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Bush to veto bill banning waterboarding
Friday, March 07, 2008 8:41 PM on j-body.org
Bush to Veto Bill Banning Waterboarding

President Bush delivers a statement on the economy, Friday, March 7, 2008, a...
2 hours ago

WASHINGTON — The White House says President Bush will veto legislation on Saturday that would have barred the CIA from using waterboarding — a technique that simulates drowning — and other harsh interrogation methods on terror suspects.

Bush has said the bill would harm the government's ability to prevent future attacks. Supporters of the legislation argue that it preserves the United States' right to collect critical intelligence while boosting the country's moral standing abroad.

"The bill would take away one of the most valuable tools on the war on terror, the CIA program to detain and question key terrorist leaders and operatives," deputy White House press secretary Tony Fratto said Friday.

The bill would restrict the CIA to using only the 19 interrogation techniques listed in the Army field manual.

The legislation would bar the CIA from using waterboarding, sensory deprivation or other coercive methods to break a prisoner who refuses to answer questions. Those practices were banned by the military in 2006, but the president wants the harsh interrogation methods to be a part of the CIA's toolbox.

Backers of the legislation, which cleared the House in December and won Senate approval last month, say the interrogation methods used by the military are sufficient.

"President Bush's veto will be one of the most shameful acts of his presidency," Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass., said in a statement Friday. "Unless Congress overrides the veto, it will go down in history as a flagrant insult to the rule of law and a serious stain on the good name of America in the eyes of the world."

He noted that the Army field manual contends that harsh interrogation is a "poor technique that yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say what he thinks the (interrogator) wants to hear."





...Discuss




Re: Bush to veto bill banning waterboarding
Friday, March 07, 2008 11:33 PM on j-body.org
Throw him off a cliff if he dont talk i mean seriously they fear no death so what would this do make them laugh.



Re: Bush to veto bill banning waterboarding
Saturday, March 08, 2008 12:25 AM on j-body.org
Black Jack Pershing....Phillipines.....WWI. That would do the trick.

This is an open invitation for all the socialist, anit-American and the Bush Haters to have a heyday. Go ahead and pour the water down their throats.....ice water preferably.....slightly salty icewater....and then throw their puppy off a cliff.

.


“Poor Al Gore. Global warming completely debunked via the very Internet you invented. Oh, oh, the irony!” -Jon Stewart
Re: Bush to veto bill banning waterboarding
Saturday, March 08, 2008 3:32 AM on j-body.org
Bad Ace Design wrote:Bush to Veto Bill Banning Waterboarding

President Bush delivers a statement on the economy, Friday, March 7, 2008, a...
2 hours ago

WASHINGTON — The White House says President Bush will veto legislation on Saturday that would have barred the CIA from using waterboarding — a technique that simulates drowning — and other harsh interrogation methods on terror suspects.

Bush has said the bill would harm the government's ability to prevent future attacks. Supporters of the legislation argue that it preserves the United States' right to collect critical intelligence while boosting the country's moral standing abroad.

"The bill would take away one of the most valuable tools on the war on terror, the CIA program to detain and question key terrorist leaders and operatives," deputy White House press secretary Tony Fratto said Friday.

The bill would restrict the CIA to using only the 19 interrogation techniques listed in the Army field manual.

The legislation would bar the CIA from using waterboarding, sensory deprivation or other coercive methods to break a prisoner who refuses to answer questions. Those practices were banned by the military in 2006, but the president wants the harsh interrogation methods to be a part of the CIA's toolbox.

Backers of the legislation, which cleared the House in December and won Senate approval last month, say the interrogation methods used by the military are sufficient.

"President Bush's veto will be one of the most shameful acts of his presidency," Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass., said in a statement Friday. "Unless Congress overrides the veto, it will go down in history as a flagrant insult to the rule of law and a serious stain on the good name of America in the eyes of the world."

He noted that the Army field manual contends that harsh interrogation is a "poor technique that yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say what he thinks the (interrogator) wants to hear."


aside from the bold being true @!#$ it let the spooks do what they gotta do there.

Sen. Kennedy needs another drink, when he and his kin are ustanding law abiding members of society, he can then change out a dollar and throw his 2 cents in.






...Discuss




Re: Bush to veto bill banning waterboarding
Saturday, March 08, 2008 3:35 AM on j-body.org
ToBoGgAn wrote:owned by my own stupidity
Bad Ace Design wrote:Bush to Veto Bill Banning Waterboarding

President Bush delivers a statement on the economy, Friday, March 7, 2008, a...
2 hours ago

WASHINGTON — The White House says President Bush will veto legislation on Saturday that would have barred the CIA from using waterboarding — a technique that simulates drowning — and other harsh interrogation methods on terror suspects.

Bush has said the bill would harm the government's ability to prevent future attacks. Supporters of the legislation argue that it preserves the United States' right to collect critical intelligence while boosting the country's moral standing abroad.

"The bill would take away one of the most valuable tools on the war on terror, the CIA program to detain and question key terrorist leaders and operatives," deputy White House press secretary Tony Fratto said Friday.

The bill would restrict the CIA to using only the 19 interrogation techniques listed in the Army field manual.

The legislation would bar the CIA from using waterboarding, sensory deprivation or other coercive methods to break a prisoner who refuses to answer questions. Those practices were banned by the military in 2006, but the president wants the harsh interrogation methods to be a part of the CIA's toolbox.

Backers of the legislation, which cleared the House in December and won Senate approval last month, say the interrogation methods used by the military are sufficient.

"President Bush's veto will be one of the most shameful acts of his presidency," Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass., said in a statement Friday. "Unless Congress overrides the veto, it will go down in history as a flagrant insult to the rule of law and a serious stain on the good name of America in the eyes of the world."

He noted that the Army field manual contends that harsh interrogation is a "poor technique that yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say what he thinks the (interrogator) wants to hear."

...Discuss



ToBoGgAn wrote:aside from the bold being true @!#$ it let the spooks do what they gotta do there.

Sen. Kennedy needs another drink, when he and his kin are ustanding law abiding members of society, he can then change out a dollar and throw his 2 cents in.






...Discuss




Re: Bush to veto bill banning waterboarding
Saturday, March 08, 2008 7:12 AM on j-body.org
Okay.. so the CIA is no longer subject to cruel and unusual punishment restrictions?

Was extraordinary rendition not enough? I mean it violated a bunch of ammendments (ie, 1st (freedom to petition), 4th (unreasonable search & seizure of property and person), 5th (no Grand Jury indictment), 6th (Speedy trial evasion), 8th (cruel and unusual punishment), and 11th (no redress opportunities for wrongful prosecution of foreign nationals)), guaranteed bad information and torture...

Anyhow, I guess we oughtta peg Dubya alongside a few other human rights notables. His commitment is dubious.


Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.


Re: Bush to veto bill banning waterboarding
Saturday, March 08, 2008 9:10 AM on j-body.org
Our own soldiers don't get all of those rights, much less some yammering arab terrorist. Prison ships in international waters are our best friends...

.


“Poor Al Gore. Global warming completely debunked via the very Internet you invented. Oh, oh, the irony!” -Jon Stewart
Re: Bush to veto bill banning waterboarding
Saturday, March 08, 2008 9:23 AM on j-body.org
"simulated drowning"

the cia needs to be overhauled. they worked fine in the cold war....but nowadays, just, um, no.




Re: Bush to veto bill banning waterboarding
Saturday, March 08, 2008 11:50 AM on j-body.org
ScottaWhite wrote:Our own soldiers don't get all of those rights, much less some yammering arab terrorist. Prison ships in international waters are our best friends...

.

Maher Arar didn't get those rights either, and he's a Canadian Citizen who was travelling in the US in 2002.

If you want to win the war on nouns, you can't become your own worst enemy.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.


Re: Bush to veto bill banning waterboarding
Saturday, March 08, 2008 7:17 PM on j-body.org
....above us only sky....

.


“Poor Al Gore. Global warming completely debunked via the very Internet you invented. Oh, oh, the irony!” -Jon Stewart
Re: Bush to veto bill banning waterboarding
Saturday, March 08, 2008 11:24 PM on j-body.org
ScottaWhite wrote:....above us only sky....

.


What a waste...




Re: Bush to veto bill banning waterboarding
Sunday, March 09, 2008 2:01 PM on j-body.org
WASHINGTON — Democrats and human rights advocates criticized President Bush's veto Saturday of a bill that would have banned the CIA from using simulated drowning and other coercive interrogation methods to gain information from suspected terrorists.

Bush said such tactics have helped foil terrorist plots. His critics likened some methods to torture and said they sullied America's reputation around the world.

"This president had the chance to end the torture debate for good, yet he chose instead to leave the door open to use torture in the future," said Democratic Sen. Dianne Feinstein of California, a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee.

She said Bush ignored the advice of 43 retired generals and admirals and 18 national security experts, including former secretaries of state and national security advisers, who supported the bill.

"Torture is a black mark against the United States," she said.

The bill would have limited the CIA to 19 interrogation techniques that are used by the military and spelled out in the Army Field Manual. Bush said he vetoed the measure because it is important for the CIA to have a separate and classified interrogation program for suspected terrorists who possess critical information about possible plots against the United States.

Bush, who used his weekly radio address to announce the veto, said the program had helped stop plots against a Marine camp in Djibouti and the U.S. consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, and plans to fly passenger planes into a Los Angeles tower or London's Heathrow Airport and city buildings.

"Were it not for this program, our intelligence community believes that al-Qaida and its allies would have succeeded in launching another attack against the American homeland," the president said.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said the nation's ability to lead the world depends on its morality, not military might. "We will begin to reassert that moral authority by attempting to override the president's veto next week," said Pelosi, D-Calif.

Based on the margin of passage in each chamber, it may prove difficult for the Democratic-controlled Congress to turn back Bush's veto. It takes a two-thirds majority, and the vote was 222-199 in the House and 51-45 in the Senate.

Bush said he did not veto the bill specifically over waterboarding, a technique that simulates drowning. The Army banned the use of waterboarding or sensory deprivation on uncooperative prisoners in 2006. The CIA, which also prohibited the practice in 2006, has acknowledged using waterboarding on three suspected terrorists in 2003.

"My disagreement ... is not over any particular interrogation technique; for instance, it is not over waterboarding, which is not part of the current CIA program," Bush said in his veto message to the House.

The attorney general has deemed that program legal under domestic and international law, he said.

Still, waterboarding remains in the CIA's tool kit. The technique can be used, but it requires the consent of the attorney general and president on a case-by-case basis. Bush wants to keep that option open.

"I cannot sign into law a bill that would prevent me, and future presidents, from authorizing the CIA to conduct a separate, lawful intelligence program, and from taking all lawful actions necessary to protect Americans from attack," Bush said in a statement.

Democrats say the CIA should be restricted to the techniques in the Army Field Manual. They include the "good cop-bad cop" routine; making prisoners think they are in another country's custody; and separating a prisoner from others for up to 30 days.

In addition to waterboarding, the field manual prohibits hooding prisoners or putting duct tape across their eyes; stripping prisoners naked; and forcing prisoners to perform or mimic sexual acts. It also prohibits beating, burning or physically hurting prisoners in other ways; subjecting them to hypothermia or mock executions. It does not allow food, water and medical treatment to be withheld. Dogs may not be used in any aspect of interrogation.

Waterboarding involves strapping a person down and pouring water over his cloth-covered face to create the sensation of drowning. It has been traced back hundreds of years to the Spanish Inquisition and is condemned by nations around the world and human rights organizations as torture.

In a memo to CIA employees Saturday, CIA Director Michael Hayden said the Army Field Manual does not "exhaust the universe" of lawful interrogation techniques. "There are methods in the CIA's program that have been briefed to our oversight committees, are fully consistent with the Geneva Convention and current U.S. law and are most certainly not torture," Hayden wrote.

Sen. Jay Rockefeller, chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, said he had heard nothing to suggest that the CIA, through enhanced interrogation methods, had obtained information to thwart a terrorist attack. "On the other hand, I do know that coercive interrogations can lead detainees to provide false information in order to make the interrogation stop," said Rockefeller, D-W.Va.

There also are concerns that the use of waterboarding would undermine U.S. human rights efforts overseas and could place Americans at greater risk of being tortured if they are captured abroad.

"The president's refusal to sign this crucial legislation into law will undermine counterterrorism efforts globally and delay efforts to rebuild U.S. credibility on human rights," said Elisa Massimino, Washington director for Human Rights First.

Bush objected to two other provisions:

_a new independent inspector general for the government's intelligence agencies to improve coordination and information-sharing. Bush said the position was unnecessary.

_Senate confirmation of the directors of the National Security Agency and National Reconnaissance Office. Bush said that could delay the directors' ability to take over quickly and risk injecting politics into the selection process.



Re: Bush to veto bill banning waterboarding
Sunday, March 09, 2008 3:40 PM on j-body.org
Scaring the people into submission. What a joke.. Bush is such a tool.


wysiwyg wrote:i would say they bang, they don't really pound so much. but if
you want to bump, then they will bump and hit real hard and a lot good.

LOL
Re: Bush to veto bill banning waterboarding
Sunday, March 09, 2008 5:43 PM on j-body.org
Whatever wrote:Scaring the people into submission. What a joke.. Bush is such a tool.
Do you have a better idea?
I'm sure they asked politely before they went to the waterboarding.



.
Re: Bush to veto bill banning waterboarding
Sunday, March 09, 2008 6:03 PM on j-body.org
Quote:

Do you have a better idea?
I'm sure they asked politely before they went to the waterboarding.


There is no better idea. Waterboarding is a hell of allot better than some other interrogation techniques. Are you telling me allied soldiers who are taken prisoner arnt tortured by worse means? How about " ill cut off your head in the town square if you dont tell me what I want to hear" Is that better?

News flash: NO ENEMY IN THE WAR ON TERROR IS FOLLOWING THE GENEVA CONVENTION OR ANY OTHER CONVENTION ON TORTURE.

Im not saying waterboarding isnt torture but its effective and more humain than forms of torture used on the other side.




"Go Before Show Yo."
CARCUSTOMS.NET, THE BEST SERVICE ON THE ORG!!!
Re: Bush to veto bill banning waterboarding
Sunday, March 09, 2008 6:57 PM on j-body.org
Gameoverracing. wrote:
Quote:

Do you have a better idea?
I'm sure they asked politely before they went to the waterboarding.


There is no better idea. Waterboarding is a hell of allot better than some other interrogation techniques. Are you telling me allied soldiers who are taken prisoner arnt tortured by worse means? How about " ill cut off your head in the town square if you dont tell me what I want to hear" Is that better?

News flash: NO ENEMY IN THE WAR ON TERROR IS FOLLOWING THE GENEVA CONVENTION OR ANY OTHER CONVENTION ON TORTURE.

Im not saying waterboarding isnt torture but its effective and more humain than forms of torture used on the other side.


Try and understand my post before quoting me and responding.

I don't think that you realize I agree with you.


.
Re: Bush to veto bill banning waterboarding
Sunday, March 09, 2008 10:23 PM on j-body.org
Gameoverracing. wrote:
Quote:

Do you have a better idea?
I'm sure they asked politely before they went to the waterboarding.


There is no better idea. Waterboarding is a hell of allot better than some other interrogation techniques. Are you telling me allied soldiers who are taken prisoner arnt tortured by worse means? How about " ill cut off your head in the town square if you dont tell me what I want to hear" Is that better?

News flash: NO ENEMY IN THE WAR ON TERROR IS FOLLOWING THE GENEVA CONVENTION OR ANY OTHER CONVENTION ON TORTURE.

Im not saying waterboarding isnt torture but its effective and more humain than forms of torture used on the other side.


That kind of logic makes us no better than the terrorists.



Re: Bush to veto bill banning waterboarding
Sunday, March 09, 2008 11:02 PM on j-body.org
It does make us different. Example. The terrorists say "we'll cut your head off in town square if you don't tell us what we want to hear"

We say "We're going to pour water down your throat until you start to drown, then we'll stop long enough for you to choke it up, then we'll do it again, but you wont die, just suffer...and live happily ever after, providing you tell us where your Jihadist brother is that is making those IED's."

That's a big difference in logic. We don't stoop quite to their level, but we come close. And that is the difference.

If waterboarding were proposed as a swell idea by a politician you adored, we probably wouldn't hear a peep out of you all.

Making us no different than them....sheesh.....reminds me of the movies where a father comes home and finds his family raped, and cut into pieces. He gets a gun and tracks down the killer and turns him over to the police to play "bu the rules of nicey nicey civilization".
The guy gets off on a technicality and then smiles at the father on the way out of the courtroom. Dear ol' dad gets his gun back out and chases the guy down and is about to pull the trigger, when the kindly detectives says: " No, Lance...dont do it, if you kill him, you'll be no better than him. (at this point the killer says "yeah Lance, you don't have the guts do you..._) Lance's lip begins to quiver and drops the gun and falls into a nearby policeman's arms to cry.

Is that the kind of world you think we live in Bad Ace? If so, save me a seat in the middle of the 5th row.

.


“Poor Al Gore. Global warming completely debunked via the very Internet you invented. Oh, oh, the irony!” -Jon Stewart
Re: Bush to veto bill banning waterboarding
Monday, March 10, 2008 4:31 AM on j-body.org
what i found funny is that college kids were protesting out front by waterboarding their friends. kinda odd that something you are screaming is torture and inhuman your doing on your physics partner. kinda like saying killing puppies is bad by standing out side and beating little puppies to death.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/sndsgood/ https://www.facebook.com/#!/Square1Photography
Re: Bush to veto bill banning waterboarding
Monday, March 10, 2008 5:02 PM on j-body.org
Gameoverracing. wrote:
Quote:

Do you have a better idea?
I'm sure they asked politely before they went to the waterboarding.


There is no better idea. Waterboarding is a hell of allot better than some other interrogation techniques. Are you telling me allied soldiers who are taken prisoner arnt tortured by worse means? How about " ill cut off your head in the town square if you dont tell me what I want to hear" Is that better?

News flash: NO ENEMY IN THE WAR ON TERROR IS FOLLOWING THE GENEVA CONVENTION OR ANY OTHER CONVENTION ON TORTURE.

Im not saying waterboarding isnt torture but its effective and more humain than forms of torture used on the other side.


War on terror? More like war on human rights, and our freedoms.


wysiwyg wrote:i would say they bang, they don't really pound so much. but if
you want to bump, then they will bump and hit real hard and a lot good.

LOL
Re: Bush to veto bill banning waterboarding
Tuesday, March 11, 2008 9:05 AM on j-body.org
ScottaWhite wrote:It does make us different. Example. The terrorists say "we'll cut your head off in town square if you don't tell us what we want to hear"

We say "We're going to pour water down your throat until you start to drown, then we'll stop long enough for you to choke it up, then we'll do it again, but you wont die, just suffer...and live happily ever after, providing you tell us where your Jihadist brother is that is making those IED's."

That's a big difference in logic. We don't stoop quite to their level, but we come close. And that is the difference.

The problem in both cases is that when there isn't any evidence (see again Maher Arar) what you're getting isn't worth a damn either way, and you know that. It would seem to me that the prospect of a life in a keep-away prison like a federal institution or lawful deportation (because a lot of these guys are Saudis or from US-friendly nations) is less savory than giving up the truth... There are other incentives: everyone has a price.

Torture has never been an effective way of getting any kind of viable information out of a suspect. Waterboarding, thumb screws, rubber hoses, telephone books... it's all punitive, boorish and ineffective ways of extracting completely useless information (when you get what you want to hear as opposed to what you need to know good/bad/ugly). Again, if you want to win the war on nouns, you might as well get GOOD intelligence, right? Unless you think that retired Generals/Admirals and current security experts know nothing about interrogation, it might be a good idea to listen to people that actually know about this kind of stuff: Stand by your moral rhetoric.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.



Re: Bush to veto bill banning waterboarding
Tuesday, March 11, 2008 9:17 AM on j-body.org
Gotta hand it to those Admirals from Annapolis....all that training on torture and interrogation extraction techniques....and no one gives a hoot about what they have to say. People only want to listen to those in the spy and counter-intelligence business.....what idiots. The next time some soldier turns up missing or we need to find out where the cache Jihadi rockets are....just hire a medium and ask Chester Nimitz... he'll know.

No one wants to see the cow butchered, but we all enjoy a good porterhouse medium rare.

.


“Poor Al Gore. Global warming completely debunked via the very Internet you invented. Oh, oh, the irony!” -Jon Stewart
Re: Bush to veto bill banning waterboarding
Tuesday, March 11, 2008 11:06 AM on j-body.org
Even if the porterhouse is equine and not bovine? You want to order a beef-steak and pay for horse-steaks, be my guest.

BTW, there's security specialists that are derriding waterboarding... they're your spooks.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.


Re: Bush to veto bill banning waterboarding
Tuesday, March 11, 2008 11:37 AM on j-body.org
Jihadi rockets?

Perhaps you should learn what words mean before you use them.

The enemy is the enemy because of their actions. When your action mirror your enemy, then what. You are becoming what you hate and there is your first mistake. Put aside the hate for a moment and use your head.

A wise old man once said "an enemy is a person who's story has not been heard", he was right.

PAX


PS: This is what part of the alphabet would look like if Q and R were eliminated
- Mitch Hedberg (RIP)
Re: Bush to veto bill banning waterboarding
Tuesday, March 11, 2008 8:07 PM on j-body.org
Jihad is a holy war as far as I know. Rockets are those thingies that go BOOM and use a propulsion system to get from the shoulder of Achmed to the side of a Humvee.

So, I guess it loosely means Jihadi rockets.

Another wise old man once said "Fight fire with fire".

.


“Poor Al Gore. Global warming completely debunked via the very Internet you invented. Oh, oh, the irony!” -Jon Stewart
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