GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:The Proof to the Non-existence of God
'I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, 'for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'
'But,' says Man, 'The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.'
'Oh dear,' says God, 'I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly disappears in a puff of logic.
you're on a spree tonight.
R.I.P. Brian St.Germain
MS Walk April 21 - thanks to those of you who have supported me!
Tristan wrote:upon further review, i realized i didn't bother to answer the original question. the whole idea of god testing us is one of the things that led me to atheism. if god is this omnipresent omnipotent entity then there are no choices. there is absolutely no point of a test because he knows the outcome. i've heard people argue that you have to prove your love to god and realize your sins and all this, but it always comes back to the fact that god already knows whether you love him or not. he knows if you have truly realized your sin and if you have passed his "test" before it ever happens. so what's the point? why create the earth? why create the universe? why create humans? why create other animals and science and logic and all these things? so we can further ourselves? but why? he knows how it ends. he knows where science ultimately leads us. it's like we're his little play things. we have no choices because if he is all-knowing. it's not a choice if it's already been determined. life happens. bad stuff happens to good people. good things happen to horrible people. live your life and stop worrying about god's test because i assure you there is no test. and if there is, then you have no control over it. everything you do or say or choose has already been determined. god knows how it ends. so why bother? i live my life because it's all i have. when it's over i'm going to rot in the ground. that's it. and i can tell you this, people can be just as "moral" without god. in fact, the few atheists i know are far better people (ethically and morally speaking) than any of my religious friends. but that's just my crappy two cents, worth just that and nothing more.
The test isn't for God. God needs nothing. The test is for you. You know where you failed and it's up to you to make the corrections.
You have choice, it's just that God knows you so well, he knows what you will choose. Like the baseball bat example, but far more subtle.
Why bother? Out of respect.
PAX
^^^^ I completely agree. God is sovereign, basically means he can do what he wants. He doesn't need the test, you do. Did a teacher ever test you in math so he could learn? Of course not, he tested you so you would learn. The teacher already knew the answers but he tested you to see how you would do. Testing (problems) make you who you are, good or bad. However the problems are still because of sin, not because of God. Humans do have free will and free choice, like I said before just because God knows the outcome doesn't mean we don't get to choose. He knows how our life will be, not us. We still need to live it.
Now as for God's existence: This will never be resolved, nobody can go back to the beginning of time and say "Oh! theres God!" or "Oh! there was the big bang!"
It's only belief vs belief. I believe in God, others believe in evolution or whatever else they want to believe in. You'll find out who's right when you die.
You can't outrun the radio.
God lives in a nuclear sub.
Goodbye Callisto & Skaši, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
I'm not saying you don't have a choice.
You DO have a choice. You can do anything you want. The main lessons of life you were destined to learn since birth CAN change on the fly. All of you should read up on some of Sylvia Brown's books. She's not some fake Miss Cleo, she's actually a real psychic that has written books on the afterlife/"the other side" and whatnot.
If nothing else, read it for entertainment. She has immense credibility. She's solved murder cases galore, helped send messages from loved ones long gone, etc. Seriously, just find one and read a little bit of it.
It doesn't matter if we know the outcome or not, the fact remains it's not a choice. Everything we do, everything we say has already been determined. You can't change the outcome. You have no control over anything because it's already been set in stone what happens. That's not a test. What "lessons" you learn and what sins you commit are already known by god. If your god exists, then none of us have free will. Me writing this has already been determined. I can't go back, delete it all and rewrite it unless I am suppose to. If I do, it's because that's what is supposed to happen. It may seem like I have to the choice to revise my statement, but it's not. If I did, I could change the outcome of what happens. But I can't because it's already been determined. Free will is defined as: The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will. If you're all knowing god exists then free will does not. I personally think the choices I make will effect everything I do. No one, no god, knows how my life will read and how it will all end. And the teacher story is not the same. The teacher doesn't know the answers you will choose. They don't know if you're going to write in cursive or not. They don't know how you will do on EVERY test he or she ever gives you. Your god does. All the teacher knows is the answers to the question, nothing more, nothing less. The comparison doesn't work.
A good teacher can predict a student's test scores within 5% or so. Honest.
That teacher is nothing remotely close to being God.
PAX
Did anyone miss my point? WHAT IF HUMANS THINK THEIR SMART BUT THEY REALLY ARENT, can you imagine how large our galaxy is, im sure there are other species out there who are completely diffrent from us. WHAT IF WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT THE UNIVERSE IS LESS THAN ONE PERCENT....we are not able to think like otheres. We are constrained, limited, and therefore logic is only what humans perceive to be logical...COMMON PEOPLE>.THINK
Don't we all have to agree on a definition of what "god" is before we can have an intellectual argument about it? If we can't agree on the definition, then we can definitely not agree that it is testing us. Even more so, if we can't agree on the definition of what god is, we can't argue that it exists or not without looking like fools. Hence, every discussion about god results in all parties looking like idiots.
Tristan, I believe you are confusing all knowing with all controlling. Knowing the outcome of a situation is different than influencing it. I'm not saying that God doesn't influence things, I'm merely stating that choice still exists even if somebody knows the outcome. In the bible it says that free choice is given to mankind, sooooo if my God does exist then he tells us we have free choice because He said He gave it to us. So if God exists then we have free choice, and if He doesn't then we have free choice. In the end we all have free choice. However, I don't expect to convince you of this because you don't believe in God in the first place. What does it even matter to you anyway? If you don't even believe God exists then why argue a hypothetical on what he is?
You can't outrun the radio.
it is possible to have free will and be all knowing; i explained it in an earlier thread.
but still, i see god as a fundamental implausibility, so I don't see him as testing us.
Goodbye Callisto & Skaši, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
d356(PA-J) wrote:I like to see one of you prove that god exists
Prove he doesn't.
Sam Frank wrote:I do apologize, I was typing pretty fast up there and noted alot of mistakes, if you could not decipher my MAIN point, well I seriously think that humans lack the ability to really acknowledge why were here.
Bingo. The fact that we still argue about a subject that has been a topic of human conversation since day 1, proves we are ultimately incapable of resolving the dispute. To truly determine if there is no God, we'd have to be able to understand all that is around us, yet we CLEARY don't.
Nothing will resolve this issue short of one's own death.
GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:The Proof to the Non-existence of God
'I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, 'for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'
'But,' says Man, 'The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.'
'Oh dear,' says God, 'I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly disappears in a puff of logic.
What? Is this in jest are you trying to be serious with this?
94 Red Bird wrote:
Now as for God's existence: This will never be resolved, nobody can go back to the beginning of time and say "Oh! theres God!" or "Oh! there was the big bang!"
I hate it when people do this. Believing in God does not mean rejecting the big bang... or evolution, for that matter.
For anyone else, if I had a time machine and went ten years into the future, and saw what became of KOTL, does that mean he doesn't have a choice? Because Agustin knew, so therefore it's predetermined?
As already stated, all-knowing is not all-controlling.
Too often the reasons I hear from athiests who used to be Christians as to why they are athiest always sprout from a lack of understanding. I hear things like...
"If God is good why are people starving?"
- Easily resolved in the Book of Genesis.
Anyway, I'm not going to drone on.
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People also seem to miss the fact that under God, all things are possible, except those which God has already stated are not (that list is very short).
Thanks Agustin.
PAX
Agustin--it's actually easier than that:
If everything that can happen, dows happen, then every outcome happens. It would mean that if there was God, that God would know every outcome of every choice and descsion, and thus, would be all-knowing and all seeing. We, with limited perspective and perceptions, would only percieve 1 timelinwe, while God could percieve infinite. Thus, whuile he woukld know everything we did, only we could pick the timeline we follow.
If birth is Seattle and death is Miami, then you could say God has the highway atlas of the U.S. We choose the roads we take to get there
Again, IF there's a God.
Goodbye Callisto & Skaši, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
At least you leave the door open a crack. Thanks Keeper, pagan SOB
PAX
lilbit01 wrote:god is an entirely human-created entity...therefore, there is no god.
This bothers me.
Howcome some people who don't believe in God are so willing to accept that they are the only ones who are right? Howcome they can't look outside the box and think that maybe there is a higher power and maybe that not everything in life has to be so logical and material.
I believe in God... with that said I am saying that I believe that God existed. I believe that God sent his son Jesus to die on the cross. Do I know this? Was I there? Not at all. It's called a belief for a reason because you will never know the truth until you die. I hate it when Christians force their beliefs on other people and I can't stand it when non-believers think that what they believe is the ultimate word.
Please try to be a little more open minded, that's all i'm saying.
Agustin, stop asking for people to prove god exists. That is a completely ignorant argument. You are the one asserting a belief, therefore the burden of proof is on you. As I stated earlier, if I told you that the smurfs created us and the universe you would have no responsibility to prove me wrong. If that's what I believed it would be my responsibility to prove they do. You can't prove the nonexistence of something.
Excuse my typo. What I meant to say was, Agustin stop asking people to prove god doesn't exist.
AGuSTiN wrote:
I hate it when people do this. Believing in God does not mean rejecting the big bang... or evolution, for that matter.
In Genesis it says God created everything in the earth in 6 days. I understand the point of your statement, however if you believe the bible is true I would find it impossible to believe in the big bang or evolution. I'm aware that there are many theories about the 6 day creation story, I have yet to hear one that makes sense to me. If God can do whatever he wants then he doesn't need evolution. I see evolution and other creation theories as mans attempt to explain why we are here if we weren't created by a supreme being. So therefore I don't see the two mixing too well. To me creation is the only thing that makes sense. When I see how everything works together I don't see how it could be by chance, now matter how many millions of years. google "creation evidence" or "evidence for creation". There is some pretty interesting scientific evidence that supports creation out there.
You can't outrun the radio.
Tristan wrote:Agustin, stop asking for people to prove god exists. That is a completely ignorant argument. You are the one asserting a belief, therefore the burden of proof is on you.
I was responding to someone who asserted they believed God didn't exist, by way of asking us to prove he does (because why would someone ask me to prove God exists if he believed it, too?). I owe no more proof to you that God exists than you owe to me.
It was a redundant question where I expected no response.
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94 Red Bird wrote:AGuSTiN wrote:
I hate it when people do this. Believing in God does not mean rejecting the big bang... or evolution, for that matter.
In Genesis it says God created everything in the earth in 6 days. I understand the point of your statement, however if you believe the bible is true I would find it impossible to believe in the big bang or evolution. I'm aware that there are many theories about the 6 day creation story, I have yet to hear one that makes sense to me. If God can do whatever he wants then he doesn't need evolution. I see evolution and other creation theories as mans attempt to explain why we are here if we weren't created by a supreme being. So therefore I don't see the two mixing too well. To me creation is the only thing that makes sense. When I see how everything works together I don't see how it could be by chance, now matter how many millions of years. google "creation evidence" or "evidence for creation". There is some pretty interesting scientific evidence that supports creation out there.
The story of creation in the Bible doesn't make sense. There was light before sun, Cain and Abel (Adam and Eve's boys) had wives when Genesis mentions no female siblings (and even then, it would be incest, strictly forbidden elsewhere in the Bible). The Tower of Babel was constructed so that it's creators could ascend into heaven, and God destroyed it and scrambled they languages so they could not. Obviously, there are problems with that story.
The Bible is a story book written many generations after the events. Just as a rumor cannot make it between 10 people in-tact, there are problems with the Bible.
Taking the Bible literally has countless problems.
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No one can prove God exists, ande no one can prove that it doesn't. Further, no one can prove any deity, if they exist, exists in the method in which any holy scripture, christian or otherwise, say they do.
It's a a faith/truth issue, not fact.
It would take factual proof that God doesn't exist to convince someone that believes in God to not believe in God anymore, and it would take factual proof that God does exist to convert the non believer...and in either case, there wouls still be holdovers
It's why i like faith, i find it intresting as long as people don't attack, and just discuss
.
Plus, hahaha, i said a fundamnetal implausibility, not impossibility
. I know that i could be wrong and my perception could be limited enough to not see the existence of God in the Monotheistic sense
. So, i can't say for certain whether or not God exists in the absolute--but in my relative perspective, I can't see the plausibility of God in the Monotheistic sense...
Just like you, most likely, cannot see the plausibility of there being no God
.
And i'll drink to that, Pagan S.O.B. to Christian S.O.B. and, as GAM's clan would say, "Let's slip our Dęmons under the Kilt"
Goodbye Callisto & Skaši, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Your still argueing over this? Good grief!
Please explain to us all how you can explain something that you can not comprehend?
You trying to understand God is the same as a fly trying to understand how your car works. If you ever figure out something beyond our capability of reasoning let me know, till then I'll keep right on believing.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Jackalope wrote:Your still argueing over this? Good grief!
It's just friendly discussion. I'm actually quite impressed that it didn't turn out to be a flame contest, and there were some good points made. Agustin and KOTL, I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree. Everybody has their own personal beliefs.
You can't outrun the radio.
Every @!#$ time I come down here, some twat pulls me up about what I should or shouldn't be doing. Either that or I have to enter into some philosophical discourse with some undergraduate twat about the nature of myself, the extent of my omnipotence, and all that @!#$.
I'm getting a little bit fed up with all this self-justification. It's not for you cunts to criticise me. I gave you the place. I made you in my own image. You lot get on with it. You @!#$ well sort it out.
That twat Nietszche was wide off the mark when he said that I was dead. I'm not dead. I just don't give a @!#$.
- God in 'The Acid House'
LS1's never blow up;
Spray that puppy... 02 sensors are overrated.
