This whole bad economy thing is a LIE - Page 4 - Politics and War Forum

Forum Post / Reply
You must log in before you can post or reply to messages.
Re: This whole bad economy thing is a LIE
Tuesday, April 21, 2009 3:58 AM on j-body.org
ThatGuy85 wrote:

Err, both the chicken and egg are mutually dependent on one another.

Penalize or overcompensate either side and you'll see a collapse.


People can argue left and right about chickens and eggs but the fact of the matter is that this is true.


-Markus
2002 Yellow Cavalier LS Sport
Check it out! --> Flickr


Re: This whole bad economy thing is a LIE
Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:16 AM on j-body.org
Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:

sndsgood wrote:

your right they are dependant, but if you have a person with no money, (unemployed person) and a person with money that can start a company to make a job for the unemployed person to work at, then you have a solution to the problem. taxing the person with the money is not going to help the situation. now the person with the money just holds onto his money instead of starting that company. so the company doesnt get built and the unemployed person stays unemployed.


Love the scenarios you that position one side and the other. Worst case for one side, and optimistic and established for the other. Brilliant way for you prove your point.


i work in credit in private banking and deal with wealthy inviduals on a daily basis.....what sndsgood is saying is true.
people are not spending their money just to have it taxed away.

in regards to rodimus:
michigan unemployment is at 12%?? bad economy is a lie? 5 of my friends are unemployed....but its a lie?
the house i live in is in foreclosure because the owner lost his job.....the house across the street is foreclosed on, in fact, 3 houses on my street are foreclosed.....but i guess its all a lie

.

michigan sucks btw

.




Re: This whole bad economy thing is a LIE
Friday, May 29, 2009 6:45 AM on j-body.org
It's a lie? You've been listening to Rushie lately?

I'm no liberal, I'm pretty hard right, which is why I didn't vote R or D this time around.

What I saw from Clinton, Bush and continue to see from Obama is this:

1. Ignoring current regulations and laws.
2. Repealing regulations they cannot ignore (Glass-Steagall).
3. Letting wall street go into a superheated frenzy.
4. Claim the system is broken.
5. Do nothing to fix the root of the problem
6. Use the "crisis" to make permanent, unprecedented power grabs.

The recession, or depression is REAL, and the idiot with his teleprompter is just making things worse. He's putting our country on an express train straight to socialist hell, and everyone's content to let him do whatever to "fix" the economy whether he has the authority to do this or not.

Three of five major investment banks, some of which have been around for more than a century are now DEAD.

Two of our three automakers are ZOMBIES, and the other is so intertwined with foreign companies, it's hardly American anymore.

Unemployment numbers are screaming.

If one particular Starbucks near you seems to be busy, it's because it's not one of the 600 across this country that have been shut down.

I'd strongly suggest you read up on what's going on, and I don't mean watching CNBC.

Start here: http://market-ticker.org/

You have to be able to see things beyond your own nose. Once every moron realizes this isn't an imaginary crisis, it will be too late to prepare. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad so many idiots have their heads up their asses about this. The bear will eat them first. The only thing I'm worried about is Obama stepping in and putting a bandaid on everything, helping the morons and screwing the prudent. After all, morons are his base.




2002 Cavalier 2200 5spd

Re: This whole bad economy thing is a LIE
Saturday, May 30, 2009 1:45 AM on j-body.org
SNDSGOOD.... I understand what your saying..... but here is the problem..... Even if someone with money started a buisness and hired people to create jobs.... the problem is finding people to buy the product in question in order to support the company.... Now a really good businessman could probably find a product that other people with money didnt need but would buy.... but not on a mass enough scale to really matter. There are just not enough people out there to but the product.

The company I work for is directly dependent on the economy the same way yours is..... you work in construction..... the company I work for fabricates the glass.. I saw a small spike a month ago and where running steady (about 70% where we really need to be after having 2 layoffs)... and now things have slowed down again.... and those of us left lucky enough to have jobs (we layed off almost a thousand people so far) are having our hours vut to a 34 hour pay period.... This royally sucks donkey balls..... I just thank god that I have been smart enough with money the last few years and can budget myself to get through this as long as it doesnt get much worse...

But I'm significantly cutting back.... and a lot of people with these less hours that are barely living paycheck from paycheck....... must of them because they bought a bunch of crap they dont need with credit (wich is a huge reason we are in the mess we're in among a lot of other things)...... will suddenly see a drop in income to the point that they cant pay all there bills..... And when we cut back to save ourselves.... the businesses we buy from or do buisness with suffer..... and have to cut back..... then thier employees suffer and they also have to cut back business with other businesses..... and so on and so on until it makes a giant circle and starts spreading like wildfire...

I KNOW THIS IS LONG BUT PLEASE READ THIS

What started all this...

Over the years.... gas prices (bear with me) started going up higher and higher... cost all americans more money and significantly hurting the overhead of businesses from the cost of diesel and gasoline they use to move product.

While this was going on (although slowly) in the early 90's the government enacted the COMMUNITY REINVESTMENT ACT wich forced banks to give high risk people loans for houses or suffer stringent consequences.. these loans became known as sub prime loans.... they had variable interest rates that started out low and looked good.... and people where stupid enough to believe the bank when they told them they could afford it.... Along with the community reinvestment act came 2 major government run banks Called Freddy Mack and Franny may (I think that was there names Im having a hard time remembering atm).... which became to be known as Fanny and Freddie..

These "banks" where tasked with running these sub prime loans..... but instead.... sold the dept to other banks..... wich for quite awhile.... it all worked...

Everything seemed fine for over a decade.... people where happy and continually and foolishly drove themselves into more and more dept over the years with the belief that they could afford it..

Than the oil industry and the banks that purchased these sub prime loans got greedy..

The oil industry suddenly jacked the price of oil up (using the "war on terror" and an excuse) to start making unheard of profits from the american people.... and the government did nothing to stop it. This alone wasnt a huge deal because people managed.... although it put companies on a tighter budget and more sesitive in fluctuations of income....

Then while all this gas pricing crap was going on..... the banks that decided to buy these sub prime loans figured "hey lest take advantage of these adjustable interest rates and make a crap load of money". Interest rates shot up from the range of 3% to in some extreme case around 30%.... and they did this is mass..... Suddenly millions of people could not afford there mortgages any more.... and one by one started filing bankruptcy... and with all the money being spent trying to keep there homes.... they started defaulting on the other various loans they had on other things as well.. even not paying utility bills in some cases..

This sent a ripple effect across the nation..... and suddenly mass amounts of banks that where seeing a steady income from loans saw a significant decrease.... and other businesses across the nation saw significant decreases as well because people where becoming homeless and not spending money... And since these businesses where not ready for such a sudden change in income..... especially with the high fuel prices... they had to start cutting back a little.

Then banks starting going under because of all the defaulted loans.... when this happened.... the banks that where still open stopped lending money to large amounts of businesses in fear of going under themselves... Now most "BIG" fortune 500 type businesses rely on constantly borrowing and paying money to banks in order to do business with eachother.... and with the trading stopped or significantly lowerd... a lot of buisness could not stay afloat causing more people to loose thier jobs.... and not find new ones because this was happening everywhere.... then a lot of them started defaulting on there mortgages and loans because they had no income and it eventually started this viscous circle of unpaid debt, unemployment, and significantly reduced production from businesses that we see today.

Now businesses are resulting to raising there prices on everything causing an ever increasing inflation rate while people are making less money...... this is a very bad thing.

And almost NOTHING our government has done..... has fixed this problem.... they just keep re-doing the same things and making things worse... we need to "reverse" all the things we can that caused this.... at least as a start...


Sorry if that was a little long.... its just important that people understand..



We need to





Re: This whole bad economy thing is a LIE
Saturday, May 30, 2009 4:49 PM on j-body.org
here you go weebe, this is direclty related to my field. you can do two things. you can cut taxes to the rich to help them build or give to the poor. right now the econemy is bad. i didnt really need a history lesson. heres where were at. the people with money are afraid to spend their money, the econemy is bad so all construction has stopped. now. obama wants to just tax the people with money, wants to help out the poor. who are the poor. the poor are all the construction people who can't get a job because construction is stopped. give them money, great are they going to spend it? no they are out of work so they will use it to pay bills. to keep themselves alive. how about we dont tax the rich.lessen the burden on them. their sphincters open up and they go ahead with their new buildings, now you need architects laboreres engineers, sprinkler fitters, duct guys drywallers to build your building, so you hire up all those out of work workers. so now these people have a job to go to so money is coming to them and they can go out and spend the money.


people arn't buying product because they dont have a job. give them a job and they have money to buy the product. if there is no product, giving money for people to buy something that isnt there is worthless. let the guy who has the money build the building which requires workers, open the store which requires workes, and now you have everyone employed and making money.


the money is out there, but the rich right now are to scared to spend it. the rich closing their pocket books out of fear is what has caused so much layoffs in the first place.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/sndsgood/ https://www.facebook.com/#!/Square1Photography
Re: This whole bad economy thing is a LIE
Saturday, May 30, 2009 6:41 PM on j-body.org
^^^ The history lesson wasnt for you.... it was for the other people that have no idea whats going on.... sorry if you thought I was talking down to you.... I didnt mean it that way.

And I agree.... we need to create a need for more jobs..... we just need tp help the right "rich" people... and find a way to do it on a mass enough scale.

And to the OP

Cell phones are not recession proof... nothing really is..... and Im pretty sure you dont have a union at a cell phone place.... so go ahead and strike.... they'll fire you all faster than you can blink and hire new people just waiting for a job.

Even if you did have a union.... they would just hire scabs that would end up being there almost indefinitey...





Re: This whole bad economy thing is a LIE
Saturday, May 30, 2009 9:51 PM on j-body.org
sndsgood wrote:

here you go weebe, this is direclty related to my field. you can do two things. you can cut taxes to the rich to help them build or give to the poor. right now the econemy is bad. i didnt really need a history lesson. heres where were at. the people with money are afraid to spend their money, the econemy is bad so all construction has stopped. now. obama wants to just tax the people with money, wants to help out the poor. who are the poor. the poor are all the construction people who can't get a job because construction is stopped. give them money, great are they going to spend it? no they are out of work so they will use it to pay bills. to keep themselves alive. how about we dont tax the rich.lessen the burden on them. their sphincters open up and they go ahead with their new buildings, now you need architects laboreres engineers, sprinkler fitters, duct guys drywallers to build your building, so you hire up all those out of work workers. so now these people have a job to go to so money is coming to them and they can go out and spend the money.


people arn't buying product because they dont have a job. give them a job and they have money to buy the product. if there is no product, giving money for people to buy something that isnt there is worthless. let the guy who has the money build the building which requires workers, open the store which requires workes, and now you have everyone employed and making money.


the money is out there, but the rich right now are to scared to spend it. the rich closing their pocket books out of fear is what has caused so much layoffs in the first place.


The problem with giving money to the rich is this - they might have more to spend/invest as you say(assuming that many of them didn't already), but having the money to do so does not automatically mean that they will do so - they will only do so if their is money to be made. You are right that they are afraid to invest currently - afraid that they will not get a proper return on their investment. The tax thing adds to this but is not the main issue. Since taxes are waged on profits not net income - if your business isn't making money then it doesn't really matter what your tax rate is. No matter how much money you pump into the hands of the wealthy - if consumers have no money then there is no need to invest in a business to collect the money (that your customers don't have).

For most businesses - the vast majority of your end customers are the lower/mid income class(since they make up most of the population). If they have money - you have a reason to invest - you want their money. But only a fool would invest money in a business knowing full well that their customer can't buy their product - no matter how much extra money that person might have. Lower income people will spend every dollar you give them, and to a lessor extent so will the middle class. Anything money the lower and middle class get will go to the upper class in the end. But by giving it directly the end recipient - you basically eliminate motivation to invest.

Quote:

no they are out of work so they will use it to pay bills. to keep themselves alive.


Even if people spend some of that money on bills/necessities - utility companies, food producers, telephone companies, hospitals/pharmacies, etc - these are all businesses too. These businesses also employ people and make their investors money. It is not a bad thing for people to pay their bills. I'm not sure where people get the idea that this is somehow bad for the economy - yet spending money anywhere else is some how better. Also remember that another important bill is your house payment - people loosing their houses being the main weight over our banking system's neck.

With foreclosures that never end - the credit situation cannot improve and thus companies are forced to cut back(as Weeble mentioned). That affects the buying power of their employees and thus sales in every business those employees would otherwise patronize. Its a downward spiral that starts with foreclosures. No, people paying their bills first... is what we need most of all.

Quote:

obama wants to just tax the people with money,
The only thing proposed thus far is a return to Clinton era tax levels(which weren't that much higher and certainly where not oppressive). Anything else you may have heard is pure speculation. It a completely artificial panic with no substance outside of fear. Wait til something to the contrary happens - that's all I'm saying. Unfortunately - even unfounded fears have real world implications when investors/etc believe as such.

I'm not really such a fan of stimulus checks as I am of putting people to work. For one - you get something done for your money. Second, people get to go home feeling they've earned their pay instead of just getting used to handouts. IMO this system should replace welfare entirely except for those who are physically unable(as verified by a doctor) to work. Because these people have money now, they will spend it and this helps businesses all around. As those businesses rebound, their their employees should get their hours/jobs back, those employees have more to spend - its an upward spiral. Investors once again see a return on their investment - which both helps the wealthy and encourages them to invest - far more than a simple tax break.. A rising tide lifts all ships.





Re: This whole bad economy thing is a LIE
Saturday, May 30, 2009 10:10 PM on j-body.org
well i spoke too soon my dad just got his hours cut big time, only working 3 out of 4 weeks a month for june and nothing as of july so far



1989 Turbo Trans Am #82, 2007 Cobalt SS G85





Re: This whole bad economy thing is a LIE
Saturday, May 30, 2009 10:17 PM on j-body.org
Rodimus Prime wrote:

well i spoke too soon my dad just got his hours cut big time, only working 3 out of 4 weeks a month for june and nothing as of july so far
Or so HE told you...

Dude, your dad is in on the conspiracy. Trust no one...







Re: This whole bad economy thing is a LIE
Sunday, May 31, 2009 5:51 AM on j-body.org
"I'm not really such a fan of stimulus checks as I am of putting people to work. For one - you get something done for your money. Second, people get to go home feeling they've earned their pay instead of just getting used to handouts. IMO this system should replace welfare entirely except for those who are physically unable(as verified by a doctor) to work. Because these people have money now, they will spend it and this helps businesses all around. As those businesses rebound, their their employees should get their hours/jobs back, those employees have more to spend - its an upward spiral. Investors once again see a return on their investment - which both helps the wealthy and encourages them to invest - far more than a simple tax break.. A rising tide lifts all ships."




you said it best right there, get the people jobs, they feeel better about therseleves. they become more reliable because a paycheck every week is more consistant then a check for the govermet and will last allot longer then a goverment check. here's the thing, the poor, they get a check, they spend it their broke again. the rich, allot of them have all this extra money, so they can afford to start the business and hold out a bit till the money starts flowing, but they are just scared to spend it. you said everything is speculation and artificial panic, but heres the thing, wether its artificial, fake, made up or what not, its still there and its still caused the rich to close their pocket books to find out whats going on. you need to calm them down. artificial speculation is just as bad as real speculation. tell a kid there a loser enough and eventully they will beleive it.


the econemy and housing and all of that has played a large role in whats going on. but that speculation has also caused the pocketbooks to close because everyone with money is just sitting back, waiting to see whats going to happen. fears of losing tax incentives or paying more taxes wether real or just speculation is a big issue. im not saying the govement should cut checks for the rich, im just saying they need to not try and tax them to death to get money, thats not going to get them to open their wallets, it will cause them to cut back more and put more people out of work. things like cutting tax breaks for any company who ships jobs overseas. sounds nice but if its a company who maybe has 5 buildings overseas and 20 in the us. killing of their tax breaks causing them to spend more money will likekly cause them to shutdown more buildins in the us and send a few more overseas to balance out that cost. wether its real or speculation doesnt matter at this point, its the fear that have caused lots to pull back.





as for the people paying their bills first i wasnt meaning that it was a bad thing, its the majority of peoples problem because they can't live within their means. but what i was meaning is, if you have a job and are getting a check every week you will pay your bills and start to spend your money on extra things, helping out the whole spectrum of business's, if your out of work and just given some money from goverment, your going to hopefully pay your bills and then keep any extra in the bank for next month's bills. your only going to help out a small sector of business. if im working, im paying bills, groceries, gas, maybe getting a new game for the ps3, ro going to a movie or a new cd or some new clothes. if im out of work, and just getting some goverment money i can gaurentee the only thing im using that money on it to survive and pay my mortgage.



http://www.flickr.com/photos/sndsgood/ https://www.facebook.com/#!/Square1Photography
Re: This whole bad economy thing is a LIE
Sunday, May 31, 2009 6:10 AM on j-body.org
Rodimus Prime wrote:

well i spoke too soon my dad just got his hours cut big time, only working 3 out of 4 weeks a month for june and nothing as of july so far


its all lies man. LIES!!!



Im a Xbox 360 fanboy...and damn proud of it!!

Re: This whole bad economy thing is a LIE
Sunday, May 31, 2009 8:51 AM on j-body.org
sndsgood wrote:

here you go weebe, this is direclty related to my field. you can do two things. you can cut taxes to the rich to help them build or give to the poor. right now the econemy is bad. i didnt really need a history lesson. heres where were at. the people with money are afraid to spend their money, the econemy is bad so all construction has stopped. now. obama wants to just tax the people with money, wants to help out the poor. who are the poor. the poor are all the construction people who can't get a job because construction is stopped. give them money, great are they going to spend it? no they are out of work so they will use it to pay bills. to keep themselves alive. how about we dont tax the rich.lessen the burden on them. their sphincters open up and they go ahead with their new buildings, now you need architects laboreres engineers, sprinkler fitters, duct guys drywallers to build your building, so you hire up all those out of work workers. so now these people have a job to go to so money is coming to them and they can go out and spend the money.


people arn't buying product because they dont have a job. give them a job and they have money to buy the product. if there is no product, giving money for people to buy something that isnt there is worthless. let the guy who has the money build the building which requires workers, open the store which requires workes, and now you have everyone employed and making money.


the money is out there, but the rich right now are to scared to spend it. the rich closing their pocket books out of fear is what has caused so much layoffs in the first place.


Assumption is killing you man. I really do think you need a history lesson, with that being said you do realize in the "hay-days" of this country, the so called rich were taxed at whopping 80-90% right? Now going with your Assumption issue, who is to say that they won't buy? Those f-ers are paid well (for what they do) and by doing so, they have extra change to surpass their basic living buys... that's what moves the economy. Those people that think that these workers are so useless are now creating what buisneses want; thats demand. You know that LED TV that X-person wants, well that paycheck is healthy enough to purchase it. Being that thousands and possibly millions are in the same situations in having purchasing buy power, that increase in demand will sell out products. By then you have to build more to meet demand, build more means longer working hours, extra shifts, and hiring.
By lowering the taxes on the rich, the only thing it does is benefit the rich, but gives very little to almost no return to the economy. Why? Simple and strait forward, the group that actually moves the economy (middle class) has no money in their pocket, the rich does. But wait, the rich now has more money to hire???? Really? Capitalism does not dictate that. How? Why would you hire more if there is no demand? Businesses has to see the market first before a wanted add appears on the Sunday paper, no? "The rich" now has to play Russian Roulette: Should I hire more with no demand in hopes that people's pockets gets filled and then they buy my products, or could I keep the extra money that Uncle Sam is not taking from me and run my employment at a modest level with more money now in my pocket, or could I take the less taxing and open up a low-wage shop overseas and build there and maximize my profit and still build at a modest level, or could I use the extra money and invest in the best aspect of maximize profit: automation.
What I read in the past, this administration will continue Bush's tax code for 3 years, by then they will only increase the percentage 3-4% to a whopping 38-39%. I think it is much different to the 70-80-90% taxing in a time when the country was #1. No?



THE POLITICALLY INCORRECT ONE.

Re: This whole bad economy thing is a LIE
Sunday, May 31, 2009 2:17 PM on j-body.org
history lesson, as a kid i liked grilled cheese, now i dont. things change, people change.



when im saying helping out the rich i should clarify by saying helping out the business who are owned by rich, im not talking about actual tax breaks for the rich guys pocket.s your thought process seems to be limited to like perishable goods and tv's. how about hospitals. demand for the most part stays steady in that field. but most hospital construction has shutdown. the rich have the money, they have the desire to build and expand. but they arn't because of being unsure of the market. this is the best time to invest and more millionaires will be made in the next 10 years then youve ever seen. but they need an incentive to take their money out of the bank and use it. im not suggesting that cutting taxes to the rich will cause them to go out and buy big screen tv's im saying there are tons of companies out there that need to expand but arn't do to the uncertainty. they have the money to make the move. tons of companies were allready in the process. but do to the current climate they are playing a sit and wait game.



if you dont have a job, goverment giving you $400 is going to do nothing for the econemy. its like dropping a bucket of water in the ocean and wondering why it didn't rise. people need jobs. without jobs what are we going to do. just foricbly take the money from those with jobs to give it to those without jobs to stir the econemy???? by just giving money to the poor your not helping anyone.

reminds me of the ole proverb, give a man a fish he will eat for a day. teach a man to fish he will eat forever. i prefer to give the guy a job fishing, he eats, i eat were all happy. you prefer to give the man a fish every day.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/sndsgood/ https://www.facebook.com/#!/Square1Photography
Re: This whole bad economy thing is a LIE
Sunday, May 31, 2009 6:52 PM on j-body.org
1. Yhea, I "limited to like perishable goods and tv's" in order to put it in lehman's terms so I show something so simplistic. Grasp?
2. And I never defended the $400~ (I think I even said it on the last page) but I do support gov't money to immediately open gov't jobs, then to tax less on rich and (hope) they hire more. Cliffnote worked?

Sorry, I can't put it any more basic then that.



THE POLITICALLY INCORRECT ONE.

Re: This whole bad economy thing is a LIE
Monday, June 01, 2009 1:43 PM on j-body.org
Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:

1. Yhea, I "limited to like perishable goods and tv's" in order to put it in lehman's terms so I show something so simplistic. Grasp?
2. And I never defended the $400~ (I think I even said it on the last page) but I do support gov't money to immediately open gov't jobs, then to tax less on rich and (hope) they hire more. Cliffnote worked?

Sorry, I can't put it any more basic then that.



sorry you can just never be sure allot of times when talking to people, esp when trying to type out your thoughts if they realise that there is more to jobs then just end user items like canned pinto beans.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/sndsgood/ https://www.facebook.com/#!/Square1Photography
Re: This whole bad economy thing is a LIE
Monday, June 01, 2009 9:53 PM on j-body.org
The biggest problem I have with this is that the people with the money dont need help..... the people without money do.

Giving someone with money..... even more money isnt going to make them create jobs.... its not that they dont have enough...... they need to be reassured that it will be safe to do so (assuming they are a business owner in the first place)

The problem is.... "how the hell do we do that?" everything sucks right now and everyone knows it.

I was just talking to my co workers how we really need another hurricane to hit Florida (assuming they can afford to fix things there) so we'll get more orders to replace all the broken windows in the shy scrapers.

I said it jokingly (I dont want anything bad to happen to them there) but its still true..

The problem with our society is that job wise.... we where well past what we "needed" as a nation.... we had WAY more and built WAY more than we needed before this recession hit just because we could. Now with useless spending gone... a lot of people are screwed... Just look at all this road construction being done with this "stimulus" money that blatantly doesnt need done just so it employes people.

We either need to take a back step to where we where when we where not so "Fruitfull" as a nation... or find a way to get people and businesses to start doing things and spending money on things that they really dont need to.....

We basically have way more people than needed jobs atm.. Now I'll admit.... if the media lied and said everything was good (instead of bad).... things would prob get better.... if everyone thought the dow Jones sky rocketed.... the economy would get better to a point... the thing is that EVERYONE would need to start spending more again at the same time....

Over time.... things will get better... we will hit a "Plato" on how bad things get.... and when people realize that it's not going to get much worse than it is.... they will be able to formulate the risk and start investing again..... then things will get a little better and more people will invest.... and so on.... we just need to hit the "stable" point and stay there for awhile till that can happen.

Regardless if things get better..... there are still going to be a lot of people that got screwed by this that are going to stay screwed for quite some while..... we cant help that.

As for the rich people thing..... all I know is that..... if I hit the powerball and won 200 million dollars tomorrow...... helping people would be the last thing on my mind..... I'de live the way I wanted to.... but I'd just sit back and live on the interest and sit back and watch till things got better too.... like every other rich person.... I honestly cant blame them for doing what there doing.... and realize that all the taunting in the world wont change there mind... It's one of those.... "screw you... Im protecting myself" things.





Re: This whole bad economy thing is a LIE
Tuesday, June 02, 2009 8:18 AM on j-body.org
its not about giving money to the rich. its about giving them incentives business wise to open their pocketbooks and go ahead and do the expantions allot of them had allready planned or in allot of cases allready started. just as in the market, everyone is just waiting for things to calm down. if a few would just take the risk and start investing again the markets will start to rise, and once it starts to rise people will feel like the econemy is on a better footing and more people will start to throw money in. its not like were saying hey buddy you dont have any customers, go expand your company. its saying hey mr x. you are running at full capacity. you know you have to expand, hell you started building the building allready.go ahead and do it. hell now is the time to do it because you can get everything so cheap right now.

weeble you hit a big part of it as well. the media only spouts off bad news, allways doom and gloom and that i really feel has helped make things allot worse. if that attitude change it would get some people to take a bit of risk.




i think jobwise we wern't above where we needed, we were right about where we needed. figure about 5-6% unemployment rate is a good rate. problem is some people think that there should be 0% unemployment and will scream and hollar about the horrible unemployment rate even if it was at 1% but the truth is, there are just those out there that suck at life and will never get a job or keep a job. and some that have no desire whatsoever to get a job.



and there is a big diffrence between you hitting the powerball and winning 200 million and someone who has built up a company and has the drive to see it thrive and prosper. two diffrent mindsets. if you have the money this will be the best time to expand because costs are low.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/sndsgood/ https://www.facebook.com/#!/Square1Photography
Re: This whole bad economy thing is a LIE
Tuesday, June 02, 2009 11:50 PM on j-body.org
^^^^^ OK.... I get what your saying.....

People that want to do business wont because they are afraid to, and who can blame them...

So how is the government going to take away the fear? Sure free money in the form if a stimulus for them to use isnt a bad idea in theory, but its been mishandled so much and is just a short term fix.... especially when you realize where that money came from.

I honestly dont understand how we can reassure them its reasonably safe or nudge them to start producing again like they where when it's obvious how bad things are. Sure if you could get everyone to do it then it would work.... but everyone will be to worried about the "other guy" not holding up their end. I honestly dont see a "fix" for this or anything that will jump start the economy like people are looking for. Maybe another world war..... maybe.... but thats about it. And thats even unlikely cinsidering how advanced we are atm.

I honestly believe that none of this crap congress is trying (other than somehow magically creating jobs wick worked in the past) is going to work and is probably just going to make things worse.

I still belive that we are just going to have to sit back and wait...... and just produce as much as we can for the current situation until everything levels out and stays steady for awhile.... then things will slowly get better. This is one of those things that really only time can fix IMO.

And if the media stopped scaring the crap out of everyone like they love to do... that would help a bit also.

As far as what I said about producing way more than we needed.... Did we really need a starbucks in every town? A smoothie stand in every mall? 200 brand freaking new cars at every dealership in every town especially when there 5 of them in most? Thats what I meant... we didnt "need" all that and there really wasnt a reason for it other than people where so happy to foolishly spen money in mass for soo long.









Re: This whole bad economy thing is a LIE
Wednesday, June 03, 2009 4:54 AM on j-body.org
im sure the need for allot of stuff was a bit overinflated. business like starbucks were seeing tons of profit so they build. did they overbuild, im sure in some areas they had. ive heard of starbucks on opposite sides of the street in new york. but the market generally will level them out. this market turn was just a bit more dramatic the most were. coupld that with the worries of the way the goverment is being ran and you have business closing stores plug cutting back costs because they dont know whats going to happen so that made it twice as worse. think what it will take to open pocketbooks is some kind of stability. once things get stabalised people will make their moves. even if its worse off as long as its stable people will find ways to make money and expand. i think if the goverment stopped writing big checks with the peoples money things would settle down. but im just a guy working on assumptions.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/sndsgood/ https://www.facebook.com/#!/Square1Photography
Re: This whole bad economy thing is a LIE
Wednesday, June 03, 2009 1:04 PM on j-body.org
Weeble, the thing is that it's not that the rich or businesses should be getting money, but the government needs to give them the incentive that when they invest, their money won't be taken away in 5 different ways until they barely keep any of it.

There is a simple point about lowering business taxes, higher income bracket rates, and particularly capital gains taxes, that the opposition misses, or simply doesn't believe will happen: the people who have the ability to invest heavily in anything will only do so when they see that the risk is worth the payoff. Right now, the government is giving them every indication that they will be vilified, and taxed through the roof, if they succeed. No wonder none of them are! This has the effect of halting growth everywhere. When the government backs off the taxes, and shows that they are willing to get out of the way, the people who have been sitting on their money will do something with it.

Here's a quick and simple description of how the process works. There is a good reason why anti-trickle down people either don't understand it, or can convince others of it's failure: it's not a quick and direct cause-effect scenario. There are multiple steps along the way, beginning with real investment:

1. Taxes get lowered on higher brackets, capital gains, and business operations

2. People and businesses with money begin to make investments for growth. A good portion of this is in real property, such as building a new strip mall, or purchasing an old one and rebuilding it, or maybe apartment buildings.

3. These all require hiring of companies in the construction industries.

4. Those construction industries give their employees more hours, and/or hire additional employees.

5. They also will most likely be investing in new equipment and expanding their business.

6. Now, both the businesses purchasing new equipment, and the employees getting more hours, or new employees getting hired, starts the spending in the retail world.

7. With retail sales starting to increase, stores begin increasing payroll (more hours and/or more employees), and manufacturing begins to increase due to the increase in demand for products (leading to increase in payroll at this level as well).

8. Because of the increase in goods being purchased, the transportation industry also increases, leading to increased payroll and equipment purchasing there.

At every point along the way, the increases in payroll turns into more money in the private sector which can be spent, and it's all in the lower to middle class. This does not happen overnight, but it's a recipe for real growth because it offers the incentive for investing in growth. This is why it's sustainable long-term, where tax and spend is not. It is also why when we followed this plan, we saw the longest and steepest increase in employment in the last century.

However, if you understand this, you can easily see why it can be misconstrued.

Also, people like Goodwrench continue to claim that the people with money won't spend it like the middle and lower class will, as part of the class envy game, but the reality is that people with money will put it where they can grow it the best. When the cost of business increases, it becomes more attractive to make mostly passive investments, like the stock market or commodities markets, because the risk/reward ratio is too low in business. When the cost of business gets lowered, that ratio becomes more attractive, and people will begin investing in projects, or start up businesses. This is the type of spending that will really wake up the economy, not simply throwing a little bit of money at the middle class expecting that this will increase consumer spending enough to make a difference. Consumer spending alone will never move the economy enough to turn it around. It has to come from larger sources, and it has to come from the private sector. As long as the government continues to take from the upper level of the private sector, and dole it out to the lower levels, it will never have the turn around effect. I just don't see why people can't grasp this, especially since Bush tried it twice in the last 8 years, and it failed both times. However, when taxes were lowered, we saw steady growth.







Re: This whole bad economy thing is a LIE
Wednesday, June 03, 2009 8:08 PM on j-body.org
^Spoken like if he is in the 1% category, good job faux Warren Buffet.

P.S.
I must be in your night mares as you have to include my name every time you express your opinions, I don't know... if I should feel flattered, or tell you; "sorry, I don't swing that way?"


THE POLITICALLY INCORRECT ONE.


Re: This whole bad economy thing is a LIE
Wednesday, June 03, 2009 11:50 PM on j-body.org
^^^^ LOL

SO basically..... we screwed the free market until it bit us back...... now that where hurt..... the government is trying to screw with it even more..... mind you the free market is a "self governing system" and forcible outside forces just make it function less correctly...

So we just need to stop poking at the damn thing and let it calm down for awhile and it will eventually get back up on its feet.





Re: This whole bad economy thing is a LIE
Thursday, June 04, 2009 4:51 AM on j-body.org
good call weeble. ive felt that all this tinkering by goverment is kinda like getting a flat. tire started deflating and instead of just stopping and getting a new tire they said, "hey lets throw a band aid on it and just keep driving. hmm its stil leaking, throw a few more band aids on it. now a few more. so now were driving around on this tire that is 50% bandaids and driving down the highway at 90 mph and it suddenly pops.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/sndsgood/ https://www.facebook.com/#!/Square1Photography
Re: This whole bad economy thing is a LIE
Thursday, June 04, 2009 5:16 AM on j-body.org
Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:

^Spoken like if he is in the 1% category, good job faux Warren Buffet.

P.S.
I must be in your night mares as you have to include my name every time you express your opinions, I don't know... if I should feel flattered, or tell you; "sorry, I don't swing that way?"

How about spoken like I've got lots of successful experience in business management. But then again, you're only ability to debate with me is to attack me in some form or another, since you can't make a factual argument that holds up.

And to your PS, It was a response to the typical statement you made a few posts up, and pointing out to others where your sentiment comes from.







Re: This whole bad economy thing is a LIE
Thursday, June 04, 2009 8:12 AM on j-body.org
Quiklilcav wrote:

Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:

^Spoken like if he is in the 1% category, good job faux Warren Buffet.

P.S.
I must be in your night mares as you have to include my name every time you express your opinions, I don't know... if I should feel flattered, or tell you; "sorry, I don't swing that way?"

How about spoken like I've got lots of successful experience in business management. But then again, you're only ability to debate with me is to attack me in some form or another, since you can't make a factual argument that holds up.

And to your PS, It was a response to the typical statement you made a few posts up, and pointing out to others where your sentiment comes from.



quiet warren buffet, why can't you understand that you shouldnt work and strive to be in that upper 1%. you should just work on being in the lower 99% and making that upper 1% pay your way.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/sndsgood/ https://www.facebook.com/#!/Square1Photography
Forum Post / Reply
You must log in before you can post or reply to messages.

 

Start New Topic Advanced Search