If your a Christian and there is a God and a Heaven, your saved, if there isn't, nothing happens.
If your an atheist and there is a God in Heaven, you face damnation, if there isn't, nothing happens.
I'd bet against atheism any day, but I have nothing against anyone, I just had to throw my point in.
Quote:
Most of those cases going to the supreme court are the religious groups defending themselves. (trying to force private Christian schools to hire open homosexual teachers, even though it is blatantly against their beliefs as a religious institution. and stuff like muslim kids suing the school board to let them wear their religious attire) etc)
Sure you'll always find the lawsuit where someone is trying to sue to get prayer back in public schools and what not.
But those are in the minority.
ANd bubba, I love breaking it to you, but as long as the school allows any extra curricular group to circulate literature, fliers, invitations to the chess meet etc, they will have to allow the Bible club to do the same thing. If they allow the 4-H club to walk around trying to convert you to believing in the corn god, then the Jehovah's witnesses have the right to hand you a flier. Get over it, move to N. Korea, or hope that some activist judge tries to create a new law in his/her ruling.
I hate to break it to you... but those weren't the cases I was talking about. However since you brought those up, I cant help but to say why do you think they went to court for? One religious perspective versing another, could that be it? Doesn't that qualify as one religion pushing its belief onto another... Yea I think so. The ones I am talking about are are one religious group v another(refer to note 1).... Sacrificial chickens deal with part of the case, and to give you another clue it happened in Florida. Another one its deals with handling poisonous snakes. Or another dont believe it has hit the courts yet, Gay marriage.... Abortion (this i know has many times)... list goes on. Good try though...
As far as school practices concern, those are by choice, do I believe they are wrong. Yes I do, there is supposed to be a separation of church and State(refer to note 2). Public schools being run by the state it should not have anything concerning religion, if you want to practice your religion go to a catholic school or whatever religious school you so happen to believe in. The point of school is to become educated, not to discuss your religion or beliefs.
I have yet to see your argument concerning people pushing religions onto others. In fact I mostly see you as agreeing with most of what I said.. Thanks for proving my point
(Note 1: as in "another" as we know many of the political offices are run by catholic, Christian or the predominate religion in that area)
(Note 2: This can never happen due to people using there beliefs in office so in term that amendment means NADA)
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Bad Ace Design wrote:If your a Christian and there is a God and a Heaven, your saved, if there isn't, nothing happens.
If your an atheist and there is a God in Heaven, you face damnation, if there isn't, nothing happens.
I'd bet against atheism any day, but I have nothing against anyone, I just had to throw my point in.
Pascal's Wager is the biggest crock of sh-t out there. You do realize that if Atheists and Christians are wrong, and Muslims are the correct ones, we're both screwed, right? Atheism is not the disbelief of the Christian god, it's the disbelief on any higher power, in an omnipresent being that controls it's people.
I have the same morals of any Christian. To put it in words you'd understand, I believe in the Ten Commandments, sans Keeping the Sabbath Holy and having No Other Gods before the big cheese. I care for social causes, it makes me so sad to see homeless people, to see strays, to know that people are dying in other countries due to disease and famine.
I don't understand why people think Atheists are angry, depressed people that are out to "corrupt" the masses. The only hate I've come across has been from my Christian friends. If Christians are supposed to be caring people, why would I be told, "It's okay, we can still be friends because I know that one day, you'll listen to me, and I can save you from hell."
Your fight begins tonight.
Alexis wrote:
I don't understand why people think Atheists are angry, depressed people that are out to "corrupt" the masses. The only hate I've come across has been from my Christian friends.
Atheists are a vocal minority on the internet. I can't even begin to count how many threads on nerd sites like slashdot.org or digg.com I've read where people are outright making fun of Christians for their religion, openly questioning their intelligence, and what not. Bill Maher does it on his HBO show weekly. George Carlin does it in several routines. And guys like Richard Dawkins get a lot of press for no other reason than being an athiest.
I'm not saying you having experienced what you say you have. I believe you. But *I* am saying that it goes both ways, totally. No two ways about it.
Alexis wrote:
If Christians are supposed to be caring people, why would I be told, "It's okay, we can still be friends because I know that one day, you'll listen to me, and I can save you from hell."
Cause that's what they are taught. They are taught to save the ones they love and care for along with everyone else. So yes, they ARE caring for you. Don't get so angry about it. Go to a church and talk to a pastor and you'll see the reasoning behind it. No need to get all angry.
---
Rest assured, alexis, that assuming it's a bipolar system of *just* Heaven and Hell, that as the JBO-proclaimed "Satan Made Flesh" that many of those extreme-hate Christians will have to spend eternity felching the unwashed corpse of Benny Hinn. Meanwhile, since you're on my good side I might consider lending you the keys to the company Porche.
Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
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The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Alexis wrote:Bad Ace Design wrote:If your a Christian and there is a God and a Heaven, your saved, if there isn't, nothing happens.
If your an atheist and there is a God in Heaven, you face damnation, if there isn't, nothing happens.
I'd bet against atheism any day, but I have nothing against anyone, I just had to throw my point in.
Pascal's Wager is the biggest crock of sh-t out there. You do realize that if Atheists and Christians are wrong, and Muslims are the correct ones, we're both screwed, right? Atheism is not the disbelief of the Christian god, it's the disbelief on any higher power, in an omnipresent being that controls it's people.
I have the same morals of any Christian. To put it in words you'd understand, I believe in the Ten Commandments, sans Keeping the Sabbath Holy and having No Other Gods before the big cheese. I care for social causes, it makes me so sad to see homeless people, to see strays, to know that people are dying in other countries due to disease and famine.
Agreed and agreed.
I believe our purpose in life is to better the whole, the same as every other living organism, it's about advancing the species.
I do not believe in an afterlife. If you want to live forever, do something important to make your mark on the world (I'd suggest positive since I'd rather be MLK than Hitler). I believe that if there is some form of "heaven", helping others should probably qualify you. Everybody 'sins' (even Catholic priests lol), and if you think telling some old man in a robe about it makes everything fine, good for you. If you think there's a chance you may be born again as a penguin, I hope you're right, because how cool would that be?
I also believe there is some higher power (may it be gravity, god, or a large bug-eyed creature constantly chanting "Mary had a little lamb" around a bonfire of anti-matter. But I don't believe it speaks to us, and I don't believe it has any effect on our daily lives.
But I ask everyone this, whether it all started with a supreme being, or a tiny atom, where did
that come from?
fortune cookie say: better a delay than a disaster
OHV notec wrote:But I ask everyone this, whether it all started with a supreme being, or a tiny atom, where did that come from?
I would suppose that we're not smart enough to know that for sure yet. I think that time and the universe is cyclical (ie, we've had a big boom, we'll have a big crunch sometime (not in my lifetime), but asking a human now about the point of origin is like asking an ant what it'd be like on antarctica.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
^^^if there is an origin point.
Some people cannot comprehend what is always was and always will be, and yesterday will someday be tomorrow. In a universe defined as infinite-dimensions curved in the infinite+1 dimension (just using the infinite+1 to differentiate between inifinite and a single step beyond because saying inofinite curved in the infinite sounds like the same thing, which it's not
), then there can really be no origin or terminus--except from a relative perspective--not an absolute.
Given that, The concept of God is reduced to a "yes and no." or a "coould be", not a "yes" and a "no".
OHV: to explain that even simpler--where did god or the Atom come from? Whatever was before it. Where did that come from? Whatever was before it--ad infinitum, sometime reaching "what was before that?" "God" or "The Atom"
Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
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The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
We just haven't evolved enough to understand the universe in it's entirety. Think about a never ending void, goes on forever in all directions. Honestly, it sometimes makes my head hurt.
Your fight begins tonight.
God told me he would come to my birthday party, he didnt, so I stoped believing in him.
Most men i know stop believing in God the days their penises stop growing.
Alexis: close...very close. Just imagine that once you reach "forever", you're right back where you started
.
Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
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The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Bubba
Separation of church and state does not apply to the restriction of free speech, which is what you seem to be sniffing over. The school itself CANNOT sponsor a Bible club. They must, however, allow it to exist on school propert, just like they have to allow other non-profit extracurricular groups to exist and operate. (BUT only if they allow other groups to operate. If the school bans all extra-curricular groups, the the Bible club would fall into that category) You don't like it and thats too bad. The US Supreme court has already ruled in favor of the Bible clubs.
Now, to help you out....if a bible clubber persists in trying to convert you, after you have told them to get lost, go ahead and turn them in to the school principal. Chances are, he's looking for an excuse to get rid of them anyway. Same thing for those people that come to your door. Although there is not a national "do-not-knock" list, if you call that particular church/ organization and (without screaming) tell them you are not interested and to please make their people aware that your house is off limits, then almost always, they'll stay away.
Finally, I fail to see what points I proved for you.
I originally just wanted to see why some people are atheists. The thread has been informative, but it is unfortunate that both sides resorted to name-calling and belittling each others opinions and beliefs.
I have my reasons why I think people become atheists, and while they may not apply to everyone on this site, they probably are true for a lot of people. Most are taught atheism, just as most religious people are taught their beliefs too.
.
“Poor Al Gore. Global warming completely debunked via the very Internet you invented. Oh, oh, the irony!” -Jon Stewart
ScottaWhite wrote:Bubba
Separation of church and state does not apply to the restriction of free speech, which is what you seem to be sniffing over. The school itself CANNOT sponsor a Bible club. They must, however, allow it to exist on school propert, just like they have to allow other non-profit extracurricular groups to exist and operate. (BUT only if they allow other groups to operate. If the school bans all extra-curricular groups, the the Bible club would fall into that category) You don't like it and thats too bad. The US Supreme court has already ruled in favor of the Bible clubs.
Now, to help you out....if a bible clubber persists in trying to convert you, after you have told them to get lost, go ahead and turn them in to the school principal. Chances are, he's looking for an excuse to get rid of them anyway. Same thing for those people that come to your door. Although there is not a national "do-not-knock" list, if you call that particular church/ organization and (without screaming) tell them you are not interested and to please make their people aware that your house is off limits, then almost always, they'll stay away.
Finally, I fail to see what points I proved for you.
I originally just wanted to see why some people are atheists. The thread has been informative, but it is unfortunate that both sides resorted to name-calling and belittling each others opinions and beliefs.
I have my reasons why I think people become atheists, and while they may not apply to everyone on this site, they probably are true for a lot of people. Most are taught atheism, just as most religious people are taught their beliefs too.
.
I'm going to reiterate my point once more. Just because you think you know why atheists are atheists, doesn't mean it applies to "most people." I will give you that a small minority fall under the reasons you listed earlier, but that's not a majority or even a decent segment. I know you think you understand, but frankly you haven't got a clue. It's absurdly frustrating that you can read through this thread and somehow come to the conclusion that you were right all along about how we become atheists. I'm pretty sure most, if not at all of us, have shown that you're actually completely off base. Yet you somehow conclude that you may be wrong about those of us on this board, but you must be right about all the other atheists. Come on. Step out of your naive little shell and realize you haven't got us all figured out. We're not trendy little damaged goods that curse the existence of a god.
Also, it's quite rare that atheists are taught atheism in a similar sense to how christians are taught christianity; at least in my experience. Most christians are taught their religion by their parents and/or a church. I know quite a few atheists personally, and have come in contact with many others, and I can honestly say that I don't know any of them who have atheist parents. My mother is a christian. She goes to church every week. My father, only in recent years, has shifted to a more agnostic point of view, but was a christian for almost his entire life. I don't have a single atheist family member. No one "taught" me atheism. I always felt a disconnect with religion and questioned its importance and logistics from a very early age. As I grew up I began reading more and finally being able to classify what it is I felt; I didn't believe in god or religion. And don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are atheists families who push atheism upon their children and teach them there is no god and such things. But that doesn't make it the norm. And I sure as hell will never do it to my children should I ever have them. True atheists know you have to decide for yourself and come to your own conclusions. At least the ones I respect do.
Anyway, you really need to open your eyes a little and not just blindly come to conclusions without any thought, or by just dismissing what we say even though you asked for this discussion.
Tristan wrote:ScottaWhite wrote:Bubba
Separation of church and state does not apply to the restriction of free speech, which is what you seem to be sniffing over. The school itself CANNOT sponsor a Bible club. They must, however, allow it to exist on school propert, just like they have to allow other non-profit extracurricular groups to exist and operate. (BUT only if they allow other groups to operate. If the school bans all extra-curricular groups, the the Bible club would fall into that category) You don't like it and thats too bad. The US Supreme court has already ruled in favor of the Bible clubs.
Now, to help you out....if a bible clubber persists in trying to convert you, after you have told them to get lost, go ahead and turn them in to the school principal. Chances are, he's looking for an excuse to get rid of them anyway. Same thing for those people that come to your door. Although there is not a national "do-not-knock" list, if you call that particular church/ organization and (without screaming) tell them you are not interested and to please make their people aware that your house is off limits, then almost always, they'll stay away.
Finally, I fail to see what points I proved for you.
I originally just wanted to see why some people are atheists. The thread has been informative, but it is unfortunate that both sides resorted to name-calling and belittling each others opinions and beliefs.
I have my reasons why I think people become atheists, and while they may not apply to everyone on this site, they probably are true for a lot of people. Most are taught atheism, just as most religious people are taught their beliefs too.
.
I'm going to reiterate my point once more. Just because you think you know why atheists are atheists, doesn't mean it applies to "most people." I will give you that a small minority fall under the reasons you listed earlier, but that's not a majority or even a decent segment. I know you think you understand, but frankly you haven't got a clue. It's absurdly frustrating that you can read through this thread and somehow come to the conclusion that you were right all along about how we become atheists. I'm pretty sure most, if not at all of us, have shown that you're actually completely off base. Yet you somehow conclude that you may be wrong about those of us on this board, but you must be right about all the other atheists. Come on. Step out of your naive little shell and realize you haven't got us all figured out. We're not trendy little damaged goods that curse the existence of a god.
Also, it's quite rare that atheists are taught atheism in a similar sense to how christians are taught christianity; at least in my experience. Most christians are taught their religion by their parents and/or a church. I know quite a few atheists personally, and have come in contact with many others, and I can honestly say that I don't know any of them who have atheist parents. My mother is a christian. She goes to church every week. My father, only in recent years, has shifted to a more agnostic point of view, but was a christian for almost his entire life. I don't have a single atheist family member. No one "taught" me atheism. I always felt a disconnect with religion and questioned its importance and logistics from a very early age. As I grew up I began reading more and finally being able to classify what it is I felt; I didn't believe in god or religion. And don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are atheists families who push atheism upon their children and teach them there is no god and such things. But that doesn't make it the norm. And I sure as hell will never do it to my children should I ever have them. True atheists know you have to decide for yourself and come to your own conclusions. At least the ones I respect do.
Anyway, you really need to open your eyes a little and not just blindly come to conclusions without any thought, or by just dismissing what we say even though you asked for this discussion.
Nicely put Tristan, I was never taught about atheism and same as you I never truly believed in the church or "God" or religion in that matter. Both of my parents are catholic so I was raised catholic till I was about in the 3rd grade, I started questioning what is religion a little before that but that is when I stopped believing in it all together. Why believe in something that has so many variations its sickening. I looked into various religions to gain knowledge and further more understand the human psyche. And I came to the conclusion that I should live my life how I see fit..
Scotta....Again Whats the primary religion in the Politics today? Your tossing me court cases and you have yet to realize, That the judges all pretty much share the same RELIGION.... Of course if its a predominate religion and the judges believe in prayer and bible study, chances are they're gonna win the court case. Unless it affects the party who put them in there in the first place... As Fair as belittling someones beliefs Im going by what I've seen and what pushes me away from religious practices here.
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(slaps own head" Sorry guys, I forgot the folks here either A) reached a higher plane of understanding and came into the realization of no-god on their own or B) Took the time to research the various religions with their various details and then arrived at a higher plan of understanding that there is no-god.
So if you believe it was religious Supreme Court Justices that rule in favor of churches, bible clubs, religious views, etc, then how would you explain the Scopes case, Roe V. Wade, or banning prayer from schools? If what you said is true, then the majority of the Justices were atheists, muslims, or some flavor of nature-worship. Well, I guess accusing the Justices of religious activism doesn't apply to those cases, but everything else is a religious conspiracy. (so three you have some court cases that "you" won)
And it doesn't have to be mom and dad ( although pigeon-holing a family limit to just a two-parent, opposite sex relationship is a religious institution itself, and therefore wrong as it pushes that groups beliefs on me) who teach their children. Many times it is the work of smug, humanistic teachers and professors who delight in corrupting the minds of their students with their religion of atheism. Atheism appeals to mans' pride, intellect and self-importance.
Not that I'm talking about Bubba, Tristan, or the other members of the Church of No-God but Me, because that would be generalizing, which is more evil than eating babies.
.
“Poor Al Gore. Global warming completely debunked via the very Internet you invented. Oh, oh, the irony!” -Jon Stewart
Most of us are atheists when it comes to believing in things like Thor, Zeus, Odin, Easter Bunny, Some of us just take it one god further than the others.
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now i know scott is out there and speaks things sometimes a bit to quickly but you guys are saying " well im an atheist and i didnt become one because of your(scotts) three reasons and a few of my friends didnt become an atheist this way so your way off and completly wrong scott." your kinda doing the same thing he is. because he knows of several people who went about the atheist deal his way your calling him wrong because you and your friends you know became atheists a diffrent way. honestly with out doing a major poll of the atheist population you both just guessing that your way is the majority and the opposing view is the minority.
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Live and let live, but let this thread die. No one's going to change anyone's views.
Your fight begins tonight.
sndsgood wrote:now i know scott is out there and speaks things sometimes a bit to quickly but you guys are saying " well im an atheist and i didnt become one because of your(scotts) three reasons and a few of my friends didnt become an atheist this way so your way off and completly wrong scott." your kinda doing the same thing he is. because he knows of several people who went about the atheist deal his way your calling him wrong because you and your friends you know became atheists a diffrent way. honestly with out doing a major poll of the atheist population you both just guessing that your way is the majority and the opposing view is the minority.
I'm only going to say this. I'm not guessing. Read a book on atheism. Every single author will tell you that those are the reasons Christians
think we become atheists. And every single author will tell you you are dead wrong. It's just a misconception that religious people usually have. Like I said, I'm not saying people don't find atheism the way Scott listed, but it's not any form of a majority. Christians often like to think that something TRAGIC must have happened in our lives to deny the existence of god. How else could we come to such a flawed and horrific decision?
Tristan wrote:sndsgood wrote:now i know scott is out there and speaks things sometimes a bit to quickly but you guys are saying " well im an atheist and i didnt become one because of your(scotts) three reasons and a few of my friends didnt become an atheist this way so your way off and completly wrong scott." your kinda doing the same thing he is. because he knows of several people who went about the atheist deal his way your calling him wrong because you and your friends you know became atheists a diffrent way. honestly with out doing a major poll of the atheist population you both just guessing that your way is the majority and the opposing view is the minority.
I'm only going to say this. I'm not guessing. Read a book on atheism. Every single author will tell you that those are the reasons Christians think we become atheists. And every single author will tell you you are dead wrong. It's just a misconception that religious people usually have. Like I said, I'm not saying people don't find atheism the way Scott listed, but it's not any form of a majority. Christians often like to think that something TRAGIC must have happened in our lives to deny the existence of god. How else could we come to such a flawed and horrific decision?
what do the catholics think?
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sndsgood wrote:Tristan wrote:sndsgood wrote:now i know scott is out there and speaks things sometimes a bit to quickly but you guys are saying " well im an atheist and i didnt become one because of your(scotts) three reasons and a few of my friends didnt become an atheist this way so your way off and completly wrong scott." your kinda doing the same thing he is. because he knows of several people who went about the atheist deal his way your calling him wrong because you and your friends you know became atheists a diffrent way. honestly with out doing a major poll of the atheist population you both just guessing that your way is the majority and the opposing view is the minority.
I'm only going to say this. I'm not guessing. Read a book on atheism. Every single author will tell you that those are the reasons Christians think we become atheists. And every single author will tell you you are dead wrong. It's just a misconception that religious people usually have. Like I said, I'm not saying people don't find atheism the way Scott listed, but it's not any form of a majority. Christians often like to think that something TRAGIC must have happened in our lives to deny the existence of god. How else could we come to such a flawed and horrific decision?
what do the catholics think?
They don't. Some people are taught to think; some are taught to believe. Catholics are taught to believe.
^^^^^
EVERYONE possesses a mind and can think for themselves. I was raised Lutheran for 18 years, but changed my views on my own, no persuasion. It's the same for people that start out as nonbelievers and then become those of a faith based religion. Don't be ignorant and say something outlandish like that.
Your fight begins tonight.
Let's not forget that is in very trendy in some social circles to be atheist. C'mon, who wants to be the weirdo in his philosophy class that actually believes in God? Nah, much easier to give the collective world the proverbial middle finger and then go drink a beer with your fellow members of the unorganized religion of atheism. After all, who wants to contemplate your brother or grandma burning in hell....No way Jose! If I cover my eyes and plug my ears and hum a Jimmy Buffet song, then it isn't real.
.
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“Poor Al Gore. Global warming completely debunked via the very Internet you invented. Oh, oh, the irony!” -Jon Stewart
You're not very intelligent, are you? Atheism is not a religion. What have atheists ever done to you to make you dislike us so much? Christianity can be just as "trendy" as nontheism. Do you seriously think we're all depressed, trendy, alcoholics, with a vendetta against the world? You have a lot of growing up to do.
BTW, Jimmy Buffet sucks.
Your fight begins tonight.
Alexis,
1) It is a religion in my opinion, because it shares some close similarities:
a. Atheists have faith.....that there is no God....without proof there is no God.
b. They believe in a "higher power" aka. themselves
c/ They seek non-profit status for their groups that choose to organize
d. They will adamantly defend their position with the same fervor as a so-called religious person.
2.) You really read a lot into my last post.
a. Christianity is mostly trendy in America today if you are running for public office.
b. Having a beer with your fellow atheists does not make you or anyone else an alcoholic.
c. No vendetta against the world, but typically cynical. (a commonly shared trait with many people)
d. No atheists have ever done anything to me personally. I don't dislike them at all, although I disagree with their religion.
e. The post you are complaining about was a blend of sarcasm with a smattering of truth as I see it.
.
“Poor Al Gore. Global warming completely debunked via the very Internet you invented. Oh, oh, the irony!” -Jon Stewart
