It's insurance....duh! Just run it a lot like auto insurance. - Politics and War Forum

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It's insurance....duh! Just run it a lot like auto insurance.
Wednesday, July 01, 2009 7:44 AM on j-body.org
Well, first here's a good link:

http://health.yahoo.com/news/ap/us_med_obesity_rankings.html


It seems that health insurance could be rather inexpensive for a healthy 22 yr old male non-smoker. If he gets the flu, he'll likely miss a couple of days work and be back about his business, all the while leveling up on WOW. So, it makes no sense for him to pay the same monthly rate as an obese 50 yr old with arthritis and knee problems does it?
I mean, that would be similar to charging a 30 married mom, driving a minivan, the same amount as a 17 yr boy behind the wheel of a camaro. Greater risk and likelihood of filing a claim should equal higher rates.....right?

When I read reports like the one above....citing 30%+ obesity rates (michigan is #2 in the 55-65 yr range)......well, it makes me a little mad. Everyone knows it is unhealthy to be fat and out of shape. Now, true, you can be a heart attack wating to happen, and look healthy, but that is definitely not the norm.

The most basic formula is: Eat less + move around more. You don't need to crunch numbers, weigh your food, and plan your meals out. Just put less food in the pie hole, and take a 20 min walk. (thats a mile a day at a nice leisurely pace)


So, here's an easy fix to keep costs down: Charge more. That's right...more. When you take your mandatory annual physical, and your cholesterol + blood pressure are off the charts, you get a hike in your rates. If you show up 6 months later and you have dropped 50 lbs, and your #'s are back into a healthy range, you get a discount.
(car insurance works the same way with your points record, but takes longer)

For the people that refuse to change their lifestyle and wish to remain fat and out-of-shape, fine. Let them get fat, but they will pay a much higher premium than the low-risk folks.

Do the same thing fore medicaid and medicare too. It ceases to be "free" when you demonstrate that you would rather be obese and unhealthy. If these lardos had to start paying more, they would lose weight. I'm not talking a $5 copay, I'm talking $100+ per month. Why should any taxpayer have to fund a lazy + self-indulgent lifestyle for someone that doesn't take the initiative to keep their own body reasonably healthy?

The untold billions that would be saved annually on health care would negate any need for so-called "reform. insurance companies would't need government intervention to implement it. (of course government would probably intervene anyway on Fattie's behalf) This could seriously be done in about a year or two.

.


“Poor Al Gore. Global warming completely debunked via the very Internet you invented. Oh, oh, the irony!” -Jon Stewart

Re: It's insurance....duh! Just run it a lot like auto insurance.
Wednesday, July 01, 2009 8:44 AM on j-body.org
I sometimes wonder if you actually forget about all the other threads out there, or if you just refuse to post in one created by someone else...
Do you have a monthly quota to make, or do you just hate to see other people's threads on the first page?

/rant1

I love it when people think all anyone has to do is go for a walk and not make a pit-stop at Mickey-D's and they'll be fit as a fiddle.
I have a buddy who has the world's fastest metabolism, a job which involves a lot of physical labor, who is routinely on a health-trip (natural foods, exercise routine...he's even done P90X), but still can't get below 230 (@ 5'10").
I grew up playing sports; baseball, soccer, hockey. I spent almost all my free time outside playing sports, either in a league or just with friends in the neighborhood (here in Phoenix, sports are year-round). Up until the end of high school I played on multiple competitive hockey teams, which means I was working my ass off at least 2 hours a day, 5-7 days/wk (on top of light labor at my job 30 hrs/wk). I had tournament weekends where I spent more time on skates than off them. I grew up overweight, and that never changed, and it's not like I lived off fast-food.

/rant2




fortune cookie say: better a delay than a disaster
Re: It's insurance....duh! Just run it a lot like auto insurance.
Wednesday, July 01, 2009 10:59 AM on j-body.org
you would also need to include family medical history as well, and a whole other list of factors



Re: It's insurance....duh! Just run it a lot like auto insurance.
Wednesday, July 01, 2009 7:20 PM on j-body.org
I believe family history can be a factor, but that is not an excuse to not make the time to get off the couch or the computer and walk or do something.

A lot of fat people like to play online games. Online games that take months and months to move up levels and they never see the end.
then they get hungry and eat sugar, bread, chips, coke, and everything high on carbs and they also smoke but never take the time to burn the fat man.
Those people are just lazy and dont' want to get up and exercise. excuses excuses excuses...




"is not that I don't care, it is not my responsibility"
Re: It's insurance....duh! Just run it a lot like auto insurance.
Thursday, July 02, 2009 5:23 AM on j-body.org
ummm if you have health issues your rate is generally higher then someone young and healthy. kinda how it works.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/sndsgood/ https://www.facebook.com/#!/Square1Photography
Re: It's insurance....duh! Just run it a lot like auto insurance.
Thursday, July 02, 2009 7:55 AM on j-body.org
But not with the proposed government programs OR with insurance you get from your job. Same rates for everyone (unless you have a family, of course. Then its more)

Yes, if I have some pre-existing condition and no insurance, and I go shopping for coverage, I should pay more than the guy who's fine. In fact, if I have cancer, no insurance, the the companies can and should be continued to be allowed to deny me coverage.

But our "friends" in DC think that isn't very nice + pre-existing conditions shouldn't matter, nor should they necessitate a higher rate for the buy-in.

If these principles of risk/ cost were applied to everyone (including employer insurance) the costs would go down for those who deserve lower rates.

And women shouldn't get a free-pass here either. Having a baby, with all the prenatal, delivery expenses, potential complications etc...... those rates need to be adjusted for pregos too.

Finally, cap damage awards for malpractice (everyone not on the BAR knows this makes sense) When an OBGYN pays 40% + of his income to cover malpractice insurance, is it any wonder his services cost so much + and become unatainable for many women? You screw up and cost some woman her life, or the accidental termination of the non-human gelatinous compilation of cells in her uterus.... you should be punished.....but punitive damages of $50 mil ??? C'mon. Should be a "price list" of sorts for jury awards.

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“Poor Al Gore. Global warming completely debunked via the very Internet you invented. Oh, oh, the irony!” -Jon Stewart
Re: It's insurance....duh! Just run it a lot like auto insurance.
Thursday, July 02, 2009 10:21 AM on j-body.org
actually mine is with insurance i get from work, and yes my cost is higher because of my previous condition. as for propposed health care programs i can't comment to much on. id just assume they would charge the rich people more and give it to the poor people for free and call it fair.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/sndsgood/ https://www.facebook.com/#!/Square1Photography
Re: It's insurance....duh! Just run it a lot like auto insurance.
Thursday, July 02, 2009 3:56 PM on j-body.org
Here's a stupid question:

Why is the number of obisity keep getting higher?



"is not that I don't care, it is not my responsibility"
Re: It's insurance....duh! Just run it a lot like auto insurance.
Thursday, July 02, 2009 6:22 PM on j-body.org
is Obesity not Obisity

anyway, another stupid question

Can We get medical insurance quotes and compare rates like we do with auto insurance?
Do we have as many insurance options as we have on auto insurance example no towing, no road side assistance, liability only.
What if you could modify your medical coverage?

I'm going to research and see what I come up with, should be fun.
dont' you smoke, NO
do you have any health problems, NO
your monthly payment is 125.00 per month
any speeding tickets? NO


Google Here I come I guess



"is not that I don't care, it is not my responsibility"
Re: It's insurance....duh! Just run it a lot like auto insurance.
Thursday, July 02, 2009 6:48 PM on j-body.org
The problem isn't necessarily fat people. What if you get some type of illness that isn't necessarily caused by you specifically doing something. You get breast cancer, genetically passed down from your mother. So is it your fault? Should you be discriminated against because of something that you did not choose or could not prevent?



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- Sold my beloved J in April 2010 -
Re: It's insurance....duh! Just run it a lot like auto insurance.
Thursday, July 02, 2009 8:57 PM on j-body.org
QUESTION: "Should you be discriminated against because of something that you did not choose or could not prevent?"


ANSWER: Yes..... if the cancer is a pre-existing condition. It isn't the insurance company's fault either. Why force them to lose money on the deal? They'll just recoup the costs elsewhere on their other policy holders.

However, if I've been merrily paying my health insurance all along, and THEN I get cancer, No, they shouldn't be allowed to drop my policy.


"The problem isn't necessarily fat people" Well, of course not...skinny people get AIDS, break their arms, + shoot their eyes out with bb guns too. The issue is what being obese leads to: Type 2 diabetes and the myriad of horrors that come with that preventable, and treatable condition. High blood pressure, heart disease, cancer, arthritis, and god knows what else. This causes these fatties to clog up the appointment book, consume all kinds of meds, and what do they do? Blame the government or the insurance companies for the high prices. And because obesity causes so many other problems, it has to be looked at as a major component in rising health costs. Simple.

.


“Poor Al Gore. Global warming completely debunked via the very Internet you invented. Oh, oh, the irony!” -Jon Stewart

Re: It's insurance....duh! Just run it a lot like auto insurance.
Friday, July 03, 2009 5:31 AM on j-body.org
Viper98912 wrote:

The problem isn't necessarily fat people. What if you get some type of illness that isn't necessarily caused by you specifically doing something. You get breast cancer, genetically passed down from your mother. So is it your fault? Should you be discriminated against because of something that you did not choose or could not prevent?

To answer your question, I'll turn it around and ask you this:

Should the insurance company be forced to take a higher risk without any compensation? How is it fair to make them take someone on at the same premium as anyone else, if there is a good chance they'll be paying out large amounts of money down the road for this person?

The alternative is that everyones' premium goes up, to cover the increased risk. So I will also ask if it is fair to make a perfectly healthy, generally low-risk person pay a higher premium because the insurance company is forced to insure the higher risk person at the equal premium?







Re: It's insurance....duh! Just run it a lot like auto insurance.
Friday, July 03, 2009 6:27 AM on j-body.org
Quik has nailed the crux of what I was trying to say in about 1/5 the amount of space. It is a symptom of a socialist society.

,


“Poor Al Gore. Global warming completely debunked via the very Internet you invented. Oh, oh, the irony!” -Jon Stewart
Re: It's insurance....duh! Just run it a lot like auto insurance.
Friday, July 03, 2009 6:41 AM on j-body.org
so do you guys feel its okay to just not take on say a person with cancer, or do you feel they should have to take them on but just at a higher cost?


http://www.flickr.com/photos/sndsgood/ https://www.facebook.com/#!/Square1Photography
Re: It's insurance....duh! Just run it a lot like auto insurance.
Friday, July 03, 2009 8:49 AM on j-body.org
Take them, but at a higher cost....

After all, isn't that how auto insurance works? Person A has 1 ticket and pays xxxx amount, Person B has 5 tickets and pays same xxxx amount + 80% surcharge.

That seems fair - if it's a pre-condition then yes you get surcharged. If you've been part of the plan for a while and suddenly you are diagnosed - well that's not your fault and it's the entire REASON you're paying for said insurance, so the company should cover that and not cancel you because suddenly things aren't going their way.

-Chris-



-Sweetness-
-Turbocharged-
Slowly but surely may some day win this race...
Re: It's insurance....duh! Just run it a lot like auto insurance.
Friday, July 03, 2009 8:59 AM on j-body.org
If a person already has a disease, you're no longer buying an insurance policy, you're buying care. An insurance company should not be required to offer a policy without excluding coverage for that disease (that statute already exists, but I'm just stating that I believe it's the right way). It would be the equivalent of insuring a totalled car and purchasing collision coverage so that you could get it fixed.

If a company wants to offer coverage, at the premium they believe is a fair risk, great. However, they should not be required to. Something that this country has gotten away from, which is part of the reason for the ever escalating costs, is the notion that you pay for your regular health care, but have insurance in case an illness or injury happens in the future. With the advent of HMOs, people began to believe that for a monthly premium, you should never have to pay for anything. This lead to people complaining about co-pays being unreasonable because they were already paying their monthly premium. The next logical step to these people is that the plan should be a right that everyone has. The whole idea of catastrophic health insurance is foreign to most people at this point.

So Jason, to answer your point directly, yes, I believe it's OK to turn down a person for coverage because of an existing condition. No company should ever be forced to pay out money that is, in all likelihood, going to exceed any amount they are receiving for the policy premium. It might sound harsh, but when you look at it, these kind of things would end up running insurance companies out of business, so we would be no better off.


There are a bunch of things that I believe, very strongly, would bring down health care costs severely:

1) Tort reform. As I've stated before, this is the single most important factor. Ever-increasing malpractice insurance premiums constitute the single largest cost in the industry. Caps on damage awards, and loser pays all court costs. This would mean less frivolous suits, because no one would want to risk paying through the teeth for a lost suit, and it would mean that any time the doctor or hospital was found not at fault, they wouldn't be paying all the costs for no reason.

2) For any care that is not a life-threatening emergency, you must be able to prove citizenship, or pay up front (with cash). If you can prove citizenship, but you are not paying up front, you must sign a legally binding payment agreement, which is just as strong as any other credit agreement. I don't see any problem with costly care offering long-term financing, but there must be legal ramifications of failing to pay.

3) Get rid of HMOs. Return to people paying for regular care, and insurance being simply for emergencies. Premiums will come down in a huge way, and the costs of regular care will come down because of competition, as well due to the lack of bureaucracy required to get the payments from the HMO. Something that could replace the HMO would be privately organized buying groups for medications and/or regular care. Think about it this way: if a group of people got together and organized, they could collective bargain with any company, doctor, or health care facility, to negotiate a price for a large group of clients. The only risk here is that they do not turn into that the unions did, which is a pocket-lining power trip for the leadership.

4) reform the FDA. I have read countless examples of the FDA squashing alternative medicine because of corruption involving the pharmaceutical companies. The FDA is, like all other government agencies, supposed to be an impartial, independent firm to oversee factual studies to assure the safety of products to hit the market. But as with any government agency, they have been corrupted immensely, and have too much power.

All these things aside, non-profit organizations would still be around to raise money for people with severe illnesses who can not afford the care. These would probably flourish more once health care reforms stated above were in place, because costs would be lower, and people in general would probably have more money to donate.

There is absolutely no need for the government to "offer competition" to the health care market. There are already 1300 health insurance companies out there. Plenty of competition if the playing field is cleared up a bit. The government offering going to be fair competition, because they will be subsidised, just like every other thing they run.

Also consider that part of the plan is to simply cap costs by writ. They will effectively cap salaries for health care professionals, making it less attractive to get into the industry. We already have a supply problem. Without government intervention, the health care industry has still seen an increase in employment, even while unemployment in general continues to rise. If the draw to get into the field is diminished, we'll be seeing an even lower supply/demand ratio, causing the need for rationing. It will also increase waiting periods for care.







Edited 2 time(s). Last edited Friday, July 03, 2009 9:30 AM



Re: It's insurance....duh! Just run it a lot like auto insurance.
Friday, July 03, 2009 3:23 PM on j-body.org
"So Jason, to answer your point directly, yes, I believe it's OK to turn down a person for coverage because of an existing condition. No company should ever be forced to pay out money that is, in all likelihood, going to exceed any amount they are receiving for the policy premium. It might sound harsh, but when you look at it, these kind of things would end up running insurance companies out of business, so we would be no better off."


see i have to completly disagree with this, say i work for company x. i have chrones disease, i have full coverage. oh, company x goes out of business now out of no fault of my own i lose my insurance because my company goes under. now i wont have any insurance for what i need it for most. and do to the fact that insurance companies dont have to cover me im prety much black balled from insurance. could you imagine the millions of people out there that would get absolutly no covergage, because now insurance companies dont have to cover them at all. so my only real option is to just not get a job, go on welfare and let the goverment (you taxpayers) pay for my medical expenses. now because someone with an ilness knows they will never get coverage again they are not pretty much at the mercy of their employer because they cannot aford to be fired, they cant take the risk.



no matter wether you have a preexisting condition or not. you are buying care, eventually you will need care. health insurance is a little diffrent then car insurance, car insurance you may never need. health insurance you will always need and always use. not to mention there are those disesse and such out there that can be in remishon for years or near the end of someones life before the crop back up. you can't point out who is goign to get a disease so its no diffrent then pulling names out of a hat and go sorry number 311 but you will never have health insurance, your screwed. sorry your going to die.


insurance companies dont make their money on what they take in from users versus what they pay out for medical expenses. insurance companies make their money by taking what they bring in and investing that money to make them money. you can take in a case that will cost you money and still not have it hurt the bottom line. if soeone has a condition where they may not need medical help until say 10 years down the line, the money made on investing their monthy payments could pay for that operation even though 10 years from now it cost more then what the person origonally paid in.




it doesnt seem like healthcare to me to exclude healthcare and let die the people who need it most. thats basically just like saying were giving this to those that dont need it, and those that dont need it your screwed.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/sndsgood/ https://www.facebook.com/#!/Square1Photography
Re: It's insurance....duh! Just run it a lot like auto insurance.
Friday, July 03, 2009 3:50 PM on j-body.org
The problem with what you're saying though is that someone should get charged more for what they have. What if you don't have a pre-existing condition?

The biggest problem with what you're saying is that auto insurance is not for the person, it is for the person YOU hurt. That's why many states require a minimum of liability, for the other person, not YOU. If you get extras (collision, comprehensive, personal injury etc etc) for yourself, then yes YOU are paying more for YOURSELF.

Health insurance is for the person insured, not the other. This is why it's discrimination. The simple fact is, if you don't want it or need it, then don't get it. No one is forcing to do anything for yourself when it comes to buying health insurance.

You claim that you're healthy? Then ask your company to drop you off their plan and save yourself the money.

I'm healthy myself. Until I got food poisoning one night at Cheesecake Factory (a decent restaurant) and had to go to the hospital. I didn't ask for it. I don't have any existing conditions. And I'm not fat.



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- Sold my beloved J in April 2010 -
Re: It's insurance....duh! Just run it a lot like auto insurance.
Friday, July 03, 2009 4:37 PM on j-body.org
Viper98912 wrote:



You claim that you're healthy? Then ask your company to drop you off their plan and save yourself the money.



wow... that's like saying if you claim you're a safe driver then as Safe Auto to drop your coverage and save yourself the money because you're a safe driver.
Then someone hits your car

Same case, you can be healthy but you can get a virus real bad and then you're screwed.

I claim I'm healthy but the only reason why I have medical insurance is in case I have to go to the ER and that's the first thing they ask and they treat you better PLUS I can't imaging the medical bill I will have after is done
that's why is called Insurance because you never know when you needed. I can at least have that peace of mind.


"is not that I don't care, it is not my responsibility"
Re: It's insurance....duh! Just run it a lot like auto insurance.
Friday, July 03, 2009 4:41 PM on j-body.org
Need IT


"is not that I don't care, it is not my responsibility"
Re: It's insurance....duh! Just run it a lot like auto insurance.
Friday, July 03, 2009 4:58 PM on j-body.org
So what about the people that genuinely have jobs that can't afford it, because it's not offered by their job? Screw them?

My dad once told me this analogy. Imagine all the people in this nation's heartland that don't know how to use a computer. Isn't that incredible in today's modern society?!

What about those people who have known nothing but farming because they were raised in a tight family that the only way they could survive was to strap on the boots and hit the farm at age 5. If not, everyone would starve to death or die of poverty. Because as important as our farmers are, they are sometimes some of the most poor, even though they probably work harder than many people.

I have an engineering degree with a decent paying job with good benefits. Sometimes you want to say "well, why didn't you go to college to better yourself?". But as time has gone on, not everyone goes to college, for many reasons. Family reasons, financial reasons, intelligence reasons, personal reasons, etc etc etc. You realize that there's a "job" out there for everyone, based on your beliefs, intellectual level, etc, and there's NOTHING wrong with being a CEO or being a janitor, as long as you do your job well and take pride in it.

What if that janitor can't afford health insurance? Is he any better than the CEO? Should he be left out of the health insurance pot? There's a lot of hard working americans in this country that can't genuinely afford it, but that doesn't mean they haven't tried or are less of a person than anyone else. These are the people we need to help. And yes unfortunately, there's many out there who are too lazy to do it, but it's just an assumption that has to be absorbed.



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- Sold my beloved J in April 2010 -

Re: It's insurance....duh! Just run it a lot like auto insurance.
Friday, July 03, 2009 5:00 PM on j-body.org
There's a lot of good people out there, and you can't leave them behind. Because everyone at some point in their life needs a hand.



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- Sold my beloved J in April 2010 -
Re: It's insurance....duh! Just run it a lot like auto insurance.
Friday, July 03, 2009 6:27 PM on j-body.org
Viper, although your arguments sound impassioned, the big problem, as I see it, is that they are based on emotions. ----not fair, mean, what about poor-dumb-farmers?--- There are always Dr.Phillish said stories, but they are far and away from the norm. btw, most farmers in the midwest are rather well-off. The concept of Farmer Brown plowing the back 40 with his trusty mule.... aint happening anymore.

"What if that janitor can't afford health insurance? Is he any better than the CEO? Should he be left out of the health insurance pot?" once again, yes. If its that important to him, he should cancel cable tv, cell-phone, never eat out, go on vacation, drive only used cars + move his family into a one bedroom shack. Health insurance isn't a right. Its a service you purchase. If you can't afford it, then you can't have it....unless you force someone else to pay for it for him. Would you let the janitor drive to work w/0 car insurance, just because he can't afford it? I mean, if he got into an accident, the other policy holders would eat the cost. Its all good.


Sndsgood, "you can take in a case that will cost you money and still not have it hurt the bottom line." I'm sorry, but that doesn't make any sense. Anytime something costs me money, it is affecting my bottom line. Perhaps what you meant to say was : -you could take on a cast that costs you money and still have a lot of money left over.-

As far as the Chrones disease: check out this site...it could be a big help to your "friend" www.drmirkin.com

Also, if your company goes belly up, I think you can purchase COBRA. .....i think.

.



“Poor Al Gore. Global warming completely debunked via the very Internet you invented. Oh, oh, the irony!” -Jon Stewart
Re: It's insurance....duh! Just run it a lot like auto insurance.
Friday, July 03, 2009 6:37 PM on j-body.org
ScottaWhite wrote:

If its that important to him, he should cancel cable tv, cell-phone, never eat out, go on vacation, drive only used cars + move his family into a one bedroom shack.


I find this to be an extremely ignorant statement. While there are some who do this and it's dispicable (sp?), there are those that don't.



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- Sold my beloved J in April 2010 -
Re: It's insurance....duh! Just run it a lot like auto insurance.
Friday, July 03, 2009 6:48 PM on j-body.org
While you do try to make some ground and sense with some of your posts, I hope you realize that many of them contain generalizations. Unfortunately there is no "one size fits all". Generalizations are what have partially kept this country back for 200+ years.

Do you agree with Bush that we needed to spread democracy to the middle east? Because all 7 billion people on this earth all want the same thing, to live in a democratic republic? Operation Iraqi "freedom" and our mission to spread democracy to the world? Do you really think that a people who are highly based on their religion and their culture and their history want a capitalistic society such as ours?

Do you really think that the health insurance "problem" is because of a bunch of lazy, fat, inconsiderate @!#$? All one group, because they are at fault, and it is their fault?

(Not directed at anyone -> Everyone has an opinion. And it's "their" fault because "they're" wrong. And "they're" ideas don't work. Yet "you" don't have an answer or solution. Or at least, a well thought out one at that. Because if "you" did, we wouldn't be having this discussion.



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- Sold my beloved J in April 2010 -
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