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Re: punishment for animal cruelty? RE: marine & the puppy vid
Friday, March 07, 2008 10:03 AM on j-body.org
GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:
sndsgood wrote:
Hahahaha wrote:That hunk of beef you're eating didn't know what hit it. It was just standing there, then BAM, dead. No clue.

It certainly was not dangled over a cliff for a while and scared silly before it was killed.... That would make the meat tough.

The soldier should be discharged and then tried in civilian court for animal cruelty. The video should remian public and his identity not protected. The military should have no place for a soldier willing to kill the innocent. Civi courts likely have much tougher laws regarding cruelty towards animals.

Yes, I eat meat. I was raised on a beef farm. Domestic aniomal slaughter for food production is not at all comparible to tossing a dog off a cliff. Not even close.

PAX


so you have seen the slaughter houses where cows are lined up one by one and walkedthru a pen in a line. im sure the cows in back didnt see everyone in front of them get hit by the large hamer in the head, and im sure when the cows didnt die im sure they didnt see the guy walk up and hit the cow with a hammer or slit his throat. im sure they dont smell the blood and see the cows in front of them being gutted. sorry but your responce doesnt wash dead is dead wether its thrown off a cliff or hit with a hammer.

the reason why for most people they dont connect the two is because rover is their best friend and pet that they live with day in and day out. and that steak was just some cow out on some farm somewhere that they didnt see or know.

Getting hit in the head by a hammer? Maybe in the early 80's, now? No slaughter house I've seen has used that for human consumption grade meat, there's a thing called mad-cow, and this method tends to propagate it.

The other thing, most of the time, there's more than one slough (pronounced sloo, you oughtta get the terminology right), and they don't usually see/hear what the other animals are going through because:
- it will panic them, and good luck trying to settle 300-400 head of beef cattle that are spooked.
- Animals tend to kick when the initial punctures are made (usually you hit the carotid and jugular veins on the underside of the neck, and get the hell out of the way because if they're not tazed, they figure out that they're going to die.. and respond accordingly).


The difference between what these marines did (supposedly) and slaughter of Cattle: These marines did this because they were malicious and cruel and wanted to inflict pain on an animal that couldn't defend itself if it had to, killing cattle is what happens when life has to feed on life.

I don't wish harm on these marines, but they deserve punishment even if the video is a hoax, the same reasons apply.





well i can't honestly say ive been to a slaughter house in the last 10 years or so but they used to have like a pneumatic type deal that would nock them in the head killing them. this was back around 98, 99. We as humans dont HAVE to feed of animals. we can live on plants. plenty of vegans have proven that. we CHOOSE to eat meat. my post wasn't saying that what the marines did wasnt cruel. but honestly. is there a diffrence between being a dead dog or being a dead cow that is served at your favorite resteraunt? dead is dead. im sure the cow wouldn't feel better being killed just because he new he was going to be cut up and served to the logans down the block.


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Re: punishment for animal cruelty? RE: marine & the puppy vid
Friday, March 07, 2008 10:09 AM on j-body.org
Sorry Harrington, i was thinking that you were trying to argue that Animals have souls. While i think this is a plausibility, i thnk it's intrinsicly more difficuult to prove that humans have a soul as opposed to the fact that animals don't. It's easy to prove that animals have a lot of human qualities such as intelligence and whatnot (hell, Elephants mourn the loss of relatives), but to prove that humans have a soul? That means you have to bring religion into it--good luck proving religion beyond a shadow of a doubt.

My take. If this is false, the *maybe* a dishonrable discharge. If nothing else a couple of hundred demerits.

If this is real, toss the bastard off of the cluff.

Killing another animal for food is one thing. Torture? That is something almost exclusive to humanity. Besides, most animals kill for food, for defense, or if their territory is being viloated.


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Re: punishment for animal cruelty? RE: marine & the puppy vid
Friday, March 07, 2008 2:59 PM on j-body.org
sndsgood wrote:well i can't honestly say ive been to a slaughter house in the last 10 years or so but they used to have like a pneumatic type deal that would nock them in the head killing them. this was back around 98, 99. We as humans dont HAVE to feed of animals. we can live on plants. plenty of vegans have proven that. we CHOOSE to eat meat. my post wasn't saying that what the marines did wasnt cruel. but honestly. is there a diffrence between being a dead dog or being a dead cow that is served at your favorite resteraunt? dead is dead. im sure the cow wouldn't feel better being killed just because he new he was going to be cut up and served to the logans down the block.

The old "knockers" were used on grade C meat that was going to be rendered.

And if you want to argue semantics, replace the puppy or cattle with one of your family members... dead IS dead, right?

I say again, life feeds on life. Suffer the little carrots And even vegans need vitamin B12, which you can only get from red meat.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.


Re: punishment for animal cruelty? RE: marine & the puppy vid
Friday, March 07, 2008 6:45 PM on j-body.org
GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:
sndsgood wrote:well i can't honestly say ive been to a slaughter house in the last 10 years or so but they used to have like a pneumatic type deal that would nock them in the head killing them. this was back around 98, 99. We as humans dont HAVE to feed of animals. we can live on plants. plenty of vegans have proven that. we CHOOSE to eat meat. my post wasn't saying that what the marines did wasnt cruel. but honestly. is there a diffrence between being a dead dog or being a dead cow that is served at your favorite resteraunt? dead is dead. im sure the cow wouldn't feel better being killed just because he new he was going to be cut up and served to the logans down the block.

The old "knockers" were used on grade C meat that was going to be rendered.

And if you want to argue semantics, replace the puppy or cattle with one of your family members... dead IS dead, right?

I say again, life feeds on life. Suffer the little carrots And even vegans need vitamin B12, which you can only get from red meat.




ehhh i wouldnt go to a resteraunt serving one of my relatives. interesting to know about the B12 though. kinda wanna look into that now and bring it up if i find a vegan. me i like steak to much to ever decide to give up meat .


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Re: punishment for animal cruelty? RE: marine & the puppy vid
Friday, March 07, 2008 6:58 PM on j-body.org
ScottaWhite wrote:HAHAHAHA, you said "Domestic aniomal slaughter for food production is not at all comparible to tossing a dog off a cliff. Not even close."

So, there isn't the prolonged fear and senseless killing, that's true. However, I've been on a chicken farm, and those birds are crammed in on top of each other, claws disemboweling each other, sometimes stuffed that way into shipping containers. And to kill them quicker, well, they pick up the live chicken, ram a hook through its feet, and attach the hook to a conveyer belt. The best carries to screaming chicken down then line, where its throat is slit....and while still alive sometimes, plunged head first into a vat of boiling water to peel the skin and feather off.


I had a difficult time eating chicken nuggets after reading this disturbing post.
I kept thinking about "those birds" and how they get killed... I find it very very disturbing.
My mom used to have a rooster as a pet, and he was meaner than $hit because he liked to hump people's shoes.


Re: punishment for animal cruelty? RE: marine & the puppy vid
Friday, March 07, 2008 7:34 PM on j-body.org
someone needs to send the youtube link to their local news station


teh pup will have his vengence lol



Re: punishment for animal cruelty? RE: marine & the puppy vid
Saturday, March 08, 2008 12:12 AM on j-body.org
The fact that I mentioned the word "soul" just sent certain people into a pissing frenzy. How dare I offend their cerebral religion of atheism or whatever, by mentioning THAT word. Get over yourselves (you know who you are, because you are the one's getting ready to type something stupid again). Your profound dislike for me is so transparent that it is funny. Oh, I don't mind too much...I just laugh at how you jump on anything I say and point out how stupid it is.

Prove it? Well, I guess I can't since you can't have a sensory relationship with it, then I guess it doesn't exist.

Now, please prove why it was wrong to kill the puppy, without pushing your moral values on me, or telling me that my values are wrong, after all, this is the amoral JBO. where every man does that which is right in his own eyes.

.

.


“Poor Al Gore. Global warming completely debunked via the very Internet you invented. Oh, oh, the irony!” -Jon Stewart
Re: punishment for animal cruelty? RE: marine & the puppy vid
Saturday, March 08, 2008 10:28 AM on j-body.org
ScottaWhite wrote:The fact that I mentioned the word "soul" just sent certain people into a pissing frenzy. How dare I offend their cerebral religion of atheism or whatever, by mentioning THAT word. Get over yourselves (you know who you are, because you are the one's getting ready to type something stupid again). Your profound dislike for me is so transparent that it is funny. Oh, I don't mind too much...I just laugh at how you jump on anything I say and point out how stupid it is.


Get over YOURSELF. It has nothing to do with the word or religion, or anything to do with anybodies dislike of you, it has to do with the fact that you're basing your opinion on a supposed fact you can't prove. It's not as if this opinion were something as trivial as "The poofy cheetos are better than the crunchy ones", (they aren't by the way, crunchy ones win easy) it has to do with you saying that one living being has more value and rights than another, simply because it has a soul? That's a weak argument and you know it.


ScottaWhite wrote:Now, please prove why it was wrong to kill the puppy, without pushing your moral values on me, or telling me that my values are wrong, after all, this is the amoral JBO. where every man does that which is right in his own eyes.


Morally, it's wrong to take another beings life.

The only thing that makes it more socially acceptable is if the guy had a reason. He didn't. Therefore his act was unacceptable, both socially, and morally.

Oh, and if you want to play the whole "We have souls, I believe in an afterlife, God and all that" card. What about the fact that God should be the one to take and give lives, and not humans? Oh wait, that only matters with humans, because we're better than every other animal on the planet.

At the very least, you must admit that killing a defenseless being for no reason at all, not defense, not sustenance, and not even superstitious religious beliefs, is wrong.




Edited 2 time(s). Last edited Saturday, March 08, 2008 10:30 AM


Re: punishment for animal cruelty? RE: marine & the puppy vid
Saturday, March 08, 2008 11:47 AM on j-body.org
sndsgood wrote:ehhh i wouldnt go to a resteraunt serving one of my relatives. interesting to know about the B12 though. kinda wanna look into that now and bring it up if i find a vegan. me i like steak to much to ever decide to give up meat .

Yeah, humans produce B12, but it usually needs to be supplemented in most people that don't eat red meats... It's the reason a lot of life-long vegans get willowy and almost gaunt even if they're eating a lot of protein laden nuts and such.

And if a restaurant was serving my relatives, I'd have to ask if they were at least free-range, and if they minded terribly cooking it medium rare (human meat is supposed to be pretty tough when cooked medium... not that I know first hand, I'm taking notes from Jeffrey Dahmer here).

I've done the Vegitarian thing but I was also eating cheese and fish/poultry occasionally, and once I hit my goal weight I treated myself to a 28 oz T-bone steak cooked rare.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.


Re: punishment for animal cruelty? RE: marine & the puppy vid
Sunday, March 09, 2008 3:07 PM on j-body.org
Re: punishment for animal cruelty? RE: marine & the puppy vid
Monday, March 10, 2008 11:29 AM on j-body.org
If we go into some extreme theory, Scott, you can't really prove anyone except yourself has a soul (and then only p[roving it to one's self)--it being a noumenon. You can only hypothosize on other people's souls, or animals' souls...if they exist, or if people's exist for that mater. Or is a soul just a state of cognition when it's reached a certain level? and that eing the case, wouldn't that make some animals definitly having a soul, but some human's not?

Or, if you bring religion, specifical anything monotheistic, you have to prove that religion is correct in the absolute--which you can't prove it correct or incorrect.

Now, we can always fall back on the good old "my species is superior", but again, what was the reasonig for killing said puppy?

Not because the puppy was the spawn of a competing male (and human look down on killing your new g/f's or wife's existing kids because you didn't father them).
Not because the puppy was a competitor for food
Not because the puppy was a threat.
Not because the puppy was food.
Not because the puppy was a parasite (and if it was, that blows all pro-life arguments to ban abortion out of the water).

That exhausts about every single way I could think of that reflects why nature kills. The only other reason I could think of is over malice--basically, a psychological issue. In other words: Something isn't right with that guy.


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Re: punishment for animal cruelty? RE: marine & the puppy vid
Tuesday, March 11, 2008 11:28 AM on j-body.org
And that is the reason for discharge. He cannot be trusted to do the right ting, and he cannot be trusted with a weapon.

Those who say domestic animal slaghter is similar are wrped. The chicken farm example was a bad one as any farms like that are eventually found and shut down. That is certainly not the norm in animal production.

It's easy. Sick animals are not profitable, overcrowding leads to illness and death, cutting into profit.

If we did not kill and eat domestic animals, THEY WOULD NOT EXIST. If they were not commecially viable, they'd be extinct. SO, animal lovers out there.. SOme cattle, pigs, chicken etc that can live in relative safety then be slaughtered for food or none, extinction.

Then there are all the biological factors. Did you know that as primates we would not have evolvedour big brains without animal protein? Did you know that Chimps (smartest Ape aside from Humans (debatable)) eat meat on occasion? Did you know that meat is why they have more brain developement than other apes?

We may very well eat too much meat, but none is also bad. Everything in moderation makes your body happy.

PAX


PS: This is what part of the alphabet would look like if Q and R were eliminated
- Mitch Hedberg (RIP)
Re: punishment for animal cruelty? RE: marine & the puppy vid
Tuesday, March 11, 2008 5:13 PM on j-body.org
Animals don't have souls.

I have never seen a wild thing feel sorry for itself. A sparrow will drop frozen from a winter bough before even once considering it's own pity.

That is what separates us from the animals. We have sorrow, love, regret. Dogs don't think twice if they have to eat their own young. A dog has never mourned a dead pup. A father dog does not cry when his pups leave, nor do the pups cry when the father leaves.

A dog has never written Romeo and Juliet, or War and Peace. A dog has never worshiped, so how can you say they have a soul? If dogs had a religion, they would have war as well.

killing a dog is no different than squashing an insect.

The question; children, is why is it everyone gets up in arms about a marine killing a puppy, while remaining apathetic about the fact that he has also killed men?




Re: punishment for animal cruelty? RE: marine & the puppy vid
Tuesday, March 11, 2008 7:58 PM on j-body.org
I just wanted to say that my brother who is in air force tech school was told during a meeting that the video is real.



FORGET GIRLS GONE WILD WE HAVE GOVERNMENT SPENDING GONE WILD!

Re: punishment for animal cruelty? RE: marine & the puppy vid
Wednesday, March 12, 2008 7:04 AM on j-body.org
KevinP (Stabby McShankyou) wrote:
killing a dog is no different than squashing an insect.

The question; children, is why is it everyone gets up in arms about a marine killing a puppy, while remaining apathetic about the fact that he has also killed men?

thank you! its about time someone hit it on the head. both points are what i wanted to hear.

killing a dog is no different than killing any other animal. the only difference in this case was that he made the animal suffer instead of it being quick. thats the only part that he should be punished for.

killing a puppy is demonized whereas killing a person is ok in the same people's eyes? in the thread in OT people were wishing death or torture on this guy. their preferred punishment did not fit the marine's crime, IMHO, and i wanted to give people a chance to say WHY they felt he should die or worse. it made no sense to me.

furthermore, i think a dishonorable discharge sounds out of reason in this case. i would be surprised if his infractions are worthy of a DD, but if they are, then so be it. i just hope he doesnt get caught up in the political side of it all since so many people have seen it and be used as political ploy or tool, sacrificed to appease overly emotional public cries.

on a final note, i dont think there should be a difference between killing a dog or a cow or any other animal. as long as it is utilitarian (we get food from the cow, a dog may be a nuisance, an insect carries diseases, etc) then there should be no difference between them. sure, fido is cuter than ol' bessie the milk cow, but that is something that people read into it themselves. none of these animals are capable of thought.....they merely have their animal instincts and learned behaviors. and that is the difference between us and them, and why it is ok to kill an animal but not a human (obvious exceptions apply)






Re: punishment for animal cruelty? RE: marine & the puppy vid
Wednesday, March 12, 2008 7:52 AM on j-body.org
KevinP (Stabby McShankyou) wrote:Animals don't have souls.

I have never seen a wild thing feel sorry for itself. A sparrow will drop frozen from a winter bough before even once considering it's own pity.

That is what separates us from the animals. We have sorrow, love, regret. Dogs don't think twice if they have to eat their own young. A dog has never mourned a dead pup. A father dog does not cry when his pups leave, nor do the pups cry when the father leaves.

A dog has never written Romeo and Juliet, or War and Peace. A dog has never worshiped, so how can you say they have a soul? If dogs had a religion, they would have war as well.

killing a dog is no different than squashing an insect.

The question; children, is why is it everyone gets up in arms about a marine killing a puppy, while remaining apathetic about the fact that he has also killed men?

Then obviously you don't pay attention animal world. Watch a few wildlife programs some of the smarter animals such as Elephants do mourn others. If a mother dog doesn't love it's pups then why does it defend them against threats? Same goes for the rest of the animals. Most gaurd their young until they're old enough to fend for themselves. Animals aren't as stupid as we humans think hell in my opinion there are far more intelligent animals than there are humans. You don't see animals starting wars over religious BS or causing genocide because of ones skin color or religion.







Re: punishment for animal cruelty? RE: marine & the puppy vid
Wednesday, March 12, 2008 8:32 AM on j-body.org
Quote:


Then obviously you don't pay attention animal world. Watch a few wildlife programs some of the smarter animals such as Elephants do mourn others. If a mother dog doesn't love it's pups then why does it defend them against threats? Same goes for the rest of the animals. Most gaurd their young until they're old enough to fend for themselves. Animals aren't as stupid as we humans think hell in my opinion there are far more intelligent animals than there are humans. You don't see animals starting wars over religious BS or causing genocide because of ones skin color or religion.




1. There's a difference between instincts and love. Dogs protect their young because of instinct, not love.


2. The elephants thing is interesting.


3. as for the 'animals don't start war' comment.... My friend works on a turkey barn, and they paint a line of paint on a turkeys back after it's been bred. A barn is divided in three sections, and they use different colors of paint on the turkeys in each pen. However, sometimes a 'blue' turkey jumps over the fence into the 'yellow' turkeys' area. The yellow turkeys will kill the blue turkey immediately. You can tell me whatever you want, but that's racism in it's purest.
Re: punishment for animal cruelty? RE: marine & the puppy vid
Wednesday, March 12, 2008 9:36 AM on j-body.org
News Flash Kevin/Tabs. Elephants have "graveyards" (so to speak) and it's not uncommon to see a old elephant drop dead and their offspring not only mourn the body, but attempt to chase savengers like hyenas away from the carcass. Plus, you say pets don't have a religion....you son't see it very possible that they at least look at us, humans as at least avatard or demigsd, if not gods? After all, we do feed them and protect them...usually.

I think the biggest problem is that we base animals because of the communication issue. We really don't know what's going on in their mind because we can't communicate with them effectively.

Further, i think the burden of proof is more on humans to prove humans have souls than to prove that animals do--and you can't do that without bringing some form of religion into it, and since you can't prove religion without a doubt, it makes that argument moot.

Lastly, Tabs/Kevin: Yes, in my eyes killing a puppy is worse than killing a human in many, if not some cases. Remember, you're dealing with a misanthorpist in me. I consider killing a puppy for "sport" or "amusement" as a needless death. For the most part killing a human i liken to killing a female mosquito--elimination of a parasite. Although a mosquito usually doen't kill the host...maybe a strangler fig is a better analogy...or HIV.



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Re: punishment for animal cruelty? RE: marine & the puppy vid
Wednesday, March 12, 2008 9:43 AM on j-body.org
Spike J wrote:Then obviously you don't pay attention animal world. Watch a few wildlife programs some of the smarter animals such as Elephants do mourn others. If a mother dog doesn't love it's pups then why does it defend them against threats? Same goes for the rest of the animals. Most gaurd their young until they're old enough to fend for themselves. Animals aren't as stupid as we humans think hell in my opinion there are far more intelligent animals than there are humans. You don't see animals starting wars over religious BS or causing genocide because of ones skin color or religion.

again, animals use instincts and learned behaviors. mothers protect their young because its hard wired into their systems in order to propagate their species. thats it. ive heard this elephant "mourning" others thing, but i think theres something else going on with it and we are just interpreting it as mourning. nothing more than imbuing animals with human emotions in order to make them seem more "human" than what they actually are.

and as willem pointed out, animals are just as "racist" as any humans. they cant cause destruction on the same level as us because theyre just animals. but animals kill each other just because they are different or have defects or are from a different breed or whatever else. its this mindless killing that makes us refer to senseless acts of violence by humans as "animal-like" im sure youve heard someone refer to a serial killer as "an animal". why do you think that is?




Re: punishment for animal cruelty? RE: marine & the puppy vid
Wednesday, March 12, 2008 10:10 AM on j-body.org
It's because we base animals, and it's a reaffirment of said abasement. Believe me, animals aren't so much racist as, well, nationalistic. Packs of animals will go to war with each other. Willem's example is not so much racist (it would be if they bred a whole group of turkeys, and painted some of them in one group blue and others yellow within the same grouping and then the group subdivided), as it is like crips vs. bloods, or rather, Iran vs. Israel.

Really, is the simplest solution that we're imbuing animals with human emotions and making them seem more human, or do animals have emotions as well, and those elephants really are mourning? Without an accurate means of communication, you won't be able to tell if there are indeed emotions or not.

Still, looking at things...we've barely cracked 100,000 years as a specie. Too bad. By calculations of specie longevity, that gives us 9,900,000 years left. Here's hoping whatver takes over after we become extinch, or whatever we evolve into does a better job.

And for the record, humans are the only species that maliciously mutilate the genitals of the opposite sex, and rape those that aren't sexually mature. We're not animals, we're demons.



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Re: punishment for animal cruelty? RE: marine & the puppy vid
Wednesday, March 12, 2008 12:17 PM on j-body.org
Quote:

again, animals use instincts and learned behaviors. mothers protect their young because its hard wired into their systems in order to propagate their species. thats it.

The same can be said for humans as well. Don't our children learn from our behaviors? We nurture them till there ready for the world the only difference is we keep in touch where as most animals don't.
Quote:

and as willem pointed out, animals are just as "racist" as any humans. they cant cause destruction on the same level as us because theyre just animals. but animals kill each other just because they are different or have defects or are from a different breed or whatever else. its this mindless killing that makes us refer to senseless acts of violence by humans as "animal-like" im sure youve heard someone refer to a serial killer as "an animal". why do you think that is?

Racist huh. Why can dogs of different species get along in a single household? Why can cats of different colors get along? Oh thats right there not racist, or speciest. Animals kill for only 3 things; territory, mating, and eating. There's a few pack animals that kill for no logical reason like feral dog and cat groups. Like KOTL said we'll be ignorant of what animals are thinking until we can crack their language. Humans are nothing more than evolved animals.










Re: punishment for animal cruelty? RE: marine & the puppy vid
Wednesday, March 12, 2008 1:04 PM on j-body.org
Spike J wrote:Racist huh. Why can dogs of different species get along in a single household? Why can cats of different colors get along? Oh thats right there not racist, or speciest. Animals kill for only 3 things; territory, mating, and eating. There's a few pack animals that kill for no logical reason like feral dog and cat groups. Like KOTL said we'll be ignorant of what animals are thinking until we can crack their language. Humans are nothing more than evolved animals.

just like not all people are racist, not all animals will attack other animals of a different breed, etc. and trust me, animals kill for more than those reasons. we used to have a kennel when i was growing up and dogs would sometimes kill the ones that had a defect (such as a broken leg or a sickness) even if they had been with them for years, mothers sometimes ate the runt of the litter or just ignored it completely, not providing milk for their young, etc. ive seen plenty of it. we had to intervene and nurture those animals ourselves. if a dog had a broken leg or was sick we would have to separate it from the rest until it was fully recovered. so sorry, these dont fit nicely into your 3 reasons that animals supposedly kill.

yes humans are animals, but we are capable of thought. we are cognizant. we create (poetry, art, music, etc). that is what separates us from the rest of the animals on the planet. the reason people try to say that animals are more than what they are is because they want to believe that they are not alone. that there is some other form of intelligent creature out there. so they say that animals do this or that because they have the same emotions as humans but just cant communicate them to us because of a lack of verbal communication. personally, i think thats just BS. sometimes a spade is just a spade and nothing more. we are more highly evolved than the rest of the animals on the planet and its that simple.

and now that we've gotten completely off track............ahh well




Re: punishment for animal cruelty? RE: marine & the puppy vid
Wednesday, March 12, 2008 2:57 PM on j-body.org
All verbal communication consists of is sound-based communication. I can think of no less than...well...all cetacean species that communicate through sound. And that's just one clade.

I think it's just some people have a superioty complex and forget that we're simply talking meat, and we have an over-developed brain to compensate for an underdeveloped body.

The problem with "highly evolved" also means "highly specialized", which translates to "bye-bye at the next mass extinction event".

And tabs, there's one thing you're missing pn your descriptions of why animals kill: Preseving the genepool--or at least, the herd. Runts of the litter are abandoned because they bring the genepool down, or slow the pack up. Injured animals are often killed outright or left to die for the same reasons. The Inuit's weak and infirm will often wander out into the tundra to die, and are ofted held in high regard for doing so. If i'm not mistaken, that is considered a selfless act of honor.

We have Terry Schiavo.


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Re: punishment for animal cruelty? RE: marine & the puppy vid
Wednesday, March 12, 2008 9:53 PM on j-body.org
what you are forgetting about humans being highly evolved is that we became that way by being highly adaptable. people have spread across the entire earth, from hot, to cold, and dry to wet in a relatively short amount of time. for that reason, whatever mass extinction event you can imagine, people will overcome it because of our adaptability. sure, some will die of the cold, or heat, or flood, or famine, but SOME will survive.

because humans are vastly more intelligent than animals is why we are so adaptable. consider that if the dinosaurs were clever enough to fire a rocket and destroy the meteor that wiped them out, then they would not be extinct. humans, in dire straits, have always overcome adversity for themselves and for others. i have never seen a dog nurture a sick dog. "it's a dog eat dog world" is a phrase coined from truth, for if a pup is sick, the mother will kill it. if the alpha male is injured, the beta male will kill it.

so here's my point. what separates humans from animals is the fact that we are empathetic to life. we get upset because a puppy was killed, but for them it's not even an issue--only part of life. now, that empathy, these emotions, are not necessarily what makes us greater than animals, it is our greatest weakness, but between humans and humans, it's our greatest strength.







Re: punishment for animal cruelty? RE: marine & the puppy vid
Thursday, March 13, 2008 9:50 AM on j-body.org
Consider how we've evolved:

If you hold true that humans in their natural state are tropical or savanna species:

We've inhabited deserts by being able to carry water with us through animal stomachs and other primitive "canteens", and that evolved into complex irrigation and complex cooling systems requireing an infrastructure to support it, and have grown dependent on it.

We've inhabited temperate, and from there, mountainous, taiga, and tundra regions by using animal hides for clothing. From there, we've evolved to utilize man-made fabrics and fibres for extreme warmth, and also utilized complex imfrastructiures to control our habitat.

The key is HOW we've evolved. We've become a specie dependent on our own machinations. Like the flower that requres a rare fly to pollinate it, and the fly going extinct--if the infrastructure is destroyed, we're screwed 8 ways from tuesday.

I mean really, how many AVERAGE humans can adequately survive without infrastruture supporting them?

Therein lies what i find is stupidity. We've become so proud, and so dependent on our toys that we're lost without them. Our biggest weakness is we believe we're separate from, and independent from, and better than, nature.

Tell that to the people in Sumatra. They know we're nature's bitch.

Further, humans aren't the only specie that's empathic to life. I think animals have a more realistic stance on it--life happens, death happens. Sick pup brings down the overall survival of the specie. Besides, the mother dog can always make a new pup.

While you're right in that it's a good strngth to personalize and have emptahy, it's also our weakness as a specie. Now, if you take the different clades of animals, notice how it's always the most specialized ones to die out. The most general have been the most successful. Dinosaurs in the late cretaceous were highly specialized. One meteorite impact and BOOM. Bye Bye Barney. Meanwhile, you have some relatively simple creatues, like Alligators and Sharks...they survived the Permian/Triassic extinction.

Says something of species success there. I don't think humans have THAT level of adaptability--especially since we're the last living specie of our genus.


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