American troops rape and murder.... - Page 5 - Politics and War Forum
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You may be evil, GAM, but i was talking the "Barbara Streissand/William Shatner" type of evil--not the "I can't believe it's not butter" type of evil. And yes, i know you're evil enough to fool bad romance novelists/models.
And hahaha, love trhe song. I'm picturing it sang to the rhythm of Nomans Land's "Lord of the Seas".
Goodbye Callisto & Skaši, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
[quote=GAM
I think the deployment time needs to be limited or the troops given more time home or something... those kinds of acts are not the kind of things liberators do (for all the vitrol that I have for the excuses for the war, you're in there, and you have to deal with it).
I couldn't agree more, I'm not saying what this soldier did was right, but who is to say that this isn't his 2nd or 3rd tour over there, I blame the US Government because deploying someone for a year and a half is wrong and eventually will cause people to do what ever is necessary to get out, they basically go crazy especially if this is a 2nd or 3rd time over there. Again I don't agree with what this soldier did, but would this have happened if the US Government cared more about the happiness and health of their troops? I think it wouldn't have. War does some strange things to people, I just feel sorry for all troops that have to go to another Country to fight for someone else's agenda, not America, its BS and it sickens me that many have died for this BS war!
Yeah, I know a few guys who have spend 1 yr deployments 3 out of the last 4 years. Really destroys the core motivation of these soldiers. I even know one LT that had his baby girl during his first deployment and hasn't seen her for 2 years. Never seen his own child!!! He didn't even get emergancy leave to see her born because it's not considered an emergancy. I really feel for him. Deployed, baby born, came back and ETS'ed right away to the CSH where he deployed again. Poor bastard. And I thought it was bad for me missing all my son's firsts.
Team GREEN
Suspension Division - "Handling Before Horsepower"
Making the turns since 1999
1998 EK Civic Hatch - Yes, it's a Honda.
These extended deployments are endemic of an occupation/rebuilding plan that is at best deeply flawed and at worst nebulous.
RaiLS:
I've heard of such things, and that's a damned shame. Most of these happened in Vietnam with mildly wounded enlistee's, but this is rediculous.
Unknown Veteran:
First: Welcome
Second: Occasionally, I make a salient point... Thanks for picking up on it
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
I hate to resurrect this thread, but I got to reading this article, and I have to say I agree with what the writer is saying, even though I don't always.
Link
Toronto Sun 2006.08.09 wrote:
U.S. shame in Iraq
By PETER WORTHINGTON
Of all the Iraq horror stories, this is arguably the most appalling condemnation of American soldiers yet: Five of them accused of raping a 14-year-old girl, shooting her family, and then shooting her.
According to testimony at a hearing in Baghdad this week, it seems the stressed-out soldiers were off-duty, bored, and one of them suggested it'd be fun to kill some Iraqis. They were likely drunk, but rather than a mitigating factor, that exacerbates the crime.
There have been a lot of outrageous acts since the U.S. invasion of Iraq. And I'm thinking of American acts, not Saddam Hussein's obscenities.
Saddam had dissenters impaled on butcher hooks in Abu Ghraib prison; he had victims buried (some of them alive) in 300 mass graves across the country; he apparently had people fed into human shredders -- feet first. But war crimes should not be judged on a comparative basis. We expect better of our troops, and our allies.
While outrages by Americans -- e.g., the military police abuses in Abu Ghraib prison -- don't begin to match the horrors that happened under Saddam, they reflect badly on the U.S, army, the American people, and all those who look to America as a representative of decency.
Until they were exposed and punished, some American guards at Abu Ghraib abused, humiliated, harassed, and terrified prisoners by using dogs, by stripping them, by sexually violating them and by committing various other indignities. They even killed one prisoner, but skewered no one on butcher hooks or fed them to shredders.
The hearing for the soldiers accused of rape and murder has yet to decide whether they will be court-martialled. If they are, and they're convicted, they'll face the death penalty. (A fifth soldier has been arrested in the U.S., and charged with the rape and murder, and will face proceedings in civilian court.)
Evidence at the hearing so far indicates the attackers dressed in black and donned ski masks, assaulted an Iraqi household and killed the parents and a 5-year-old, and took turns raping the 14-year-old before killing her. If true, they have shamed every American who wears a uniform and every American ally.
In my view, there is only one response to such an outrage: The main perpetrators should have been shot on the spot, but since they weren't, they should be executed, if found guilty. This incident is far, far more reprehensible than desertion or cowardice (for which one can have grudging sympathy).
It would have been appropriate if other soldiers had interrupted this act, and shot the perpetrators on the spot.
Such incidents are not unknown in war.
In the early days of the Korean war, a Canadian patrol came across a couple of American soldiers who'd left their unit and were in the midst of raping and killing a Korean family. The Canadian soldiers shot the rapists, said nothing, and carried on.
This story appears in Find the Dragon: The Canadian Army in Korea, 1950-53 (Four Winds, 1995), Robert Hepenstall's memoir of his service in Korea. Apocryphal or not, it indicates how most soldiers feel, and what they'd do in that situation.
The military is a reflection of the society it represents, and bad apples occur in every army. It's how such aberrations are dealt with that is important.
Saddam Hussein, facing the death penalty for his crimes, has asked for a firing squad as befits a soldier, and not hanging, which he feels is for criminals.
If that's the way Saddam thinks, I'd opt for hanging him -- the same with a soldier who'd rape a 14-year-old and then shoot her. A firing squad is too good for such a person.
Anything less would leave the impression rape and murder is little worse than a misdemeanour in the U.S. army.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
While i agree with the gist of the article, one thing bugs me...
Quote:
they reflect badly on the U.S, army, the American people, and all those who look to America as a representative of decency.
It does reflect badly on the U.S. military, military in general, and the american people in general, but who the smeg on this mudball planet looks to america as a representative of decency? Histroy shows we are anything BUT decent!
Goodbye Callisto & Skaši, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
It seems like that article was written with a lot of emotion, and not so much with facts. No one should just be shot on the spot. We are not judge, jury and executioners out here. Such is the reason for courts and laws. They will get what's comming to them.
The finger pointing is getting old though, IMO. USA is this, USA is that. Yadda yadda yadda. Yes, this stuff if bad and they should be punished accordingly, but it's not like the United States invented this stuff. Look at how long this conflict has gone on. Over 4 years now. Now see how many incodences of crimes there have been. Now look at other wars. Wars in the past. Wars between other countries. All wars have their attrcities. Should they happen, no. Do they EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD, sadly yes. You would think, from reading this article, that the Canadian Army was comprised of brigades of angles. It is just that the level of media involved in wars these days are so high that everything gets reported, and not as much gets swept under the rug. This sort of thing ran rampid in almost every conflict there ever was. At one time, it was considered the right of the conquoring force to treat themselves to the spoils of victory. AGAIN, should it happen, NO! Does it, yes. We are just under a giant microscope out here and are going to get the Western Devil label where ever we go. Just can win anymore these days.
Team GREEN
Suspension Division - "Handling Before Horsepower"
Making the turns since 1999
1998 EK Civic Hatch - Yes, it's a Honda.
RaiLS: Peter Worthington's article was an Editorial, so yes, there is enough idealism there... However, the incident he described is one incident, and yes, Canadians are not without blood on their hands (Somalia, Korea, and Cyprus come to mind). The point that's being made is that in war, attrocities happen, but dealing with them swiftly and solemnly is preferable to dragging it out.
It is true, definitely, that wars today are covered a LOT more than before, and there isn't as much censoring... but, if you want to do the right thing the right way, troops are going to have to deal with that. Dirty laundry on the part of an invading and occupying force (when there was a LOT of anti-war sentiment during the lead-up and invasion and well into the occupation) isn't something you want when you're ostensibly trying to do something GOOD for the people.
Besides, this isn't a "war," It's a liberation if the current party line is correct.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:
Besides, this isn't a "war," It's a liberation if the current party line is correct.
Can it really be called a "liberation" when you drive out an oppressive leader, replace him with an oppressive military until the new government can become strong enough to continue oppressing?
Oh, nevermind, that's what we did in Kuwait.
.
John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto
John Wilken wrote:GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:
Besides, this isn't a "war," It's a liberation if the current party line is correct.
Can it really be called a "liberation" when you drive out an oppressive leader, replace him with an oppressive military until the new government can become strong enough to continue oppressing?
Oh, nevermind, that's what we did in Kuwait.
.
I don't think the new government will last long enough to become oppressive. From what I've seen and read the last year or two, sectarian violence is going to consume Iraq. They need a single strong, but just leader... Saddam was strong, but not at all just (Goes without saying). I think they need another Hamid Karzai-type person (who isn't a great leader by any stretch, but I think he'll be the right person for Afghanistan, considering he's pushing for the oil pipeline from Kasakhstan).
Iraq is a delicate situation, and it's been made so by Dubya, inept planning, and war-mongering on the part of the New American Century authors in residence: Dick Cheney and Carl Rove.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
One of the soldiers who did this is from my town, Fresno. The local press has been running volumes about his life since the story broke. He was a good student, well-liked, and a family guy. His female friends said they NEVER felt threatened by him, even so much as treating him like "one of the girls", because he was so trusted and they felt safe around him. He had girlfriends and what not and was not known to be sexually preverted or lacking female contact.
But he has admitted to the crimes. The ONLY explanation from the evidence of who he was to who he has become has to be the stress of the war. Sounds like one-too-many weak souls were left together for too long in the wrong spot.
---
Quote:
But he has admitted to the crimes. The ONLY explanation from the evidence of who he was to who he has become has to be the stress of the war. Sounds like one-too-many weak souls were left together for too long in the wrong spot.
100% completely agree with you on that.
Team GREEN
Suspension Division - "Handling Before Horsepower"
Making the turns since 1999
1998 EK Civic Hatch - Yes, it's a Honda.
I tend to agree.
However, Combat/Patrol stress should be kept in check, as I've said before, by limiting tours of duty. I don't think it's weak soldiers, I think it's weak planning and eroding concern on the part of some soldiers that have been there too long for those they're supposed to be protecting. They're only human, doing a 2months on 1 Month off tour might help them cope, I'm sure there are a few duties in Saudi Arabia they can do.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
teh GAM wrote:I tend to agree.
However, Combat/Patrol stress should be kept in check, as I've said before, by limiting tours of duty. I don't think it's weak soldiers, I think it's weak planning and eroding concern on the part of some soldiers that have been there too long for those they're supposed to be protecting. They're only human, doing a 2months on 1 Month off tour might help them cope, I'm sure there are a few duties in Saudi Arabia they can do.
I agree with that 100% as well.
Team GREEN
Suspension Division - "Handling Before Horsepower"
Making the turns since 1999
1998 EK Civic Hatch - Yes, it's a Honda.
Yes! Tours should be at max 6 months. The year long deployments really bring down a person's morale. I mean C'mon , you are deployed every other year? We're not fighting a "war" right now. It's an occupation that's supposed to be a rebuilding. I agree with GAM. On the upper levels it's flawed.
I'm just adding 2 cents right now. There's been plenty of good things doen over there that haven't been reported in the news but the things the troops do sometimes are just downright rotten. I'm not trying to put a stereotype here but when I hear about the rape I KNOW it was an infantryman. I been around enough of them to know that there are some degenerates in the infantry. And in the right situation, like a war zone, having combat stress, and other factors that some of these guys would do some morally wrong stuff. It's just a bad situation.
If they did rape that girl they should be punished like anyone else. That's just wrong.
One of the major problems I've seen in a lot of militaries (and plaguing the American one at the moment) is that they'll take anyone willing to sign up. So the problem is that you end up with men and women who wouldn't have been able to hack it at McDonalds, or worse... gangbangers looking for training they can bring back to their streets. There's been a rash of gang tagging in Iraq. No one seems worried because it goes without saying that these guys fight awesomely. However, they're gonna come back home one day and that's a little worrisome.
The war against terror, should never have been fought with a conventional military. It's completely pointless. The money spent on invading Iraq should have been spent bribing foreign countries to allow special ops units to go in and kill terrorist cells in those countries where they hide. Right now what I'm seeing is this Vietnam era mentality where the top brass seem blissfully ignorant that there isn't an enemy army to fight. This is similar to what the French and British did in WW1 where they couldn't stop trying to run the war like the Napoleonic/Zulu campaigns and got their guys slaughtered.
As for soldiers committing atrocities. That happens in every war. Can't ask a man who'se never so much as been in a fistfight in his life to suddenly blow the heads off people and not have it affect him. Some people just can't deal with violence.
I really thought this was a problem of battle fatique but it seems the issue is not at all limited to soldiers in theatre.
Recuters are being bad as well.
Again, I'm sure this is not limited to the US forces, but the story comes from the US so of course they are the only ones mentioned.
Now it seems to me the problem may be more systemic than originally thought. It runs through the body of the forces, not just in the battlefield.
PAX
<BAD JOKE>
For some reason, this thread reminds me of the part in Blazing Saddles:
"Qualifications?"
"Rape, Murder, Arson, and Rape"
"You said rape twice"
"I like rape..."
For some reason, I see an exchance like that happening in a recruiting office now.
</bad joke>
And no, i do not believe that all of the military has rape on the brain...
Goodbye Callisto & Skaši, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Quote:
Now it seems to me the problem may be more systemic than originally thought. It runs through the body of the forces, not just in the battlefield.
You sir, are a @!#$ ass. Throw completely ignorant on top of that as well.
Quote:
Some cases of improper behavior involved romantic relationships, and sometimes those relationships were initiated by the women
They also quote nothing of the cases that were thrown out. People have been known to make cases in order to get money.
Either way, I am not going to waste my time writing a book to someone when it will fall upon deaf ears. I have read enough of your posts to know that you will only see something one way. Do not expect a reply from me.
Team GREEN
Suspension Division - "Handling Before Horsepower"
Making the turns since 1999
1998 EK Civic Hatch - Yes, it's a Honda.
Listen Rails, don't blow it out of proportion. That's a few hundred cases from a military of hundreds of thousands. My only point is that there is work to be done on all fronts. People can be nasty creatures, the military is not immune. In fact, let's face it, the military gets more than its share of wack-jobs because of the nature of the work. Some seek to destroy, some not-so-nice people get in. It's a fact in any military, not just yours.
Completely ignorant I'm not. Pretending that this kind of thing doesn't happen would be ignorant. Exposing it so that maybe something is done to improve the situation is not ignorance.
You obviously have not read enough of my posts, or you have me confused with someone else. I always try to see the whole picture if possible and not take a narrow view of anything. I'm one of the few people who said the US had to go into Iraq for example. Of course I also stated the real reason. To stablize US oil supply in order to benefit the economy and keep the industrial machine running. Any country must act on behalf of its citizens and secure the resources required to keep the country running. That is ample justification for the conflict. I just wish they'd stop sugar coating things and just tell the truth. Maybe then SUV sales would start to drop (if US citizens really do want to stop fighting around the world).
A higher standard of disipline is expected from the military (of any country) that's why these stories are news. You had better get used to the idea. Plus, smut sells.
PAX
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