[quote=Keeper Of The Light™ (Strazca)]Something to spark a bit more fuel into this--and I'm going to pick on you, Robbie
You said before that an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent being basically negates free will. Not necessarily.
at your examples
According to the Christian religion (and to use some of their doctrine in this statement), The Book of Life is the final record on each one of us. To simply put it, the Book of Life is a sheet of names of everyone that has been born and will be born. Next to each name are two boxes. One box is labeled "eternal life" and the other box is labeled "eternal death". Now picture a single check mark in just one of those boxes for each and every name in that Book of Life.
On the basis of God's perfect all knowing foreknowledge, he checked one of those boxes next to every name. Then he did something very unusual. He blotted out the names of those whose "eternal death" box was checked.
Exodus 32: 32:32 "Now, please forgive them of this sin. And if you will not forgive them, then erase my name from the book in which you have written the names of your people." But the Lord told Moses, "I will erase from my book the names of the people who sin against me."
The Book was then sealed, only to be opened at final judgement. Only God knows who is in that book and who has been blotted out.
Revelation 17:8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."
Psalms 69:28 "May they be blotted out of the book of life, And may they not be recorded with the righteous."
Philippians 4:3 "And I urge you also, true companion, help these women who labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life."
Revelation 3:5 "He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and his name will not be blotted out from the Book of Life."
Notice too that God will judge each person individually. So on Judgment Day, you will not be part of a group or a church. You will not be one of many. You will be standing all alone, and you will be standing in front of God himself.
Luke 10:20 "Rejoice, because your names are recorded in heaven."
Revelation 20:15 "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."
With that, those names not blotted out are predestined to eternal happiness, whereas the rest are predestined for eternal damnation. Regardless what happens, there can be no free will based on that religion since regardless what is done (taking a life as a whole rather than an individual event).
Also, here is one of the most famous references of denial of free will utilizing a single event:
http://www.carm.org/diff/Matt26_33.htm
I dont put to much stock in the bible.... but interesting none the less..
...and still doesn't really negate my point. Nothing in that doesn't say about multiple instances of the same name. Hell, think of how common "John Smith" is and how much that name would have to be written in--assuming we're taking the Christian Dogma at face value. Further, even if it's the names of everyone who has, is, and will be born, what's to say one descsion doen't mean a different name for the same person about to be born? Are they stricken? Because Mary Jane Rottencrotch decided to name her baby Aloicious as opposed to Waldo, doesn't mean Waldo can't exist on a different level of consiousness; it's a different path of existance that you in your current state may not percieve.
Further, at the end, being just you and you alone could be the you that your consciousness experienced. The other instances in which your consiousness didn't experiened could still be individually judged...
Again, assuming God is fully omnicient, God will know every likely outcome in every likely path of consiousness. God would know the outcome of every choice and descsion out would make, and how they are interlinked to everyone elses' choices and descsions. You'd just choose which path of consiousness on which you ride.
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The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Since that portion of Christian dogma is vague at best, it doesn't state how the names are organized in the book. It could very well be a complete demographic/biological breakdown (John Smith, born Jul 1, 1948 @ 12:34 pm CST to Steve and Suzie in the town of Hell, MI... died Jul 1, 1962 @ 2:34 pm while sucking off a popsicle) or just a single name.
The effort wasn't made to negate your point, just to take a stance against it. The multiple dimension theory is just that. While is is a very plausible theory (and makes for some good television shows sometimes), something about it can't be used to tie the possibility of free will. However to counterpoint it, god, as all-knowing, would know the outcomes of both choices in both dimensions. If either outcome was not known there can be no omnipotence and therefore free will can exist.
On a side note, the doctrine also teaches to "submit your will to god." By allowing oneself to submit their will to the higher power, they voluntarily agree that any choice made would not be their own (not that it was their choice to begin with)
Now why I'm using the Bible to prove something is beyond me... perhaps its the years that I was forced to listen to the falseness the church teaches
I'll stop as of this post.
I love how these types of threads start off as one thing and usually end up in a free-will debate
none of the Gods ever touched ground, none of those gods performed miracles, none of those god ascended into the skies
dude when you die you go to Zion, didnt you see the Matrix sheesh
hehehe
It is a faith system just like other religions of the world. One takes it on faith that a god or the true God of Israel does not exist without any solid proof. The only way to have solid proof is to die but at that point, it is a little too late to find out you were wrong in your faith.
Life is built on free will. Have at it and do not cry about your fate when it finally arrives.
Chris Crossont
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Baltimore, MD
http://www.ahmperformance.com
That was the point...God could know the possibility of every outcome, but you choose which one this instance of your consiousness experiences. Other instances of your consiousness experience different ones.
Like I said though, that's assuming that i didn't see God as a fundamental implausibility.
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The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Machineman wrote:It is a faith system just like other religions of the world. One takes it on faith that a god or the true God of Israel does not exist without any solid proof. The only way to have solid proof is to die but at that point, it is a little too late to find out you were wrong in your faith.
Life is built on free will. Have at it and do not cry about your fate when it finally arrives.
I'm going to break your post into 2 points, one for each paragraph.
Point 1: In other words... Pascal's Wager... (refer back to page 3 of this thread). As simple as the wager is, there is a flaw... Alexis pointed that out later in that page.
Point 2:
Quote:
On a side note, the doctrine also teaches to "submit your will to god." By allowing oneself to submit their will to the higher power, they voluntarily agree that any choice made would not be their own (not that it was their choice to begin with)
And don't worry... I won't cry about it
if the time comes.
Keeper, I'm still not getting how that would allow free will, since the parallel dimension theory is the only one that will allow it... But that's OK. I never admitted to be the quickest crayon in the tool shed.
Well, of course the theory requires you to believe in it.
Otherwise, how would any organized religion work unless people belived in it
Basically, the thinking is, i guess, opposite of usual. if we allow for all possible outcomes, the amount of outcomes would be infinite. God itself may know all of the possible outcomes. it's just when ones you choose to espierience.
if you, say, decided to port your intake manifold tonight, staying up late, rather than this weekend, God will know the outcomes of both descsions, and all of the possible descsions that will come based on what you decide. You, however, only expereince what you choose. what you could have done gets done in an alternate dimension, but your consciousness never experenices it. An alternate consiousness does and never experiences what you choose.
I hope that makes a bit more sense of my logic on it.
Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
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The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Let me first say I can not judge anyone for any beliefs that they have. I did not read every posting on here, honestly cause it would have taken too much time.
I was a intern at my local church to be the youth pastor. I sat at the "head" table for 6 months. I had a massive amount of faith in God, but some of the things that I expierienced while interning made me wonder. There was a teenage girl whose family was litterally bankrupt. They had no electricity, no gas, and no water. So that eliminates basically everything to live in their single wide trailer. They ran an extension cord from their neighbors to power 2 things at a time. They burned wood inside to keep warm. All this happening during the winter months. When I approached the "head pastor" with the situation and asked for help he said "No we cannot. First we can not afford to help anyone in a major crisis and secondly if we help one family we will have more asking for help." That boiled me! I wondered why, why would God allow this. Since then I have not gone to church. I have focused on my wife and my 2 kids. I still believe in God but in a different way. We have to have hope and faith. Without some form of religion it's hard to comprehend what that really is.
Atheists the same. If there were no religion they would have no sense of what Atheism would be. For an atheist to beleive that there is no God why would I have a co-worker(atheist) say God bless you when I sneezed... everytime? How many times in our lives when things get so hard to handle we say God why can't I do this? or God why can't I figure this out? or God help me get out of this mess. Is there really a God... Is the Bible really true or written by man and his idea of God... I don't honestly know. The Bible says your going to Hell, but then says everyone will go to heaven.
Do I call myself a Christian or do I call myself an Atheist for having different beliefs... Honestly I'd rather not claim either. Like I said, I am a husband to my wife, a father to my kids, a brother and a son. I can only live my life as best as I can enjoying it to the fullest, but at the same time keeping myself humble to not be greedy, angry, and inhumane. There is too much arguing and complaining in these days and in the past to worry about which religion/belief is the best way. Instead I think we should be focusing on what is important... our families. (The Bible does say that if you can not teach your families then how can you teach a crowd?)
^^That's the funny thing about language--certain things enter our languaghe without much thought. For the most part, "Jesus Christ" used as a curse is not technically taking the "Lord's" name in vain for the sake of taking the lord's name in vain--it's a simple curse. It so happens that in our culture, at one point, certain things like that entered our collective lexicons, and have stuck.
I find myself saying "God Damnit!" often, even though i find God a fundamental implausibility. Why? When my dad was pissed he's always say it, and i picked it up as a kid. I'm not asking a deity i don't belive in to curse something, it's a "curse" in the linguistic sense--a exclamation used in dismay.\
My g/f is a lot like you in the belief sense...she hates the way Churches in her home country operate (and thinks ours are far worse--for the resons you've just said--and more).
And all a religion is--is a form of comprehending unexplained phenomena--and changing them into noumena (basically, something percieved to something "known"). For example: Everyone dies. what happens to the consiousness? No one knowes, but we know that the body no longer maintains the consciousness, and there's no evidence that proves 100% that the consiousness simply ceases to exist. Thus, the loss of consiousness in this case is an unexplained phenomenon. All religions basically take that concept into their dogmatic teaching and say, "this is what happens when you die." Nothing is proven, but since we have to think in a personal relativistic standpoint, we have to take it as something which is intrinsically "known". A noumenon. Now, of course, there's nothing that is an absolute noumenon, but relativistic noumena is pretty much the foundation of every religion there is.
Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
why be an Atheist?
Because its a hellva lot more realistic and truthful than the @!#$ you brainwashed sheep believe in
1989 Turbo Trans Am #82, 2007 Cobalt SS G85
Keeper pretty much nailed it on the head with the language. I say "goddammit," "jesus christ," and even "god bless you" on occasion simply because they are all common phrases that are said by pretty much everyone. I don't even think about it most of the time, it just comes out. I made a conscious effort for some time to avoid such phrases and failed miserably. It's a subconscious thing.
I was not intending to raise this thread from the dead, but since its back, why not?
Kardian - you always want to say that an "all knowing God" somehow negates free will - and you've never explained adequately that how merely knowing something causes it to happen. More of an issue is how do you believe that a universe devoid of a creator and of any direction besides the laws of physics grants you free will. There absolutely can be no free will in this state. All your brain functions, emotions, consciousness are an illusion dictated by the interactions of sub-atomic particles. Those particle's actions are dictated exclusively through physics laws. By having enough information(aka ALL information) and sufficient mathematical computation power, you could fully predict with 100% accuracy EVERYTHING that has, is, and ever will occur.
You would see that even your predicting these things was "destined" aka set in a set motion from the very beginning. Your "choice" is decided for you by the interaction of subatomic forces. You would ordinarily never realize that in the decisions that have shaped your life you may have decided differently based off of what you ate that day, the position of the moon relative to your body, sunspot activity, and even someone across the world moving their hand. All you need is to affect the trajectory of one atom of a particular chemical in the brain to affect the firing on one neuron in your brain to affect how the whole thing works. Lightning that hit the ground as you slept may change your entire life drastically. You have no free will no matter what you believe therefore.
Rodimus Prime wrote:why be an Atheist?
Because its a hellva lot more realistic and truthful than the @!#$ you brainwashed sheep believe in
First off, not all Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Pagans. etc are "brainwashed sheep" just because they don't believe as you believe. So don't be an arrogant prick. Its not like there aren't a fair share of brainwashed Atheists too. And I think its a much bigger leap of faith to believe in an equally unprovable hypothesis such as "all this is here randomly." No the Big bang is provable, if it is really a fact that it just "happened," and most importantly that the matter/energy composing this universe "just exists" for no real reason(taking into account that matter/energy cannot be created/destroyed) isn't quite as provable. Evolution is provable, but if it was/is entirely random or if it was more-or-less guided, that is not so provable.
Keeping that in mind - is it really so hard to simply say "I DON"T KNOW THE ULTIMATE TRUTH OF THE UNIVERSE" (aka agnosticism)? Or is it easier to pretend you know it all? I believe God is real - I've always felt this was true and it makes logical sense to me. But I've never had that proven/disproven, so this is entirely on faith and I'm not so arrogant as to proclaim it as fact. Yes I know plenty of religious-type nuts who will proclaim it as fact - but most atheists I've met aren't much different - they just "know for fact" something different.
I've never heard of this "part throttle" before. Does it just bolt on?
I dont know the truth of the universe, and niether do you, the difference is I dont put a label on it and try to base my life around it and proclaim myself "saved"
1989 Turbo Trans Am #82, 2007 Cobalt SS G85
Rodimus Prime wrote:I dont know the truth of the universe, and niether do you, the difference is I dont put a label on it and try to base my life around it and proclaim myself "saved"
Well plenty of Christians are that way, many people from various religions are that way, and many Atheists are that way. But if you say that you don't know the truth of the universe - well if you don't know the truth, then just how the hell can you tell someone else that they are WRONG?!
Rodimus Prime wrote:why be an Atheist?
Because its a hellva lot more realistic and truthful than the @!#$ you brainwashed sheep believe in
You don't proclaim yourself "saved." You just proclaim yourself correct. Atheism is more "realistic" and "truthful" than the "@!#$ you brainwashed sheep believe in" huh? I stand by my (now amended) statement -
Bastardking3000 wrote:So don't be an arrogant, hypocritical prick.
Case closed.
I've never heard of this "part throttle" before. Does it just bolt on?
Because I know damn well the earth wasnt made in 6 days and theres more than enough evidence to support evolution, we didnt just @!#$ appear out of thin air
Do you really believe anyone needs to be worshipped? If we are in fact "created in his own image", doesnt that make us all divine?
Religion is far too ambiguous for me to put any stock in
1989 Turbo Trans Am #82, 2007 Cobalt SS G85
Rod: It appears that you're operating under the guise that every single Christian takes everything the Bible says and what their preacher says as the de facto truth.
By your very point in this quote:
Quote:
I dont know the truth of the universe, and niether do you, the difference is I dont put a label on it and try to base my life around it and proclaim myself "saved"
You're turning a unexplained phenominon (truth of the universe), and constructing a relative noumenon (Neither do you/the necessity to base a faith around a set belief system to "save" onesself). Which is in and of itself, a religion.
In simpler terms, The truth of the universe can be observed from a personal view, but not from a view common to everyone. As such, everyone takes faith that their view is correct (and in many cases everyone else's view be damned) no matter what it is. They KNOW it's correct. You know that Atheism/agnosticism is correect (at least for you), but that doesn't negate it being incorrect for, say, B3K.
Is he the misguided sheep? Are you the misguided sheep? Are you both the misquided sheep? Hell, if i had an absolute perspective i could answer that....but i don't.
Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Rodimus Prime wrote:Because I know damn well the earth wasnt made in 6 days and theres more than enough evidence to support evolution, we didnt just @!#$ appear out of thin air
Do you really believe anyone needs to be worshipped? If we are in fact "created in his own image", doesnt that make us all divine?
Religion is far too ambiguous for me to put any stock in
Apparently in your head, religion is an "Us vs Them" thing. That kinda thinking is pretty narrow and unnecessary to boot. You know Christianity isn't the only religion to choose from, so not believing in it does not automatically force you into Atheism - Agnosticism is just as valid for someone who doesn't want to choose a belief. Also, you are disqualifying Christianity because of only one(of many) possible interpretations of the words as they are written.
1. There is not one single interpretation of the Bible into English.
2. There is a good chance that not one translation is that correct.
3. Its pretty possible that the Bible has been accidentally or purposefully(Council of Nicea) changed over time.
4. I think that such books as Genesis may have been written for the simpler people at the time, and so simplified into terms they could more readily understand.
The Bible states that God created all life. It does NOT state that life has not changed/evolved since and as such that new species have not since been born. Who decided in the whole evolution vs religion thing anyways? I think that some evolution successfully happens randomly(especially in simpler single-celled organisms), but that a good majority of it has been guided.
I don't think that everything was done in 6 days. What if "day in age" or "ages" etc was a more accurate interpretation? That certainly fits alot better now.
I don't think we where made in God's literal image. I for one don't take that literally and don't think that God has an actual "image" other than what God might want to appear as at the moment. Image is a product of the interpretation of photons bouncing off of things, and if God existed pre-matter as we know it, I'd say its safe to say God is not composed OF matter as we know it. I think that his image is more in reference to consciousness, sentience, etc. Personal, non biblically based idea here - In a way, I think people are born subconsciously believing they are God and so this universe belongs to them. People have to learn that other people and things matter besides themselves.
In any case I also think its silly when people refer to God as having a gender. Just why would God have a gender?! Because people need to define everything is probably why. Same reason that people argue over the race of Jesus - as if that is even slightly important.
Now that is all just my beliefs and you can believe as you like. But as far, you are behaving exactly the same as the self assured arrogant Christians that you hate. You are just the other side of the same coin. You believing something does not mean you should feel the need to knock what someone else believes. If you really think that someone who DARES disagrees with you is therefore a sheep - then YOU are a sheep.
I've never heard of this "part throttle" before. Does it just bolt on?
Bastardking3000 wrote:Now that is all just my beliefs and you can believe as you like. But as far, you are behaving exactly the same as the self assured arrogant Christians that you hate. You are just the other side of the same coin. You believing something does not mean you should feel the need to knock what someone else believes. If you really think that someone who DARES disagrees with you is therefore a sheep - then YOU are a sheep.
True words, and I am not on his side of this either.
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