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Well, you say that in one hand, and you're going to vote for a career politician? I'd rather vote for someone that owes no favours.

Owes no favors? What are you trying to say here Gam? You can't believe that there is a politician in existance anywhere in the world who doens't owe favors to someone.

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He's the best of what's there, there's a fine difference.

You said that he was the "best of the best", I was just quoting you.

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Not necessarily... Lest you forget the way Mulroney slithered out of influence peddling charges in 87.

Are you trying to compare influence peddling charges which to what was found out by Gomery? (I actually laughed when I read that one.)

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Tell the CRAP that. If you spend into defecit territory (as happened in the 80's under the PC's), you have to pay it back, or at least stop from drowning and incurring more bad debt.

You're assuming that as soon as the Tories get into power that they will run right back into the problems that the PC's did, that won't happen. My point all along on this topic has been that there IS money there to work with and that our money hasen't been properly spent or managed. Governments are NOT put into place to make money, they are supposed to take the right amounts of taxes from its people to properly supply us with the services that we need. We deserve it.

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Do you need to be reminded that of the 3 biggest tax increases in Canadian History, only one was under a Liberal Government? Seriously, the GST, and the 1984-91 conservative governments were responsible for a 20% increase in taxes overall. The 7% isn't even refundable once you're over a certain amount! The GST was the epitome of tax and spend... the Conservatives brought it in as a way to finance the stupid amount of debt they were incurring, and they never bothered to slow down the spending.

Do I need to remind you how many times the Liberals have promised tax cuts in the past to the GST to get elected and they havent followed through?

Again, there is a surplus... we deserve tax cuts, the Liberals were too busy stealing our money and giving it to their buddies to even consider giving us any cuts. Harper will give us one point right out of the gates and another point in the next 5 years. There still hasen't been a real "unbiased" financial analyst who has come forward to knock holes in Harper's plans, the only people who have found problems with it are his competition.. go figure.

How can you not take offense to what they have done??? As far as I am concerned those involved in this scandal were stealing money from me? That is STEALING my tax dollars and you want the same party back in power...? Explain it to me how you can look past this and still vote Liberal.

Say I walked into your house when you were sleeping and stole your tv, you caught me, I admitted it. If I said I was sorry, would you leave me a key under the mat so I could possibly do it again, just because I asked nicely?

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You missed the point.... Harper is a Neo-con, just like Bush is a Neo-con, they hold the same values, and have the same views, just like Mulroney and Reagan. And the problem is that the last 3 conservative governments have co incided with a republican Gov't, and that has produced unheard of debt, defecit and decline in Canada's economy, and has reduced our stature in the world's stage to the yes-man for the US. That isn't a role I'm at all comfortable with...

I haven't missed this point. We've heard this time and time again by the opposition. "Oh well, if the Tories get in we'll just turn into America Jr." Thats total bs, just because someone shares some of the same values and views of another that doesn't mean that we'll do everything they do. I haven't seen Harper turn into a blubbering idiot, have you? Drawing those conclusions is only an act of desperation.

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I don't think we ought to be contrary, but being able to stand on our own with our own voice is imperative.

Being able to stand on our own with our own voice !!! Yeah, tell me about it, Western Canadians know this better than anyone else. We haven't had a government in power who gives two $hits about what goes on west of Ontario since 1993.

Standing on our own is empowering US and having the opportunities made available to us to make our lives better if we so choose to take advantage of those opportunities. There is no other party running who will give us more opportunity than the Tories. Prime example... western Canada, we cannot find enough people for the jobs.

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Actually, it's not name calling at all... at least... not in spite.

You used it in that context, I know where it came from.

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Buzz Hargrove, the CAW, and CLC have always been staunch NDP backers, but they can see the NDP's influence on the wane... I mean, the NDP lost offical federal party status under Audrey McLaughlan (or was it Alexa Mcdonough?) anyhow... The thing that Hargrove has said that the Conservatives have been making it no small secret that they're anti-union, and anti-labour law. I haven't seen or read that personally, but it doesn't surprise me.

Hargroves word is worth about... well pretty much nothing, he already proved that. I haven't seen or read anything regarding this either.

Why would you try to align Hargrove more with the NDP than the Liberals??? He said what he said while standing next to and supporting Mr Martin in a Strathory, Ont., restaurant while he was endorsing local Liberal candidates. Obviously he was sharing the general views of the Liberal government and he slipped up bigtime.

Of course I have grand ideas... we have been waiting for this for 13 years even if you can't see it now, its the best thing that can happen for Canada.

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The NDP won't form a federal Gov't. They're too regionalised, just like the Bloc. Duceppe and Leyton are just as responsible for this government going down as Harper.

I didn't say they'd form a federal Gov't, I said that they could end up being the power broker.






I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, thats as good as they are going to feel all day. ~ Dean Martin

Graden wrote:

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Well, you say that in one hand, and you're going to vote for a career politician? I'd rather vote for someone that owes no favours.

Owes no favors? What are you trying to say here Gam? You can't believe that there is a politician in existance anywhere in the world who doens't owe favors to someone.

What I was saying is that Martin doesn't need politics... he can make a healthy amount of money otherwise.

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Not necessarily... Lest you forget the way Mulroney slithered out of influence peddling charges in 87.

Are you trying to compare influence peddling charges which to what was found out by Gomery? (I actually laughed when I read that one.)

No, because the PC's threw a wet towel on that one pretty fast. We'll never officially know now, will we?

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Tell the CRAP that. If you spend into defecit territory (as happened in the 80's under the PC's), you have to pay it back, or at least stop from drowning and incurring more bad debt.

You're assuming that as soon as the Tories get into power that they will run right back into the problems that the PC's did, that won't happen. My point all along on this topic has been that there IS money there to work with and that our money hasen't been properly spent or managed. Governments are NOT put into place to make money, they are supposed to take the right amounts of taxes from its people to properly supply us with the services that we need. We deserve it.

You're assuming it won't either, and you're further assuming that they will be elected in the majority.

Also, how can you sit there and say that it hasn't been put to good use? We've had progressively lower debts through serious fiscal downturns, and surplusses have been put towards tax relief (through increased personal income tax exemptions) and put against the debt. Need I point out that in 1994 when the Balanced Budget act was proposed, EVERY PC and Reform voted against it?

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Do you need to be reminded that of the 3 biggest tax increases in Canadian History, only one was under a Liberal Government? Seriously, the GST, and the 1984-91 conservative governments were responsible for a 20% increase in taxes overall. The 7% isn't even refundable once you're over a certain amount! The GST was the epitome of tax and spend... the Conservatives brought it in as a way to finance the stupid amount of debt they were incurring, and they never bothered to slow down the spending.

Do I need to remind you how many times the Liberals have promised tax cuts in the past to the GST to get elected and they havent followed through?

Did you not read the part about the increased personal income Tax exemption? That has to be agreed to by the finance minister, it's not "tax relief" in the sense that it is rescinding taxes, but it's more of your money that will not be taxed. It's the same thing. Followed through on for 12 years, might I add.

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Again, there is a surplus... we deserve tax cuts, the Liberals were too busy stealing our money and giving it to their buddies to even consider giving us any cuts. Harper will give us one point right out of the gates and another point in the next 5 years. There still hasen't been a real "unbiased" financial analyst who has come forward to knock holes in Harper's plans, the only people who have found problems with it are his competition.. go figure.

Harper hasn't planned any tax cuts. In fact, it's pretty clear, he's looking to ramp up taxes:

London Free Press
Globe & Mail
CTV article

So in other words, he's promising tax cuts to the GST, spending more and wiping out the Surplus? Do tell, how is it that we're not going to end up footing that bill? The Financial plans for the last 12 years were sound, and worked, and gave us balanced budgets, why fix something that ain't broke?

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How can you not take offense to what they have done??? As far as I am concerned those involved in this scandal were stealing money from me? That is STEALING my tax dollars and you want the same party back in power...? Explain it to me how you can look past this and still vote Liberal.

Simple: The PC candidate in my Riding is a career politician and when he lived in Montreal, he campaigned under the flag of the Bloc Quebecois. I will not vote for that man. The Liberal Candidate has lived here for over 25 years, his Daughter goes to the catholic school just across the street, and, If I call him, he can speak to me by NAME. That's Credibility.

On top of that, How can you look at what has happened previously in Ontario under Mike Harris (who was seriously courted for the new CRAP leadership), and see 15 hospitals (the ones running in the black), over 200 firehouses closed, diminished police presence, and on top of that, imposing a 12 minute deadline for paramedic services, and then cutting the budgets for them? I don't trust a Conservative candidate that has no outside source of income, has no ability to tally up the cost of a government doing business, and makes promises that cannot be financed. How can you look past that and not vote Liberal?

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Say I walked into your house when you were sleeping and stole your tv, you caught me, I admitted it. If I said I was sorry, would you leave me a key under the mat so I could possibly do it again, just because I asked nicely?

What if a person shot the judge that was supposed to look over your case before it ever came to trial?

Use a proper analogy.

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I haven't missed this point. We've heard this time and time again by the opposition. "Oh well, if the Tories get in we'll just turn into America Jr." Thats total bs, just because someone shares some of the same values and views of another that doesn't mean that we'll do everything they do. I haven't seen Harper turn into a blubbering idiot, have you? Drawing those conclusions is only an act of desperation.

Have you seen Martin go the same way?

Look, same talk, same values, same political ideas... If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck.... It's a Duck.

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I don't think we ought to be contrary, but being able to stand on our own with our own voice is imperative.

Being able to stand on our own with our own voice !!! Yeah, tell me about it, Western Canadians know this better than anyone else. We haven't had a government in power who gives two $hits about what goes on west of Ontario since 1993.

Dare I say, not even then. Things aren't perfect, but no Gov't can focus on western provinces (even though you get 2 olympic games and about 45% of tourism dollars as well as a pass on paying into the Transfer Tax, and even get to dip into that pot pretty heavily, you're welcome) and stay in power.

Simple fact: Over 50% of Canada is in Ontario and Quebec. We're more heavily taxed than most westerners will ever be, this is THE economic heart of the country. Get used to it.

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Standing on our own is empowering US and having the opportunities made available to us to make our lives better if we so choose to take advantage of those opportunities. There is no other party running who will give us more opportunity than the Tories. Prime example... western Canada, we cannot find enough people for the jobs.

Congratulations, you're stating the same thing as here in Ontario. Oh wait... that's SKILLED jobs. Gee, you think tax cuts might help stop the brain drain? What about giving people more buying power? Seems to me that a stronger dollar and higher personal exemptions would do that eh? Fancy that.

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Actually, it's not name calling at all... at least... not in spite.

You used it in that context, I know where it came from.

I think it's apro-pos.

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Buzz Hargrove, the CAW, and CLC have always been staunch NDP backers, but they can see the NDP's influence on the wane... I mean, the NDP lost offical federal party status under Audrey McLaughlan (or was it Alexa Mcdonough?) anyhow... The thing that Hargrove has said that the Conservatives have been making it no small secret that they're anti-union, and anti-labour law. I haven't seen or read that personally, but it doesn't surprise me.

Hargroves word is worth about... well pretty much nothing, he already proved that. I haven't seen or read anything regarding this either.

Harper's word is worth about the same when a US company decides to shut down a union shop and send it south... Thanks Mr. Mulroney.

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Why would you try to align Hargrove more with the NDP than the Liberals??? He said what he said while standing next to and supporting Mr Martin in a Strathory, Ont., restaurant while he was endorsing local Liberal candidates. Obviously he was sharing the general views of the Liberal government and he slipped up bigtime.

Hrmm.. could it be that he's supporting a party that will make it into power? The NDP will not convene a government. They have, however, had very friendly labour policies classically. BTW, I've worked in a unionised shop, and we've been asked several times to vote for the NDP, and each time, I voted Liberal, and they made out just fine anyhow.

When I was working @ the Canadian Labour Congress, come election time, there was invariably at least a dozen NDP candidate signs on the front lawn. Labour = NDP.

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Of course I have grand ideas... we have been waiting for this for 13 years even if you can't see it now, its the best thing that can happen for Canada.

I'm sure there were a lot of people saying that in 1984 too.

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The NDP won't form a federal Gov't. They're too regionalised, just like the Bloc. Duceppe and Leyton are just as responsible for this government going down as Harper.

I didn't say they'd form a federal Gov't, I said that they could end up being the power broker.

They were the swing vote, not a power broker... I doubt that they'll have stonger appeal this time around.


Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Today is the day, Monday the 23rd is upon us and tonight we'll find out tonight who will be leading our country.

Gam, its been a good debate in which I did enjoy. You are clear in the way you communicate your opinion, and we weren't reduced to petty namecalling or personally attaching each other. Both of which are nice to see when sharing our different views from different sides of the country. We have showed that we are both very steadfast with our decisions and our reasoning behind them, I didn't think either of us would actually sway the others vote.

By reading your views and your reasons behind your vote I learned alot about what strong Liberal supporters were like, what they believe in and what is important to them. In the end, we want the same thing, we want a strong government who makes this country a better place to live in than it already is. We just disagree on who is going to get us there.

I cast my vote this morning on the way to work. I was happy to see some other younger people there voting as well which was encouraging. I wonder what it will take to get more people out there to cast their vote. Somehow getting the people back to the polls has to be done.. 60% las time around, that was pathetic.

I've heard mention about mandatory voting which goes on in Australia... I wonder if that is something that would work here.







I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, thats as good as they are going to feel all day. ~ Dean Martin

I think it might be something to consider. I don't know about Australia specifically, but I think I read somewhere that by not voting (there are 4-5 ways to vote), you would either get a fine of about $50, or in extreme cases, you wouldn't recieve your income tax refund for the year.

It was fun Graden

What I can say, without equivocation, is that I hope we don't have this discussion again in 18 months.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

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What I can say, without equivocation, is that I hope we don't have this discussion again in 18 months.

I hope that we don't have to either but my magic 8 ball gave me a "signs point to yes". We'll see tonight I guess, there are alot of really tight races which could go either way and it will be interesting to start seeing the results of those.







I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, thats as good as they are going to feel all day. ~ Dean Martin

As an american it's comforting, and disturbing to know that the same bull@!#$ we have to deal with happens up north.

That being said, no matter what happens, be glad your system isn't run by the same @!#$s ours is.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

Keeper: ours is mostly party politics, but, we don't vote for Prime Minister as a separate vote, the PM is the leader of the respective party that wins the most seats in the house of commons.

We also don't have an elected senate (lifetime appointments), There are few ways to get yourself fired from the Senate... This might be a good thing if you're a Senator. The idea is that the senators will keep an even keel and prevent any one party from exerting too much influence on the people. It seems to have worked fairly well in 139 yrs.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

GO NDP! Actually.. I know they won't win, but I can't stand Harper..




Red 2005 Saturn Ion-3 Coupe

I don't know WTH it's going to take for the Green Party to get some attention. I think they ought to have been included in the debates, seeing as they actually have a candidate in EVERY federal riding...




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Looks like there's a weak Conservative Minority with about 124 Cons, 102 Lib, 29 NDP, 50 BQ and 1 independant/Green out of 308 ridings total. (I might be wrong, the elections results web pages aren't getting through yet. Last election, the Liberals had 144 seats in the Commons, and it took 3 parties aligning against them to bring down the gov't. I hope Mr Harper doesn't get too comfortable on the right side of the legislature... We're going to have this little exercise in another couple months, my Magic 8-ball's sources are never wrong.

yaaay </UtterLackOfEnthusiasm>


Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:I hope Mr Harper doesn't get too comfortable on the right side of the legislature... We're going to have this little exercise in another couple months, my Magic 8-ball's sources are never wrong.
yaaay

dude. you need to chillout. sometimes change is necessary.
I mean really.... the final numbers aren't in and you're already
hoping for a vote of no confidence against the conservatives







[ o ][][][][][][][][ o ] cuz stock sux