotive manufacturing facilities we have left, the list goes on) for the last 20 years. We've had to shift our economy from a manufactured goods based economy to a more diverse one but we're shifting to natural resources, and the problem with that is that we're not in full control of them.

The Conservatives may know what's happening in the west, but, again, when you have an Albertan (please correct me if I'm wrong about Harper) who's never lived as resident of a province that has to pay taxes out to the rest of the provinces and enjoyed the dividend cheques that were brought about because of federal oil exploration money, I don't think he's in touch with the rest of Canada.

Either way, if you don't win Quebec AND Ontario, you won't form a majority Gov't. I'm sorry, but I don't see conservatives making much headway in Quebec, that's a Bloc/Liberal area, after Bouchard left the conservatives, you can bet they don't have much if any foot hold in the area.





Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

With 30% lower taxation, we could afford to lower prices a bit

Heck, we'd become the mecca of the west if we were to actually pull it off.

PAX

Harper was born in Toronto, moved to Alberta in his early twenties to work in the oil and gas industry. After that he attended the University of Calgary where he recieved his masters degree in economics.

-Interesting fact I just found- He first became involved in politics in high school where he served as a member of the young Liberals club.





I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, thats as good as they are going to feel all day. ~ Dean Martin

And how he has strayed since

Seriously, working in the oil industry, you'd think he could have made a private fortune... Martin already has done that. You'd also think that with a master's degree of economics, he'd know how to add up the total costs of his promises.

Sorry, I couldn't resist. Harper just doesn't appeal to me as a social liberal, nor as a fiscal moderate. If I didn't know my local candidate on a first name basis (and given that my area has been liberal since it was created as a riding unto it's own), I'd be tempted to vote Green.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

I wouldn't say strayed... more like, saw the light

Martin may have made his own personal fortune but I would never vote for a man who uses personal offshore accounts to avoid paying taxes in a country which he is currently running. Until the 23rd anyway






I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, thats as good as they are going to feel all day. ~ Dean Martin

Why is that though? His business dealings (which he has no control over now, and hasn't since he became PM) and political dealings are separate. As long as there's no conflict of interest regarding the gov't and the shipping business and as long as no laws are broken, where's the problem?

I don't personally enjoy paying taxes, and if the company is registered in the Caymans and flies under the Dominican flag for convenience, there's no problem there at all... it's not uncommon in the shipping industry (Same with Greece and several other places that offer tax haven for shipping companies). If you're going to get uptight about that, then I suggest you also get uptight about oil companies sheltering billions of dollars in Zurich, Grand Cayman and the Dominican in tax shelters.

They make their money the way they make their money, if it's legal, it's legal. What's the problem?




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

I guess the problem is that some people are pissed that Paul Martin is running for Prime Minister, a person thats supposed to represent the best things about this country and be as patriotic as possible but yet he didn't even pay his taxes here.

I don't mind Harper but I would really like Peter MacKay to be the conservative leader.

He pays his taxes... that's plain and simple. The business isn't obligated to pay taxes on money it doesn't earn in Canada, that's pretty simple too.

Look, if you want to save yourself a lot of money: incorporate yourself, start contracting your services, and use corporate tax shelters to hide your money from the Gov't. You're not going to pay close to what you'd pay as an individual (about 80% less) to begin with, and you're also going to be allowed to get an accountant or lawyer to find you places to stash your money so it will pay no or very little tax (think 5% or less). You'll also end up owning nothing or very little, because your company will own whatever you buy with it, and be allowed to depreciate the value of the items and shed more tax burden.

If you don't believe me, check with your lawyer.

And, if you don't think that Martin isn't the best of the best:
- Why was the Gomery inquiry (convened by the liberal gov't during a majority) allowed to continue?
- When was the last time Canada had balanced budgets and surpluses?
- What was our stature during the last conservative gov't? (I'll give you a hint, overtaxed boring American butt-boy).

Maybe McKay would have been a better leader for the CRAP... damn certain he has a lot more charisma and ability to relate to humans. I think the only thing that Harper could have a meaningful conversation with is this guy:











Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

It's not that I don't believe you at all Gam, I know the in's and out's and I pay my taxes. It may not be illegal for his company to operate in the way that it does but I definitely see it as unethical. Mr Martin is not a man of good character.

You can't honestly think that this guy is the best of the best. That was a joke right? I hope.

Quote:

- Why was the Gomery inquiry (convened by the liberal gov't during a majority) allowed to continue?

They were between a rock and a hard place... The inquiry went forward because the Liberals were trying to save face. If the inquiry had not gone forward that would have been the same as them admitting to the alleged.

Quote:

- When was the last time Canada had balanced budgets and surpluses?

If our government has this wonderful balanced budget and all these surpluses why don't we see any difference? Isn't it supposed to have the trickle down effect to us as Canadians? It's our money, not theirs.

The bottom line is, the Liberals have been taking too much in taxes from us for a long time and have not been providing us with the improvements to services in which we deserve. They've never been held accountable, now that they are being held accountable, they are going to lose.

I don't even need to start mentioning the amounts of broken promises that the Liberals have piled up, there are enough nails in this coffin.

Quote:

- What was our stature during the last conservative gov't? (I'll give you a hint, overtaxed boring American butt-boy).

- So you are saying that you don't think our new conservative government will not be any different than the last conservative government that was in power ??? At the same time... you are more than willing to forgive and forget everything wrong that the liberals have done since 93? Thats... quite the contradiction.

Oh but wait... I can hear the argument coming now, lol.

Quote:

- When was the last time Canada had balanced budgets and surpluses?

You mentioned taxes... How much have those come down since the Liberals have been governing??? Please, forgive me if that figure doesn't come to mind right now.

Quote:

Maybe McKay would have been a better leader for the CRAP... damn certain he has a lot more charisma and ability to relate to humans. I think the only thing that Harper could have a meaningful conversation with is this guy:

Now thats just showing true Liberal colours... name-calling and going on the attack when desperation sets in.

The Liberals have been pretty quick to question the Conservative's values and their patriotism to Canada yet now they're saying that voters in Quebec should do anything to stop Harper. Martin's buddie Hargrove shat the bed big-time and this one is going to hurt, he was quoted saying "Quebecers should do anything necessary to stop Harper from winning --- even voting for the Bloc Quebecois." Who's pro separatist now? Their last minute desperate attempts are a joke and they're being laughed right out of Ottawa.

The Liberals, crumbling in Atlantic Canada, abject in Quebec, faltering in their Toronto heartland and dying in B.C., no longer stand in Harper's way. Only the NDP can send enough MP's to Ottawa to deny the Conservative party a free rein. Thats exactly why Layton is reduced to begging wavering Liberals to "lend" their vote to the NDP just this once.

The way its looking, they should be issuing an earthquake alert for Monday, Jan 23rd. A seismic shift is about to occur in Canadian politics, and the governing Liberals could literally be left whimpering in the corner like a whipped dog.

The real program is that if "King" Jack gets to keep his much-coveted crown as power-broker in another minority government.









I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, thats as good as they are going to feel all day. ~ Dean Martin

Graden wrote:It's not that I don't believe you at all Gam, I know the in's and out's and I pay my taxes. It may not be illegal for his company to operate in the way that it does but I definitely see it as unethical. Mr Martin is not a man of good character.

Well, you say that in one hand, and you're going to vote for a career politician? I'd rather vote for someone that owes no favours.

Quote:


You can't honestly think that this guy is the best of the best. That was a joke right? I hope.

He's the best of what's there, there's a fine difference.

Quote:

- Why was the Gomery inquiry (convened by the liberal gov't during a majority) allowed to continue?

They were between a rock and a hard place... The inquiry went forward because the Liberals were trying to save face. If the inquiry had not gone forward that would have been the same as them admitting to the alleged.
Not necessarily... Lest you forget the way Mulroney slithered out of influence peddling charges in 87.

Quote:

Quote:

- When was the last time Canada had balanced budgets and surpluses?

If our government has this wonderful balanced budget and all these surpluses why don't we see any difference? Isn't it supposed to have the trickle down effect to us as Canadians? It's our money, not theirs.

Tell the CRAP that. If you spend into defecit territory (as happened in the 80's under the PC's), you have to pay it back, or at least stop from drowning and incurring more bad debt.

For your info, the last time Canada had a balanced budgets was under Trudeau after the Liberal party took down the Conservative minority gov't headed by Joe Clark (a Gov't that had proposed massive defecit spending, see a theme?).

Quote:


The bottom line is, the Liberals have been taking too much in taxes from us for a long time and have not been providing us with the improvements to services in which we deserve. They've never been held accountable, now that they are being held accountable, they are going to lose.

Do you need to be reminded that of the 3 biggest tax increases in Canadian History, only one was under a Liberal Government? Seriously, the GST, and the 1984-91 conservative governments were responsible for a 20% increase in taxes overall. The 7% isn't even refundable once you're over a certain amount! The GST was the epitome of tax and spend... the Conservatives brought it in as a way to finance the stupid amount of debt they were incurring, and they never bothered to slow down the spending.

Quote:

I don't even need to start mentioning the amounts of broken promises that the Liberals have piled up, there are enough nails in this coffin.

You want a manifest of broken promises by any politician? Some things are great ideas on paper, but when you get to the point of wanting to put it into action, you just can't pay for it or it isn't such a great idea after all. This is the nature of politics.

Quote:

Quote:

- What was our stature during the last conservative gov't? (I'll give you a hint, overtaxed boring American butt-boy).

- So you are saying that you don't think our new conservative government will not be any different than the last conservative government that was in power ??? At the same time... you are more than willing to forgive and forget everything wrong that the liberals have done since 93? Thats... quite the contradiction.

Oh but wait... I can hear the argument coming now, lol.

Quote:

- When was the last time Canada had balanced budgets and surpluses?

You're assuming it will be conservative majority, I wouldn't count your chickens before they hatch.

And, You missed the point.... Harper is a Neo-con, just like Bush is a Neo-con, they hold the same values, and have the same views, just like Mulroney and Reagan. And the problem is that the last 3 conservative governments have co incided with a republican Gov't, and that has produced unheard of debt, defecit and decline in Canada's economy, and has reduced our stature in the world's stage to the yes-man for the US. That isn't a role I'm at all comfortable with... I don't think we ought to be contrary, but being able to stand on our own with our own voice is imperative.

Quote:

You mentioned taxes... How much have those come down since the Liberals have been governing??? Please, forgive me if that figure doesn't come to mind right now.

Taxes have held the line, but the Basic personal exemption has increased by about 3% per year. If you avail yourself of the services of a CPA or some gold-level tax programs, you can save significant amounts more.

Quote:

Quote:

Maybe McKay would have been a better leader for the CRAP... damn certain he has a lot more charisma and ability to relate to humans. I think the only thing that Harper could have a meaningful conversation with is this guy:

Now thats just showing true Liberal colours... name-calling and going on the attack when desperation sets in.

Actually, it's not name calling at all... at least... not in spite.

CRAP was the acronym you get when you take the first letter of the proposed name for the Reform/PC alliance. Conservative Reform Alliance Party... Dubbed by none other than Preston Manning, and even Harper said it was a good idea until Mackay let them in on the secret.

Maybe you don't remember that...

Quote:

The Liberals have been pretty quick to question the Conservative's values and their patriotism to Canada yet now they're saying that voters in Quebec should do anything to stop Harper. Martin's buddie Hargrove shat the bed big-time and this one is going to hurt, he was quoted saying "Quebecers should do anything necessary to stop Harper from winning --- even voting for the Bloc Quebecois." Who's pro separatist now? Their last minute desperate attempts are a joke and they're being laughed right out of Ottawa.

Not hardly.

Buzz Hargrove, the CAW, and CLC have always been staunch NDP backers, but they can see the NDP's influence on the wane... I mean, the NDP lost offical federal party status under Audrey McLaughlan (or was it Alexa Mcdonough?) anyhow... The thing that Hargrove has said that the Conservatives have been making it no small secret that they're anti-union, and anti-labour law. I haven't seen or read that personally, but it doesn't surprise me.

Quote:

The Liberals, crumbling in Atlantic Canada, abject in Quebec, faltering in their Toronto heartland and dying in B.C., no longer stand in Harper's way. Only the NDP can send enough MP's to Ottawa to deny the Conservative party a free rein. Thats exactly why Layton is reduced to begging wavering Liberals to "lend" their vote to the NDP just this once.

Before you get too much a head uf steam up: Liberals have had 1 competitor in Quebec in the last 25 years... that was the Bloc, and the Bloc hasn't got control of most of Montreal's ridings, mainly because the PQ was the ineffective left hand of the separatist movement. Toronto is as much Liberal, and Conservative, and NDP, don't forget that's where the NDP started. BC liberals are struggling, and Conservatives in Alberta haven't had to deal with paying into the provincial transfer fund... so a reality check is in order. Atlantic Canada hasn't got enough seats to really swing the balance...

What I said earlier, that you're forgetting: If you do not win Ontario and Quebec, you will not form the Majority. Quebec is off the table.

Quote:


The way its looking, they should be issuing an earthquake alert for Monday, Jan 23rd. A seismic shift is about to occur in Canadian politics, and the governing Liberals could literally be left whimpering in the corner like a whipped dog.

You have grand ideas don't you?

Canada isn't as radically Conservative as you'd like to think. Harper may head a gov't, but it won't be a majority I'll wager. I also don't think that the Liberals will head a majority for that matter either, but then again, if the exercise is repeated in 18 months, whomever brings down the government will be the bad guy.

Quote:

The real program is that if "King" Jack gets to keep his much-coveted crown as power-broker in another minority government.

The NDP won't form a federal Gov't. They're too regionalised, just like the Bloc. Duceppe and Leyton are just as responsible for this government going down as Harper.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.