Dear Mr. Obama - Page 2 - Politics and War Forum

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Re: Dear Mr. Obama
Thursday, September 11, 2008 5:06 PM on j-body.org
Wade: The net gains from invading Iraq:

- WMD: zero (Duelfer Report.)
- Terrorist attacks: Pre-invasion, Zero. Post invasion... a depressing number over 1.
- Cost of operations in the war: about to hit $600 Billion, or figure about $340 million per day. (Nat'l Priorities.org, The links are referenced to Whitehouse.gov appropriations)




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.



Re: Dear Mr. Obama
Thursday, September 11, 2008 5:21 PM on j-body.org
Whatever wrote:
Poor Mans Cavalier wrote:

I feel there hasn't been a war worth fighting since WWII, so I don't give soldiers any more respect than they deserve. They're just people, you know, fighting for what they believe in. It just isn't what I believe in.


werd


And even then WW2 was about business. As our American businesses were being threatened as the Nazis were invading Europe and harming a free market.

that today's military is "defending our freedom." The only time our freedom was threatened by a outsider was when we had war with England. Pearl Harbor... don't get me started.

Please pick up some history books and read the real reason we go into wars. Trust me, our real history is not painted with a rosy paint brush.


THE POLITICALLY INCORRECT ONE.

Re: Dear Mr. Obama
Thursday, September 11, 2008 8:11 PM on j-body.org
john317(AKA Gary the Old guy) wrote:http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4fe9GlWS8
I watched that video before, and I couldn't help but notice a trend. You could change maybe 5 words in that (and remove the music obviously), and it would be exactly what the Iraqi "insurgents" are probably telling their audience, trying to encourage them to support their cause. They too are dying for what they believe in.
So...why are we more correct than them?
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure as hell not supporting them, and I thank every soldier who goes over there so that I don't have to. However, that doesn't mean I think we should be there in the first place.
I'm just pointing out there are two sides to every story, who's feeding you?




11 speaker JL Audio stereo setup for sale:
http://www.j-body.org/classifieds/audio/52021/

Re: Dear Mr. Obama
Thursday, September 11, 2008 8:57 PM on j-body.org
7 years latter and all you @!#$ people can do it bitch

Christ.

Chris




"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry


Re: Dear Mr. Obama
Friday, September 12, 2008 1:39 AM on j-body.org
FReQ Z (ikE-Zed) wrote:
they do deserve special treatment. they put their life on the line so you can sit here and @!#$ bitch about them.

read the sig. under the pic.
I agree that soldiers deserve our respect even if I don't respect their mission. They didn't start this war but they fight it bravely. However I must counter your sig -
Thomas Jefferson wrote:Dissent is the highest form of patriotism

and now now for
Wade Jarvis wrote:
protomec wrote:I did not watch either link.


And I am a true believer in the freedoms the constitution speaks of.

But as I am only a few hours past having to remove my clothing and open my baggage for search and inspection...
Because I was in the process of committing a crime, or at least I guess I had to be because the 4th amendment says I would not be going through that unless I was or had committed a crime...
And that crime, as it turns out (I had no idea it was one), was the intent to use a mass transportation system to travel from NC to MI...

I have to ask...


WHERE IS THIS FREEDOM YOU SPEAK OF ME ENJOYING?????

I may want to move to that country.


No offense but this kind of @!#$ really gets to me. Sure the TSA and other governmental agancys may have have imposed restrictions you and I don't like. I know all about them as I work at the airport for my second job.

If you don't think you have freedom here in the US then you obviously take it for granted and are unaware of just how bad it could be in other countrys. What is more is that our government will not stop you from moving. So if you don't like just STFU and GTFO!
No Offense but this kinda @!#$ really gets to me.

You want security? Are you willing to give up your freedoms to get it? STFU and move to China. Apparently that is more to your liking. This is America - LAND OF THE FREE. If you want to live in the land of the "safe and secure" - follow your own advice and GTFO!! Yes we are more free than some places, and yet we are less free than other places too. The bottom line is that we are no longer nearly as free as our forefathers intended(and for what they died for). If you want to waive those freedoms for your little false sense of security, then you are @!#$ting on the sacrifices of every man that has fought and died to protect them.

You care about the 2nd amendment right? Well why is that the only freedom that is important? (equally I ask liberals why that is the only freedom that isn't important to them - hypocrites on both ends). Yielding any of our freedoms or our way of life to terrorist(Isn't our freedom and our way of life what they where supposedly attacking us for?) - its basically paramount to waiving a white flag of surrender. People who want to give up ANY other their liberty for some false sense of safety are
PATHETIC ABJECT COWARDS. End of story.


H. L. Mencken wrote:The average man does not want to be free. He simply wants to be safe.

This describes far too many people(including many here) far too accurately.

H. L. Mencken wrote:I believe that liberty is the only genuinely valuable thing that men have invented, at least in the field of government, in a thousand years. I believe that it is better to be free than to be not free, even when the former is dangerous and the latter safe. I believe that the finest qualities of man can flourish only in free air – that progress made under the shadow of the policeman's club is false progress, and of no permanent value. I believe that any man who takes the liberty of another into his keeping is bound to become a tyrant, and that any man who yields up his liberty, in however slight the measure, is bound to become a slave.


Patrick Henry wrote:Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!

Patrick Henry FTW - that is what a real man sounds like.


Taetsch Z-24 wrote:7 years latter and all you @!#$ people can do it bitch

Christ.


Chris
7 years later and all people can do is cower in fear of bearded men in caves, so they need big government to protect them. And then of course 7 years later and we still have politicians(you know who) that milk the tragedies of that day (and the accompanying fear) for political gain. Welcome to post 9/11 America.



Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in
America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the
country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along,
whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist
dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the
leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and
denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the
same in any country. - Hermann Goring

Re: Dear Mr. Obama
Friday, September 12, 2008 1:48 AM on j-body.org
And furthermore you all you people - I got news for you. Someday you are going to die. Be it by terrorist attack, heart attack, car accident, or an Eskimo wielding a machete - you will @!#$ die. Now in the mean time - get over it, grow a pair, and live life on your own terms as a free man.

Also I realized further irony here - So the same people who want to keep their gun rights because they think they can't count on police(and by proxy the government) to keep them safe from everyday street thugs - but they want to give up other freedoms so the government can supposedly protect them from terrorists. Right...

Besides the absurdity of that concept alone, just how many people died on 9/11 versus how many people are killed by criminal violence? Hell, food poisoning killed 4 times as many people in 2001 as did terrorism. Just what ARE you scared of?




Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in
America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the
country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along,
whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist
dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the
leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and
denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the
same in any country. - Hermann Goring

Re: Dear Mr. Obama
Friday, September 12, 2008 2:16 AM on j-body.org
Maybe none of you have noticed, but WHY would any 'terrorist" have any need to attack you again ? They have already won by striking fear into every single person un intelligent enough to let the patriot act, and other such bills to pass in your Congress. They have restricted your freedoms, they have you in a state of fear. Why waste time, and have to go threw all the logistics to plan another attack ?


PS. If anyone is still going on about how the Ira war was a correct decision... For this one G.I. I will bet you 100 $ there are another 2000 Veterans ready to get in front of the camera and tell you how full of @!#$ he is.


l8ts.



My Cav
I give up...
i'm buying a VW those people love trees, so they should love eachother too... "Andy"
Re: Dear Mr. Obama
Friday, September 12, 2008 4:34 AM on j-body.org
Really want to bet that?

Chris



"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry


Re: Dear Mr. Obama
Friday, September 12, 2008 6:45 AM on j-body.org
Short Hand wrote:For this one G.I. I will bet you 100 $ there are another 2000 Veterans ready to get in front of the camera and tell you how full of @!#$ he is.
I hope that was sarcasm...




11 speaker JL Audio stereo setup for sale:
http://www.j-body.org/classifieds/audio/52021/

Re: Dear Mr. Obama
Friday, September 12, 2008 7:00 AM on j-body.org
Quote:

"Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither." - Benjamin Franklin


I think the original quote is...

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Essential Liberty and Freedom are not the same. I'm sure that the founding fathers (as have others) at times given up a few minor Freedoms in order to keep/maintain Liberty.


And here's a list of thwarted attacks,just incase anyone thinks giving up a few minor freedoms does nothing to further our Liberties.

The following is a list of known terror plots thwarted by the U.S. government since Sept. 11, 2001.
• December 2001, Richard Reid: British citizen attempted to ignite shoe bomb on flight from Paris to Miami.

• May 2002, Jose Padilla: American citizen accused of seeking radioactive-laced "dirty bomb" to use in an attack against Amrica. Padilla was convicted of conspiracy in August, 2007.

• September 2002, Lackawanna Six: American citizens of Yemeni origin convicted of supporting Al Qaeda after attending jihadist camp in Pakistan. Five of six were from Lackawanna, N.Y.

• May 2003, Iyman Faris: American citizen charged with plotting to use blowtorches to collapse the Brooklyn Bridge.

• June 2003, Virginia Jihad Network: Eleven men from Alexandria, Va., trained for jihad against American soldiers, convicted of violating the Neutrality Act, conspiracy.

• August 2004, Dhiren Barot: Indian-born leader of terror cell plotted bombings on financial centers (see additional images).

• August 2004, James Elshafay and Shahawar Matin Siraj: Sought to plant bomb at New York's Penn Station during the Republican National Convention.

• August 2004, Yassin Aref and Mohammed Hossain: Plotted to assassinate a Pakistani diplomat on American soil.

• June 2005, Father and son Umer Hayat and Hamid Hayat: Son convicted of attending terrorist training camp in Pakistan; father convicted of customs violation.

• August 2005, Kevin James, Levar Haley Washington, Gregory Vernon Patterson and Hammad Riaz Samana: Los Angeles homegrown terrorists who plotted to attack National Guard, LAX, two synagogues and Israeli consulate.

• December 2005, Michael Reynolds: Plotted to blow up natural gas refinery in Wyoming, the Transcontinental Pipeline, and a refinery in New Jersey. Reynolds was sentenced to 30 years in prison.

• February 2006, Mohammad Zaki Amawi, Marwan Othman El-Hindi and Zand Wassim Mazloum: Accused of providing material support to terrorists, making bombs for use in Iraq.

• April 2006, Syed Haris Ahmed and Ehsanul Islam Sadequee: Cased and videotaped the Capitol and World Bank for a terrorist organization.

• June 2006, Narseal Batiste, Patrick Abraham, Stanley Grant Phanor, Naudimar Herrera, Burson Augustin, Lyglenson Lemorin, and Rotschild Augstine: Accused of plotting to blow up the Sears Tower.

• July 2006, Assem Hammoud: Accused of plotting to bomb New York City train tunnels.

• August 2006, Liquid Explosives Plot: Thwarted plot to explode ten airliners over the United States.

• March 2007, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed: Mastermind of Sept. 11 and author of numerous plots confessed in court in March 2007 to planning to destroy skyscrapers in New York, Los Angeles and Chicago. Mohammedalso plotted to assassinate Pope John Paul II and former President Bill Clinton.

• May 2007, Fort Dix Plot: Six men accused of plotting to attack Fort Dix Army base in New Jersey. The plan included attacking and killing soldiers using assault rifles and grenades.

• June 2007, JFK Plot: Four men are accused of plotting to blow up fuel arteries that run through residential neighborhoods at JFK Airport in New York.

• September 2007, German authorities disrupt a terrorist cell that was planning attacks on military installations and facilities used by Americans in Germany. The Germans arrested three suspected members of the Islamic Jihad Union, a group that has links to Al Qaeda and supports Al Qaeda's global jihadist agenda.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Friday, September 12, 2008 7:10 AM


"The FACTS are always subject to CHANGE once the TRUTH is applied"
"In the entire history of man the only stupid questions are the ones that don't get asked"
Re: Dear Mr. Obama
Friday, September 12, 2008 7:16 AM on j-body.org
and please also list the ppl that are law abiding citizens that have been victimized by unconstitutional spying as a result of the patriot act



1989 Turbo Trans Am #82, 2007 Cobalt SS G85






Re: Dear Mr. Obama
Friday, September 12, 2008 8:42 AM on j-body.org
i don't understand you rodimus. in some threads you seem educated
in others, so strong in your beliefs you come off as arrogant and ignorant

God help us all

.



Re: Dear Mr. Obama
Friday, September 12, 2008 8:47 AM on j-body.org
Rodimus Prime wrote:and please also list the ppl that are law abiding citizens that have been victimized by unconstitutional spying as a result of the patriot act


None simply put if you have nothing to hise then it does not matter. It is not like they just say I think I will wire tap Joe Smith today. They have a good reason for going after the people they do. Then they have to deal with armchair critics like you. How would you feel if they had not done the some things because of whiners like you and a major attack that could have otherwise been prevented happened. Don't you believe in better safe than sorry.

You seriously need to ease up on the democratic montra spewing.



FORGET GIRLS GONE WILD WE HAVE GOVERNMENT SPENDING GONE WILD!

Re: Dear Mr. Obama
Friday, September 12, 2008 8:54 AM on j-body.org
Wade Jarvis wrote:
Rodimus Prime wrote:and please also list the ppl that are law abiding citizens that have been victimized by unconstitutional spying as a result of the patriot act


None simply put if you have nothing to hise then it does not matter. It is not like they just say I think I will wire tap Joe Smith today. They have a good reason for going after the people they do. Then they have to deal with armchair critics like you. How would you feel if they had not done the some things because of whiners like you and a major attack that could have otherwise been prevented happened. Don't you believe in better safe than sorry.

You seriously need to ease up on the democratic montra spewing.


About as much as you need to ease up on your Republican montra spewing. You are a hypocrite plain and simple.


KevinP (Stabby McShankyou) wrote:
and I'm NOT a pedo. everyone knows i've got a wheelchair fetish.


Re: Dear Mr. Obama
Friday, September 12, 2008 9:49 AM on j-body.org
You're all hypocrites (and I'm sure I am too), there's no avoiding it.

Wade, while I want to agree with the "if you have nothing to hide..." argument, I don't want this to turn into a case of "V for Vendetta", which seems to be the direction we're headed.




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Re: Dear Mr. Obama
Friday, September 12, 2008 10:42 AM on j-body.org
Rodimus Prime wrote:Yea we all are alot more free since 9/11 ......................

The only ppl I know in uniform are drunks that waive thier guns and badges around like they are jesus and deserve some sort of special treatment, not to mention all the military @!#$s that come into our store and want everything for free just because they are military.

Perhaps if our national guard was used to defend this country and help its own citizens during times of national disaster I would feel a bit more gratitude.
Even if you do't agree with the war you should at least respect the men and women in the military.

List the things that you, yourself have done to better this country. I'm sure nothing on your list (if you can even find a single thing) will ever even closely resemble pledging your life to protect this country. That's what these people do. You probably wouldn't let go of your Mt Dew, much less risk your life.


What have you done to better other things, like your state or local city or even people around you. Most likely the only thing you do that helps this country is pay taxes and I'm sure you bitch about that also.

.
Re: Dear Mr. Obama
Friday, September 12, 2008 11:55 AM on j-body.org
Bastardking3000 wrote:
FReQ Z (ikE-Zed) wrote:
they do deserve special treatment. they put their life on the line so you can sit here and @!#$ bitch about them.

read the sig. under the pic.
I agree that soldiers deserve our respect even if I don't respect their mission. They didn't start this war but they fight it bravely. However I must counter your sig -
Thomas Jefferson wrote:Dissent is the highest form of patriotism

and now now for
Wade Jarvis wrote:
protomec wrote:I did not watch either link.


And I am a true believer in the freedoms the constitution speaks of.

But as I am only a few hours past having to remove my clothing and open my baggage for search and inspection...
Because I was in the process of committing a crime, or at least I guess I had to be because the 4th amendment says I would not be going through that unless I was or had committed a crime...
And that crime, as it turns out (I had no idea it was one), was the intent to use a mass transportation system to travel from NC to MI...

I have to ask...


WHERE IS THIS FREEDOM YOU SPEAK OF ME ENJOYING?????




I may want to move to that country.


No offense but this kind of @!#$ really gets to me. Sure the TSA and other governmental agancys may have have imposed restrictions you and I don't like. I know all about them as I work at the airport for my second job.

If you don't think you have freedom here in the US then you obviously take it for granted and are unaware of just how bad it could be in other countrys. What is more is that our government will not stop you from moving. So if you don't like just STFU and GTFO!
No Offense but this kinda @!#$ really gets to me.

You want security? Are you willing to give up your freedoms to get it? STFU and move to China. Apparently that is more to your liking. This is America - LAND OF THE FREE. If you want to live in the land of the "safe and secure" - follow your own advice and GTFO!! Yes we are more free than some places, and yet we are less free than other places too. The bottom line is that we are no longer nearly as free as our forefathers intended(and for what they died for). If you want to waive those freedoms for your little false sense of security, then you are @!#$ting on the sacrifices of every man that has fought and died to protect them.

You care about the 2nd amendment right? Well why is that the only freedom that is important? (equally I ask liberals why that is the only freedom that isn't important to them - hypocrites on both ends). Yielding any of our freedoms or our way of life to terrorist(Isn't our freedom and our way of life what they where supposedly attacking us for?) - its basically paramount to waiving a white flag of surrender. People who want to give up ANY other their liberty for some false sense of safety are
PATHETIC ABJECT COWARDS. End of story.


H. L. Mencken wrote:The average man does not want to be free. He simply wants to be safe.

This describes far too many people(including many here) far too accurately.

H. L. Mencken wrote:I believe that liberty is the only genuinely valuable thing that men have invented, at least in the field of government, in a thousand years. I believe that it is better to be free than to be not free, even when the former is dangerous and the latter safe. I believe that the finest qualities of man can flourish only in free air – that progress made under the shadow of the policeman's club is false progress, and of no permanent value. I believe that any man who takes the liberty of another into his keeping is bound to become a tyrant, and that any man who yields up his liberty, in however slight the measure, is bound to become a slave.


Patrick Henry wrote:Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!

Patrick Henry FTW - that is what a real man sounds like.


Taetsch Z-24 wrote:7 years latter and all you @!#$ people can do it bitch

Christ.


Chris
7 years later and all people can do is cower in fear of bearded men in caves, so they need big government to protect them. And then of course 7 years later and we still have politicians(you know who) that milk the tragedies of that day (and the accompanying fear) for political gain. Welcome to post 9/11 America.



Bastardking
Calm down would you. You sound like you lumped me into a catagory I don't belong in. Would you have felt better if I said we have given up to much freedom. Would you feel better if I said I don't wan't, need, or trust the overprotective nanny like government we have to do it? Basically I agree with you on this. My only point was that things could be much worse so we should be thankful for the freedoms we do have.

And for the record I think I overreacted to Protomec. Please take this as my sincere apology. I can understand your frustration in being searched and limited ect ect.




FORGET GIRLS GONE WILD WE HAVE GOVERNMENT SPENDING GONE WILD!

Re: Dear Mr. Obama
Friday, September 12, 2008 1:53 PM on j-body.org
if you have nothing to hide....?
what is this, 1984?



Re: Dear Mr. Obama
Friday, September 12, 2008 2:34 PM on j-body.org
Have we been attacked on us soil seance?

seems to be working....

Chris




"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry


Re: Dear Mr. Obama
Friday, September 12, 2008 11:26 PM on j-body.org
john317(AKA Gary the Old guy) wrote:
Quote:

"Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither." - Benjamin Franklin


I think the original quote is...

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Essential Liberty and Freedom are not the same. I'm sure that the founding fathers (as have others) at times given up a few minor Freedoms in order to keep/maintain Liberty.
You are correct on the original wording however it kinda sounds like a Clinton-ion discussion of the meaning of the word "the." You know exactly what he meant and you are twisting it to meet your own ends. Your essentially saying that cars and automobiles are not really the same. Please...

And I'm sure what he meant in saying "essential liberties" instead of "liberties" is that all liberties are essential. Like if someone said "my beautiful wife" - does that somehow mean he also has an ugly wife? Probably not...

Wade Jarvis wrote:Bastardking
Calm down would you. You sound like you lumped me into a catagory I don't belong in. Would you have felt better if I said we have given up to much freedom. Would you feel better if I said I don't wan't, need, or trust the overprotective nanny like government we have to do it? Basically I agree with you on this. My only point was that things could be much worse so we should be thankful for the freedoms we do have.

And for the record I think I overreacted to Protomec. Please take this as my sincere apology. I can understand your frustration in being searched and limited ect ect.
Alright. No harm done. But I have to add...

Wade Jarvis wrote:None simply put if you have nothing to hide then it does not matter.

You know Nazi Germany and Socialist USSR said the same thing... That kinda talk is standard fair in any dictatorship.

Wade Jarvis wrote:You seriously need to ease up on the democratic montra spewing.

That also more closely falls under the category of "Libertarian mantra spewing" - and Libertarians USED TO have a home in the GOP. No more though. BTW I will look with interest at Bob Barr's campaign this year. He will have to perform a small miracle for me to support him over Obama, but I definitely like his message and I'd still be pretty happy if he won. We shall see...




Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in
America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the
country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along,
whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist
dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the
leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and
denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the
same in any country. - Hermann Goring

Re: Dear Mr. McCain
Friday, September 12, 2008 11:44 PM on j-body.org
Where do you stand this week?
http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/flipflops wrote:
National Security Policy

1. McCain thought Bush’s warrantless-wiretap program circumvented the law; now he believes the opposite.

2. McCain insisted that everyone, even “terrible killers,” “the worst kind of scum of humanity,” and detainees at Guantanamo Bay, “deserve to have some adjudication of their cases,” even if that means “releasing some of them.” McCain now believes the opposite.

3. He opposed indefinite detention of terrorist suspects. When the Supreme Court reached the same conclusion, he called it “one of the worst decisions in the history of this country.”

4. In February 2008, McCain reversed course on prohibiting waterboarding.

5. McCain was for closing the detention facility at Guantanamo Bay before he was against it.

6. When Barack Obama talked about going after terrorists in Pakistani mountains with predators, McCain criticized him for it. He’s since come to the opposite conclusion.

Foreign Policy

7. McCain was for kicking Russia out of the G8 before he was against it. Now, he’s for it again.

8. McCain supported moving “towards normalization of relations” with Cuba. Now he believes the opposite.

9. McCain believed the U.S. should engage in diplomacy with Hamas. Now he believes the opposite.

10. McCain believed the U.S. should engage in diplomacy with Syria. Now he believes the opposite.

11. McCain is both for and against a “rogue state rollback” as a focus of his foreign policy vision.

12. McCain used to champion the Law of the Sea convention, even volunteering to testify on the treaty’s behalf before a Senate committee. Now he opposes it.

13. McCain was against divestment from South Africa before he was for it.

Military Policy

14. McCain recently claimed that he was the “greatest critic” of Rumsfeld’s failed Iraq policy. In December 2003, McCain praised the same strategy as “a mission accomplished.” In March 2004, he said, “I’m confident we’re on the right course.” In December 2005, he said, “Overall, I think a year from now, we will have made a fair amount of progress if we stay the course.”

15. McCain has changed his mind about a long-term U.S. military presence in Iraq on multiple occasions, concluding, on multiple occasions, that a Korea-like presence is both a good and a bad idea.

16. McCain was against additional U.S. forces in Afghanistan before he was for it.

17. McCain said before the war in Iraq, “We will win this conflict. We will win it easily.” Four years later, McCain said he knew all along that the war in Iraq war was “probably going to be long and hard and tough.”

18. McCain has repeatedly said it’s a dangerous mistake to tell the “enemy” when U.S. troops would be out of Iraq. In May, McCain announced that most American troops would be home from Iraq by 2013.

19. McCain was against expanding the GI Bill before he was for it.

20. McCain staunchly opposed Obama’s Iraq withdrawal timetable, and even blasted Mitt Romney for having referenced the word during the GOP primaries. In July, after Iraqi officials endorsed Obama’s policy, McCain said a 16-month calendar sounds like “a pretty good timetable.”

Domestic Policy

21. McCain defended “privatizing” Social Security. Now he says he’s against privatization (though he actually still supports it.)

22. On Social Security, McCain said he would not, under any circumstances, raise taxes. Soon after, asked about a possible increase in the payroll tax, McCain said there’s “nothing that’s off the table.”

23. McCain wanted to change the Republican Party platform to protect abortion rights in cases of rape and incest. Now he doesn’t.

24. McCain supported storing spent nuclear fuel at Yucca Mountain in Nevada. Now he believes the opposite.

25. He argued the NRA should not have a role in the Republican Party’s policy making. Now he believes the opposite.

26. In 1998, he championed raising cigarette taxes to fund programs to cut underage smoking, insisting that it would prevent illnesses and provide resources for public health programs. Now, McCain opposes a $0.61-per-pack tax increase, won’t commit to supporting a regulation bill he’s co-sponsoring, and has hired Philip Morris’ former lobbyist as his senior campaign adviser.

27. McCain is both for and against earmarks for Arizona.

28. McCain’s first mortgage plan was premised on the notion that homeowners facing foreclosure shouldn’t be “rewarded” for acting “irresponsibly.” His second mortgage plan took largely the opposite position.

29. McCain went from saying gay marriage should be allowed, to saying gay marriage shouldn’t be allowed.

30. McCain opposed a holiday to honor Martin Luther King, Jr., before he supported it.

31. McCain was anti-ethanol. Now he’s pro-ethanol.

32. McCain was both for and against state promotion of the Confederate flag.

33. In 2005, McCain endorsed intelligent design creationism, a year later he said the opposite, and a few months after that, he was both for and against creationism at the same time.

34. And on gay adoption, McCain initially said he’d rather let orphans go without families, then his campaign reversed course, and soon after, McCain reversed back.

35. In the Senate, McCain opposed a variety of measures on equal pay for women, and endorsed the Supreme Court’s Ledbetter decision. In July, however, McCain said, “I’m committed to making sure that there’s equal pay for equal work. That … is my record and you can count on it.”

36. McCain was against fully funding the No Child Left Behind Act before he was for it.

37. McCain was for affirmative action before he was against it.

38. McCain said the Colorado River compact will “obviously” need to be “renegotiated.” Six days later, McCain said, “Let me be clear that I do not advocate renegotiation of the compact.”

Economic Policy

39. McCain was against Bush’s tax cuts for the very wealthy before he was for them.

40. John McCain initially argued that economics is not an area of expertise for him, saying, “I’m going to be honest: I know a lot less about economics than I do about military and foreign policy issues; I still need to be educated,” and “The issue of economics is not something I’ve understood as well as I should.” He now falsely denies ever having made these remarks and insists that he has a “very strong” understanding of economics.

41. McCain vowed, if elected, to balance the federal budget by the end of his first term. Soon after, he decided he would no longer even try to reach that goal. And soon after that, McCain abandoned his second position and went back to his first.

42. McCain said in 2005 that he opposed the tax cuts because they were “too tilted to the wealthy.” By 2007, he denied ever having said this, and falsely argued that he opposed the cuts because of increased government spending.

43. McCain thought the estate tax was perfectly fair. Now he believes the opposite.

44. McCain pledged in February 2008 that he would not, under any circumstances, raise taxes. Specifically, McCain was asked if he is a “‘read my lips’ candidate, no new taxes, no matter what?” referring to George H.W. Bush’s 1988 pledge. “No new taxes,” McCain responded. Two weeks later, McCain said, “I’m not making a ‘read my lips’ statement, in that I will not raise taxes.”

45. McCain has changed his entire economic worldview on multiple occasions.

46. McCain believes Americans are both better and worse off economically than they were before Bush took office.

47. McCain was against massive government bailouts of “big banks” that “act irresponsibly.” He then announced his support for a massive government bailout of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

Energy Policy

48. McCain supported the moratorium on coastal drilling ; now he’s against it.

49. McCain recently announced his strong opposition to a windfall-tax on oil company profits. Three weeks earlier, he was perfectly comfortable with the idea.

50. McCain endorsed a cap-and-trade policy with a mandatory emissions cap. In mid-June, McCain announced he wants the caps to voluntary.

51. McCain explained his belief that a temporary suspension of the federal gas tax would provide an immediate economic stimulus. Shortly thereafter, he argued the exact opposite.

52. McCain supported the Lieberman/Warner legislation to combat global warming. Now he doesn’t.

53. McCain was for national auto emissions standards before he was against them.

Immigration Policy

54. McCain was a co-sponsor of the DREAM Act, which would grant legal status to illegal immigrants’ kids who graduate from high school. In 2007, he announced his opposition to the bill. In 2008, McCain switched back.

55. On immigration policy in general, McCain announced in February 2008 that he would vote against his own bill.

56. In April, McCain promised voters that he would secure the borders “before proceeding to other reform measures.” Two months later, he abandoned his public pledge, pretended that he’d never made the promise in the first place, and vowed that a comprehensive immigration reform policy has always been, and would always be, his “top priority.”

Judicial Policy and the Rule of Law

57. McCain said he would “not impose a litmus test on any nominee.” He used to promise the opposite.

58. McCain’s position was that the telecoms should be forced to explain their role in the administration’s warrantless surveillance program as a condition for retroactive immunity. He used to believe the opposite.

59. McCain went from saying he would not support repeal of Roe v. Wade to saying the exact opposite.

60. In June, McCain rejected the idea of a trial for Osama bin Laden, and thought Obama’s reference to Nuremberg was a misread of history. A month later, McCain argued the exact opposite position.

61. In June, McCain described the Supreme Court’s decision in Boumediene v. Bush was “one of the worst decisions in the history of this country.” In August, he reversed course.

Campaign, Ethics, and Lobbying Reform

62. McCain supported his own lobbying-reform legislation from 1997. Now he doesn’t.

63. In 2006, McCain sponsored legislation to require grassroots lobbying coalitions to reveal their financial donors. In 2007, after receiving “feedback” on the proposal, McCain told far-right activist groups that he opposes his own measure.

64. McCain supported a campaign-finance bill, which bore his name, on strengthening the public-financing system. In June 2007, he abandoned his own legislation.

65. In May 2008, McCain approved a ban on lobbyists working for his campaign. In July 2008, his campaign reversed course and said lobbyists could work for his campaign.

Politics and Associations

66. McCain wanted political support from radical televangelist John Hagee. Now he doesn’t. (He also believes his endorsement from Hagee was both a good and bad idea.)

67. McCain wanted political support from radical televangelist Rod Parsley. Now he doesn’t.

68. McCain says he considered and did not consider joining John Kerry’s Democratic ticket in 2004.

69. McCain is both for and against attacking Barack Obama over his former pastor at his former church.

70. McCain criticized TV preacher Jerry Falwell as “an agent of intolerance” in 2002, but then decided to cozy up to the man who said Americans “deserved” the 9/11 attacks.

71. In 2000, McCain accused Texas businessmen Sam and Charles Wyly of being corrupt, spending “dirty money” to help finance Bush’s presidential campaign. McCain not only filed a complaint against the Wylys for allegedly violating campaign finance law, he also lashed out at them publicly. In April, McCain reached out to the Wylys for support.

72. McCain was against presidential candidates campaigning at Bob Jones University before he was for it.

73. McCain decided in 2000 that he didn’t want anything to do with former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, believing he “would taint the image of the ‘Straight Talk Express.’” Kissinger is now the Honorary Co-Chair for his presidential campaign in New York.

74. McCain believed powerful right-wing activist/lobbyist Grover Norquist was “corrupt, a shill for dictators, and (with just a dose of sarcasm) Jack Abramoff’s gay lover.” McCain now considers Norquist a key political ally.

75. McCain was for presidential candidates giving speeches in foreign countries before he was against it.

76. McCain has been both for and against considering a pro-choice running mate for the Republican presidential ticket.
One of the downsides to having been around the block 20+ years I suppose.




11 speaker JL Audio stereo setup for sale:
http://www.j-body.org/classifieds/audio/52021/


Re: Dear Mr. McCain
Friday, September 12, 2008 11:51 PM on j-body.org
Sorry, forgot to add this:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/flip-o-meter/
Good site, lots of info on all involved.




11 speaker JL Audio stereo setup for sale:
http://www.j-body.org/classifieds/audio/52021/

Re: Dear Mr. McCain
Saturday, September 13, 2008 12:37 AM on j-body.org
I think that everyone's opinion of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan may change once the soldiers going off to fight them start being too young to remember September 11th. Could happen as soon as 2017, and believe me we're still going to be fighting even then.
Re: Dear Mr. McCain
Saturday, September 13, 2008 1:29 AM on j-body.org
OHV notec wrote:Where do you stand this week?
http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/flipflops wrote:
National Security Policy

1. McCain thought Bush’s warrantless-wiretap program circumvented the law; now he believes the opposite.

2. McCain insisted that everyone, even “terrible killers,” “the worst kind of scum of humanity,” and detainees at Guantanamo Bay, “deserve to have some adjudication of their cases,” even if that means “releasing some of them.” McCain now believes the opposite.

3. He opposed indefinite detention of terrorist suspects. When the Supreme Court reached the same conclusion, he called it “one of the worst decisions in the history of this country.”

4. In February 2008, McCain reversed course on prohibiting waterboarding.

5. McCain was for closing the detention facility at Guantanamo Bay before he was against it.

6. When Barack Obama talked about going after terrorists in Pakistani mountains with predators, McCain criticized him for it. He’s since come to the opposite conclusion.

Foreign Policy

7. McCain was for kicking Russia out of the G8 before he was against it. Now, he’s for it again.

8. McCain supported moving “towards normalization of relations” with Cuba. Now he believes the opposite.

9. McCain believed the U.S. should engage in diplomacy with Hamas. Now he believes the opposite.

10. McCain believed the U.S. should engage in diplomacy with Syria. Now he believes the opposite.

11. McCain is both for and against a “rogue state rollback” as a focus of his foreign policy vision.

12. McCain used to champion the Law of the Sea convention, even volunteering to testify on the treaty’s behalf before a Senate committee. Now he opposes it.

13. McCain was against divestment from South Africa before he was for it.

Military Policy

14. McCain recently claimed that he was the “greatest critic” of Rumsfeld’s failed Iraq policy. In December 2003, McCain praised the same strategy as “a mission accomplished.” In March 2004, he said, “I’m confident we’re on the right course.” In December 2005, he said, “Overall, I think a year from now, we will have made a fair amount of progress if we stay the course.”

15. McCain has changed his mind about a long-term U.S. military presence in Iraq on multiple occasions, concluding, on multiple occasions, that a Korea-like presence is both a good and a bad idea.

16. McCain was against additional U.S. forces in Afghanistan before he was for it.

17. McCain said before the war in Iraq, “We will win this conflict. We will win it easily.” Four years later, McCain said he knew all along that the war in Iraq war was “probably going to be long and hard and tough.”

18. McCain has repeatedly said it’s a dangerous mistake to tell the “enemy” when U.S. troops would be out of Iraq. In May, McCain announced that most American troops would be home from Iraq by 2013.

19. McCain was against expanding the GI Bill before he was for it.

20. McCain staunchly opposed Obama’s Iraq withdrawal timetable, and even blasted Mitt Romney for having referenced the word during the GOP primaries. In July, after Iraqi officials endorsed Obama’s policy, McCain said a 16-month calendar sounds like “a pretty good timetable.”

Domestic Policy

21. McCain defended “privatizing” Social Security. Now he says he’s against privatization (though he actually still supports it.)

22. On Social Security, McCain said he would not, under any circumstances, raise taxes. Soon after, asked about a possible increase in the payroll tax, McCain said there’s “nothing that’s off the table.”

23. McCain wanted to change the Republican Party platform to protect abortion rights in cases of rape and incest. Now he doesn’t.

24. McCain supported storing spent nuclear fuel at Yucca Mountain in Nevada. Now he believes the opposite.

25. He argued the NRA should not have a role in the Republican Party’s policy making. Now he believes the opposite.

26. In 1998, he championed raising cigarette taxes to fund programs to cut underage smoking, insisting that it would prevent illnesses and provide resources for public health programs. Now, McCain opposes a $0.61-per-pack tax increase, won’t commit to supporting a regulation bill he’s co-sponsoring, and has hired Philip Morris’ former lobbyist as his senior campaign adviser.

27. McCain is both for and against earmarks for Arizona.

28. McCain’s first mortgage plan was premised on the notion that homeowners facing foreclosure shouldn’t be “rewarded” for acting “irresponsibly.” His second mortgage plan took largely the opposite position.

29. McCain went from saying gay marriage should be allowed, to saying gay marriage shouldn’t be allowed.

30. McCain opposed a holiday to honor Martin Luther King, Jr., before he supported it.

31. McCain was anti-ethanol. Now he’s pro-ethanol.

32. McCain was both for and against state promotion of the Confederate flag.

33. In 2005, McCain endorsed intelligent design creationism, a year later he said the opposite, and a few months after that, he was both for and against creationism at the same time.

34. And on gay adoption, McCain initially said he’d rather let orphans go without families, then his campaign reversed course, and soon after, McCain reversed back.

35. In the Senate, McCain opposed a variety of measures on equal pay for women, and endorsed the Supreme Court’s Ledbetter decision. In July, however, McCain said, “I’m committed to making sure that there’s equal pay for equal work. That … is my record and you can count on it.”

36. McCain was against fully funding the No Child Left Behind Act before he was for it.

37. McCain was for affirmative action before he was against it.

38. McCain said the Colorado River compact will “obviously” need to be “renegotiated.” Six days later, McCain said, “Let me be clear that I do not advocate renegotiation of the compact.”

Economic Policy

39. McCain was against Bush’s tax cuts for the very wealthy before he was for them.

40. John McCain initially argued that economics is not an area of expertise for him, saying, “I’m going to be honest: I know a lot less about economics than I do about military and foreign policy issues; I still need to be educated,” and “The issue of economics is not something I’ve understood as well as I should.” He now falsely denies ever having made these remarks and insists that he has a “very strong” understanding of economics.

41. McCain vowed, if elected, to balance the federal budget by the end of his first term. Soon after, he decided he would no longer even try to reach that goal. And soon after that, McCain abandoned his second position and went back to his first.

42. McCain said in 2005 that he opposed the tax cuts because they were “too tilted to the wealthy.” By 2007, he denied ever having said this, and falsely argued that he opposed the cuts because of increased government spending.

43. McCain thought the estate tax was perfectly fair. Now he believes the opposite.

44. McCain pledged in February 2008 that he would not, under any circumstances, raise taxes. Specifically, McCain was asked if he is a “‘read my lips’ candidate, no new taxes, no matter what?” referring to George H.W. Bush’s 1988 pledge. “No new taxes,” McCain responded. Two weeks later, McCain said, “I’m not making a ‘read my lips’ statement, in that I will not raise taxes.”

45. McCain has changed his entire economic worldview on multiple occasions.

46. McCain believes Americans are both better and worse off economically than they were before Bush took office.

47. McCain was against massive government bailouts of “big banks” that “act irresponsibly.” He then announced his support for a massive government bailout of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

Energy Policy

48. McCain supported the moratorium on coastal drilling ; now he’s against it.

49. McCain recently announced his strong opposition to a windfall-tax on oil company profits. Three weeks earlier, he was perfectly comfortable with the idea.

50. McCain endorsed a cap-and-trade policy with a mandatory emissions cap. In mid-June, McCain announced he wants the caps to voluntary.

51. McCain explained his belief that a temporary suspension of the federal gas tax would provide an immediate economic stimulus. Shortly thereafter, he argued the exact opposite.

52. McCain supported the Lieberman/Warner legislation to combat global warming. Now he doesn’t.

53. McCain was for national auto emissions standards before he was against them.

Immigration Policy

54. McCain was a co-sponsor of the DREAM Act, which would grant legal status to illegal immigrants’ kids who graduate from high school. In 2007, he announced his opposition to the bill. In 2008, McCain switched back.

55. On immigration policy in general, McCain announced in February 2008 that he would vote against his own bill.

56. In April, McCain promised voters that he would secure the borders “before proceeding to other reform measures.” Two months later, he abandoned his public pledge, pretended that he’d never made the promise in the first place, and vowed that a comprehensive immigration reform policy has always been, and would always be, his “top priority.”

Judicial Policy and the Rule of Law

57. McCain said he would “not impose a litmus test on any nominee.” He used to promise the opposite.

58. McCain’s position was that the telecoms should be forced to explain their role in the administration’s warrantless surveillance program as a condition for retroactive immunity. He used to believe the opposite.

59. McCain went from saying he would not support repeal of Roe v. Wade to saying the exact opposite.

60. In June, McCain rejected the idea of a trial for Osama bin Laden, and thought Obama’s reference to Nuremberg was a misread of history. A month later, McCain argued the exact opposite position.

61. In June, McCain described the Supreme Court’s decision in Boumediene v. Bush was “one of the worst decisions in the history of this country.” In August, he reversed course.

Campaign, Ethics, and Lobbying Reform

62. McCain supported his own lobbying-reform legislation from 1997. Now he doesn’t.

63. In 2006, McCain sponsored legislation to require grassroots lobbying coalitions to reveal their financial donors. In 2007, after receiving “feedback” on the proposal, McCain told far-right activist groups that he opposes his own measure.

64. McCain supported a campaign-finance bill, which bore his name, on strengthening the public-financing system. In June 2007, he abandoned his own legislation.

65. In May 2008, McCain approved a ban on lobbyists working for his campaign. In July 2008, his campaign reversed course and said lobbyists could work for his campaign.

Politics and Associations

66. McCain wanted political support from radical televangelist John Hagee. Now he doesn’t. (He also believes his endorsement from Hagee was both a good and bad idea.)

67. McCain wanted political support from radical televangelist Rod Parsley. Now he doesn’t.

68. McCain says he considered and did not consider joining John Kerry’s Democratic ticket in 2004.

69. McCain is both for and against attacking Barack Obama over his former pastor at his former church.

70. McCain criticized TV preacher Jerry Falwell as “an agent of intolerance” in 2002, but then decided to cozy up to the man who said Americans “deserved” the 9/11 attacks.

71. In 2000, McCain accused Texas businessmen Sam and Charles Wyly of being corrupt, spending “dirty money” to help finance Bush’s presidential campaign. McCain not only filed a complaint against the Wylys for allegedly violating campaign finance law, he also lashed out at them publicly. In April, McCain reached out to the Wylys for support.

72. McCain was against presidential candidates campaigning at Bob Jones University before he was for it.

73. McCain decided in 2000 that he didn’t want anything to do with former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, believing he “would taint the image of the ‘Straight Talk Express.’” Kissinger is now the Honorary Co-Chair for his presidential campaign in New York.

74. McCain believed powerful right-wing activist/lobbyist Grover Norquist was “corrupt, a shill for dictators, and (with just a dose of sarcasm) Jack Abramoff’s gay lover.” McCain now considers Norquist a key political ally.

75. McCain was for presidential candidates giving speeches in foreign countries before he was against it.

76. McCain has been both for and against considering a pro-choice running mate for the Republican presidential ticket.
One of the downsides to having been around the block 20+ years I suppose.

Yep, this man is the Republican John Kerry - heck he is more John Kerry than John Kerry. The parallels don't end on the flip-flop.

1. Both Vietnam veterans. In 2004 Republicans unfairly and very inaccurately @!#$ on Kerry's war record yet are appalled when 1/100th as much scrutiny comes to McCain's record. Heroes they may both be, but fighting in a civil war doesn't automatically prepare you for, nor entitle you to be leader of the free world.
2. Both are fabulously wealthy - not on their own laurels but because they married into big money families. Remember when Kerry was ridiculed for this? "Kerry 57" ring a bell?
3. Both of them ran/is running on an empty campaign that is at the core - "Look, I'm not that guy." Most of Kerry's supporters where just anti-Bush(myself included), and McCain's supporters are mostly just anti-Obama. The biggest difference is that Obama is hated BEFORE he has a chance to @!#$ up anything, and Bush was hated AFTER having done so.

I'm sure as the campaign carries on, I'll notice plenty more similarities.




Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in
America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the
country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along,
whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist
dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the
leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and
denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the
same in any country. - Hermann Goring

Re: Dear Mr. McCain
Saturday, September 13, 2008 5:25 AM on j-body.org
You should visit D.C and take a look at kerrys original DD214

sure as hell was not an honorable discharge... in fact, he could have been tried for treason.

No one liked him before the race for president because of THAT. He did not get a honorable discharge until carter gave all the @!#$ draft dodgers amnesty.

Chris





"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry


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