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Re: King George W still in the news
Tuesday, July 14, 2009 4:46 PM on j-body.org
yes I realize that NAFTA was republican backed and had to do with GHWB.....(?)....everyone makes mistakes....

and I know consumers won't see a price difference... but in some things they'll see a difference in quality.... and it's reassuring to me when I buy american made things that I've supported a hard working american taxpayer....

and yes I understand that $$$$ talks....

so you agree NAFTA screwed workers? or American workers?


-Red-

Re: King George W still in the news
Tuesday, July 14, 2009 4:49 PM on j-body.org
Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:

Worst thing about it, consumers WILL NEVER see a price difference whether the american name product was built here, or Mexico, or China.

Over and above any of the previous fallacies you have ever posted, this one proves your lack of real world knowledge more than anything. Having been in numerous industries, I can tell you for a fact that stuff built in those countries constantly comes in far cheaper than it's American made competitors, regardless of where the parent company is.

Fact: products manufactured with cheaper labor sell cheaper. To even suggest otherwise is completely ignorant.







Re: King George W still in the news
Tuesday, July 14, 2009 5:05 PM on j-body.org
Red wrote:

yes I realize that NAFTA was republican backed and had to do with GHWB.....(?)....everyone makes mistakes....

and I know consumers won't see a price difference... but in some things they'll see a difference in quality.... and it's reassuring to me when I buy american made things that I've supported a hard working american taxpayer....

and yes I understand that $$$$ talks....

so you agree NAFTA screwed workers? or American workers?


100% Agreed. But those mistakes is what we are paying for now.
It only takes a brief look at early to mid 20th century history to show what was happening to this country when we built here: USA was tops and just about everybody was well off as they had purchasing power.


THE POLITICALLY INCORRECT ONE.

Re: King George W still in the news
Tuesday, July 14, 2009 5:12 PM on j-body.org
Quote:

Worst thing about it, consumers WILL NEVER see a price difference whether the american name product was built here, or Mexico, or China.



its getting to this because of NAFTA.... the idea that one country can make it just as good as another.... I'm sorry, but I'm a more efficient woodworker than 99% of the chinamen.... my quality is a whole lot better. as far as lumber is concerned, chinese plywood sucks.... russian birch is good.....hard to come by...the Cadilliac of pllywood.....just personal examples... as far as china though, with furniture they jack the price up to maximize profit..... in simple terms you pay the equivalent for chinese made sh!t as you do for american quality....its just that with the chinese they're able to pocket more money than with americans....

Quote:

products manufactured with cheaper labor sell cheaper. To even suggest otherwise is completely ignorant.



so an example of this would be kia starting at $8,888 as opposed to chevy's starting at $16,888?

or furniture?.... the point being that kia has cheaper labor than chevrolet, hence why their vehicles can be sold at cheaper prices? am I on the right track?

I made the previous post thinking about the chinese made American flags being the same price as the American made American flags....

so the answer is not repealing nafta....its just lowering taxes to where companies can afford to profit in america?


-Red-
Re: King George W still in the news
Tuesday, July 14, 2009 5:53 PM on j-body.org
To start,

But a Phase out of NAFTA would need to happen If we wanted to get back to where we where 50 years ago.

Chris




"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry


Re: King George W still in the news
Tuesday, July 14, 2009 5:57 PM on j-body.org
.....America was doing good 50 years ago right?


-Red-
Re: King George W still in the news
Tuesday, July 14, 2009 5:57 PM on j-body.org
Quote:

its getting to this because of NAFTA.... the idea that one country can make it just as good as another.... I'm sorry, but I'm a more efficient woodworker than 99% of the chinamen.... my quality is a whole lot better. as far as lumber is concerned, chinese plywood sucks.... russian birch is good.....hard to come by...the Cadilliac of pllywood.....just personal examples... as far as china though, with furniture they jack the price up to maximize profit..... in simple terms you pay the equivalent for chinese made sh!t as you do for american quality....its just that with the chinese they're able to pocket more money than with americans....

You're on the right track.

Quote:

so an example of this would be kia starting at $8,888 as opposed to chevy's starting at $16,888?

or furniture?.... the point being that kia has cheaper labor than chevrolet, hence why their vehicles can be sold at cheaper prices? am I on the right track?

I made the previous post thinking about the chinese made American flags being the same price as the American made American flags....




Those two would be a bad example as it has to many variables.
Lets look at something simple, and what happened to me over at Walmart like 3 months ago. I was looking at electrical tape for my HIDs. I went to the car section and saw e-tape made by this American company with a duck logo but was made in china, the price was $3.79. Being that I was not happy that it was made in China, I went to the home improvement section and sure enough the duck brand was there followed by the American company 3M and also the tape was made in USA. Price $3.69. Now there was no sale, rollback, and both had the same yardage. Clear choice which to buy, and example that building outside will only benefit the top of that corporation NOT the consumer.



Quote:

so the answer is not repealing nafta....its just lowering taxes to where companies can afford to profit in america?

Do this if you want to further their profit and further your chance of re-election.
Simple economics. You can lower all the taxes all you want until you turn blue in the face, but if nobody is buying your product and there is no demand because consumers can not afford it, what makes you think that companies will put "wanted ads" out?


THE POLITICALLY INCORRECT ONE.

Re: King George W still in the news
Tuesday, July 14, 2009 6:11 PM on j-body.org
okay so we phase out nafta?

what are you talking about wanted ads? I said nothing about wanted ads...lol..... when I say companies, I'm talking about manufacturing.... and if taxes are lowered, wouldn't that leave some room for consumers to afford to buy products? People ain't going to buy cheap crap either....

there's nothing wrong with companies profiting... thats why they're in business.... but when they're making in china and selling crap to america for the same price or higher, whats the benefit to america?


-Red-
Re: King George W still in the news
Tuesday, July 14, 2009 7:37 PM on j-body.org
Yes, phase out NAFTA.
Wanted ads, as in "jobs," which you spoke of on the 1st page.
If you lower taxes to the middle class, you (may) have more room for them to afford to buy more.
Nothing wrong with companies profiting, but the question is how far are you willing to go to maximize profit?
The benefit to America is minimal to none, only a select few benefit, and it is not America as whole.


THE POLITICALLY INCORRECT ONE.

Re: King George W still in the news
Wednesday, July 15, 2009 8:19 AM on j-body.org
now consider this....

manufacturing and sowing back in america..... people need clothes, we're not a bunch of nudist...(plus the wrong ones would be running around naked)....furniture manufacturing, textiles....sowing... it may not pay as good as a exec or ceo....but its a job... its security...its a paycheck which means you can spend it on whatever you want to...

lemme just tell my story: when my dad started his business, he started making furniture right out of the living room. my moms dad (my grandad) seen a potential and helped my dad build a building. but the first few years, my dad still held down a second shift job (nautilus making exercise equipment).... mom worked at hanes sowing... if it wasn't for those low paying jobs and the security they offered, my dad wouldn't have been able to manage his money to where he could break free of them and start his own business...

and yes everyone deserves a home.... a place to rest their head.... not everyone deserves a house.... there is a difference between a home and a house...

so basically my dad has pursued his version of hapiness.... his American dream. but unfortunately, nafta believes that furniture and manufacturing belong in other countries, because its cheaper labor..... but yet we still pay the same price (if not higher due to inflation) for lower quality items....


-Red-
Re: King George W still in the news
Wednesday, July 15, 2009 9:59 AM on j-body.org
so then if we repeal nafta, do we then kick out all the foreign companies that have buildings in the u.s. budwiser gone, all toyota honda plants, gone any other foreign owned company gone. welcome to a great depression.


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Re: King George W still in the news
Wednesday, July 15, 2009 10:35 AM on j-body.org
That is not what NAFTA is.



THE POLITICALLY INCORRECT ONE.

Re: King George W still in the news
Wednesday, July 15, 2009 10:53 AM on j-body.org
North America(n) Free Trade Agreement: basically we give you all of our "2nd/3rd class jobs" for free.....lol.....


-Red-
Re: King George W still in the news
Wednesday, July 15, 2009 1:58 PM on j-body.org
well this whole post seemed to turn into bringing all our jobs back from overseas and just doing things in the us. so doesnt it make sence then that you would kick out all the companies in the us who are owned overseas. wouldnt that be the "fair" thing to do?


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Re: King George W still in the news
Wednesday, July 15, 2009 2:20 PM on j-body.org
Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:


Those two would be a bad example as it has to many variables.
Lets look at something simple, and what happened to me over at Walmart like 3 months ago. I was looking at electrical tape for my HIDs. I went to the car section and saw e-tape made by this American company with a duck logo but was made in china, the price was $3.79. Being that I was not happy that it was made in China, I went to the home improvement section and sure enough the duck brand was there followed by the American company 3M and also the tape was made in USA. Price $3.69. Now there was no sale, rollback, and both had the same yardage. Clear choice which to buy, and example that building outside will only benefit the top of that corporation NOT the consumer.

are you seriously basing your whole view of economics on one example? because if it were truly the case that the two products, made in different countries, were equal in price, then that is definitely the exception and not the norm. businesses do not move overseas just so they can charge the same as they were before--they do so to lower their costs, allowing them to lower their prices which, in turn, makes them more competitive than their counterparts who are not able to lower their prices. sure, they may make slightly more profit per item, but the overall cost of the item decreases drastically compared to it being made in-country, with the overall goal of gaining a larger market share for that company..

in your tape example above you are still missing factors in deciphering which is a true reflection in profit. perhaps tape was originally $4.69 for the us brand, with a profit margin of $1.69 per roll. the chinese manufactured brand could be made for $2.00 per roll, so they put their price at a comparable profit level, at $3.79 per roll. doing so forced the american brand to lower their prices in order to compete, significantly lowering their profit margins.

now both brands are competitively priced, but that price is much lower than it was originally--before the cheaper brand from an overseas manufacturer was available. since you do not have the necessary data to evaluate, you cannot simply state that the top of the corporation is keeping all of the money and not passing along savings to the consumer. furthermore, insinuating that to be the case borders on a conspiracy theory, and is not a true reflection of the tenets of economics.






Re: King George W still in the news
Wednesday, July 15, 2009 2:59 PM on j-body.org
since you drew a conclusion n this forum and brought it to another one, I'll stop bothering everyone with my ignorance....


-Red-
Re: King George W still in the news
Wednesday, July 15, 2009 3:20 PM on j-body.org
sndsgood wrote:

well this whole post seemed to turn into bringing all our jobs back from overseas and just doing things in the us. so doesnt it make sence then that you would kick out all the companies in the us who are owned overseas. wouldnt that be the "fair" thing to do?


Hell no!

I would GIVE the company over to the AMERICANS who are running it.

Kinda like how we took possession of the Philipiens back in the day.

dontch-ya-know?


Chris




"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry


Re: King George W still in the news
Wednesday, July 15, 2009 4:08 PM on j-body.org
Taetsch Z-24 wrote:

I would GIVE the company over to the AMERICANS who are running it.

Why not give it to the unions? That's what Obama seems to go for.

I see no problem with a company owned overseas employing people here. The bottom line is that the jobs are still in this country. Since everyone hates CEOs, maybe that system is better, since the CEOs won't be in this country.







Re: King George W still in the news
Wednesday, July 15, 2009 4:41 PM on j-body.org
Quote:

are you seriously basing your whole view of economics on one example? because if it were truly the case that the two products, made in different countries, were equal in price, then that is definitely the exception and not the norm. businesses do not move overseas just so they can charge the same as they were before--they do so to lower their costs, allowing them to lower their prices which, in turn, makes them more competitive than their counterparts who are not able to lower their prices. sure, they may make slightly more profit per item, but the overall cost of the item decreases drastically compared to it being made in-country, with the overall goal of gaining a larger market share for that company..

You named it, does not want pay a reasonable salaries... cough- costs- cough .

Quote:

in your tape example above you are still missing factors in deciphering which is a true reflection in profit. perhaps tape was originally $4.69 for the us brand, with a profit margin of $1.69 per roll. the chinese manufactured brand could be made for $2.00 per roll, so they put their price at a comparable profit level, at $3.79 per roll. doing so forced the american brand to lower their prices in order to compete, significantly lowering their profit margins.

It was an example of what I experienced with two comparable products. Unfortunately, I can not compare more Made in USA labels as it's a endangered species and rarity.

Quote:

now both brands are competitively priced, but that price is much lower than it was originally--before the cheaper brand from an overseas manufacturer was available. since you do not have the necessary data to evaluate, you cannot simply state that the top of the corporation is keeping all of the money and not passing along savings to the consumer. furthermore, insinuating that to be the case borders on a conspiracy theory, and is not a true reflection of the tenets of economics.

Pre 1980 US economic history would prove your whole argument the opposite.

The question lies who do you want to be better off: management or workers?
IMO after Corporations tasted idea of building overseas, the only way I see manufacturing coming back here like the good old days, is if they reinstate slavery again.




THE POLITICALLY INCORRECT ONE.

Re: King George W still in the news
Wednesday, July 15, 2009 5:39 PM on j-body.org
the first step to get manufacturing to come back to america is to get rid of unions. they are the biggest factor in sending them overseas to begin with.

the second step is to give tax breaks to companies that do manufacture here while leveling heavier burdens on those that do not.

the third step is to stop electing jackasses that are willing to sell their countrymen out to foreign interests.

Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:

You named it, does not want pay a reasonable salaries... cough- costs- cough .

companies have no problem giving reasonable salaries to american workers but, like in point one above, the unions strangle companies to the point that they have to look elsewhere. restrict or limit unions so people dont get $20 an hour to push a broom or turn a wrench. then put tariffs on foreign made stuff so that the end price is more comparable to us made items.

but more to the point, outsourcing isnt inherently bad. but like i said, what we need to do is give companies a reason to stay here. if i own a business and some chinese or mexican is willing to do the same job as an american for pennies on the dollar, how can i say no to that when there is no incentive to refuse?

Quote:


It was an example of what I experienced with two comparable products. Unfortunately, I can not compare more Made in USA labels as it's a endangered species and rarity.

you wont be able to find many examples like that because they simply dont exist. american made costs more 99 times out of a 100, if not more.


Quote:


Pre 1980 US economic history would prove your whole argument the opposite.

The question lies who do you want to be better off: management or workers?
IMO after Corporations tasted idea of building overseas, the only way I see manufacturing coming back here like the good old days, is if they reinstate slavery again.

no, the basics of economics in manufacturing are the same pre-1980 and post. if it werent, then when henry ford championed the assembly line he would have still charged the same for model Ts as before. but he didnt....instead he lowered the price drastically, which made them more affordable so that millions of americans could buy one instead of only rich people being able to own automobiles. thats how it has been in every industry since the beginning of time. new processes and materials that allow for cheaper production of items are passed onto the final customer. no, not every penny saved by the manufacturer is passed to the customer, but enough is passed along that it is a fair balance.

and im not sure what youre getting at when you ask who do i want to be better off. if someone works to further their self by going to school or working hard for a promotion, then that person should be rewarded more than the person who has a GED and is working at the bottom of the chain because he is either too lazy or too stupid to progress any further. if we all got the same regardless of how much we put in, well thats pretty much communism.





Re: King George W still in the news
Wednesday, July 15, 2009 10:58 PM on j-body.org
(tabs) wrote:

the first step to get manufacturing to come back to america is to get rid of unions. they are the biggest factor in sending them overseas to begin with.

If the union is like GM's UAW then yes.
Quote:

the second step is to give tax breaks to companies that do manufacture here while leveling heavier burdens on those that do not.

I've been pretty much been saying that all along, basically go against Reagan's tax loop holes (followed even to today) if you build outside.
Quote:

the third step is to stop electing jackasses that are willing to sell their countrymen out to foreign interests.

Yep.
Quote:

companies have no problem giving reasonable salaries to american workers but, like in point one above, the unions strangle companies to the point that they have to look elsewhere. restrict or limit unions so people dont get $20 an hour to push a broom or turn a wrench. then put tariffs on foreign made stuff so that the end price is more comparable to us made items. but more to the point, outsourcing isnt inherently bad. but like i said, what we need to do is give companies a reason to stay here. if i own a business and some chinese or mexican is willing to do the same job as an american for pennies on the dollar, how can i say no to that when there is no incentive to refuse?

Not all unions is like GM's UAW, so we can't use that blanket statement. A reasonable wage limit sounds ok, if the company progress, then everybody (top-to bottom) gets wage increase.
Quote:

you wont be able to find many examples like that because they simply dont exist. american made costs more 99 times out of a 100, if not more.

If you want to believe that, than that's your choice. But I can see that being true when you have to give your CEOs corporate jets, extravagant vacations, millions dollars salaries, retirement, and pay your workers $35-50K year. Then yea, I can see American products costing more.
Quote:

no, the basics of economics in manufacturing are the same pre-1980 and post. if it werent, then when henry ford championed the assembly line he would have still charged the same for model Ts as before. but he didnt....instead he lowered the price drastically, which made them more affordable so that millions of americans could buy one instead of only rich people being able to own automobiles. thats how it has been in every industry since the beginning of time. new processes and materials that allow for cheaper production of items are passed onto the final customer. no, not every penny saved by the manufacturer is passed to the customer, but enough is passed along that it is a fair balance.
Efficiency and mass production is what made great manufacturing at Ford and in return a low price for the masses while still maintaining a sizable profit.

Quote:

and im not sure what youre getting at when you ask who do i want to be better off. if someone works to further their self by going to school or working hard for a promotion, then that person should be rewarded more than the person who has a GED and is working at the bottom of the chain because he is either too lazy or too stupid to progress any further. if we all got the same regardless of how much we put in, well thats pretty much communism.


I ask that as to where you want to side. Do you want to help the top, at whatever cost, reach/pocket maximum capital, or do you want the bottom still to maintain jobs?
And we love to preach on how one should go up the food chain and progress in education to achieve the top. I agree with that 100%. But we all seem to forget, in order to achieve that you have pay tuition. That job that you worked at in your town and tried to earn money to progress your self was sent to India because the company does not want to pay you $12 p/h and rather pay $0.65 p/h to Ahmed. An example like that is what is ruining this country, so where next... Oh yhea... . "Uncle Sam wants you."




THE POLITICALLY INCORRECT ONE.


Re: King George W still in the news
Wednesday, July 15, 2009 11:08 PM on j-body.org
We have strayed away from the original topic and for me that means I am stopping with that.


THE POLITICALLY INCORRECT ONE.

Re: King George W still in the news
Thursday, July 16, 2009 4:28 AM on j-body.org
Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:

Not all unions is like GM's UAW, so we can't use that blanket statement. A reasonable wage limit sounds ok, if the company progress, then everybody (top-to bottom) gets wage increase.

The majority of them have turned into a similar entity, which is not so much there for the worker anymore. The problems with them are that they mostly line the pockets of the union leaders, and the liberal politicians they support. The draw is the crap they manage to negotiate with companies to get the same wages across the board, regardless of skill level or experience. This also has the side effect of rewarding lazy, sh!tty workers, because they get the same pay and benefits that the guy busting his ass does. Add all of these up, and the company is paying out the ass for manpower that is usually getting the job done with quality and efficiency.
Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:

Efficiency and mass production is what made great manufacturing at Ford and in return a low price for the masses while still maintaining a sizable profit.

Correct. Now look at the other side of the coin, and see what caused those profits to shrink: higher corporate taxes, increased employee costs (due to corrupt unions and higher employment taxes). When other countries with strong manufacturing don't have these problems, we run into a competitive situation which causes profits to shrink considerably, and in most cases, to become non-existent. Then everyone wants to turn around and point the self-righteous finger at the company who moves manufacturing jobs elsewhere, or say that when the company is going bankrupt that their execs are idiots.
Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:

I ask that as to where you want to side. Do you want to help the top, at whatever cost, reach/pocket maximum capital, or do you want the bottom still to maintain jobs?
And we love to preach on how one should go up the food chain and progress in education to achieve the top. I agree with that 100%. But we all seem to forget, in order to achieve that you have pay tuition. That job that you worked at in your town and tried to earn money to progress your self was sent to India because the company does not want to pay you $12 p/h and rather pay $0.65 p/h to Ahmed. An example like that is what is ruining this country, so where next... Oh yhea... . "Uncle Sam wants you."

What's ruining this country is the common belief that people are entitled to so much, not that the "evil corporations" keep getting greedier and greedier. As I've mentioned plenty of times before, the average profit margin of American companies has been shrinking fairly consistently over the years because the costs of doing business here are constantly increasing, while the price people are willing to pay for the goods and services has not kept up with that increase. Everyone wants more for less, but when the companies do what it takes to provide it, those same people start complaining that the companies are just greedy.

The way people used to get ahead was to work harder than most people today can even comprehend, and pay their way. Most of the people in my family worked 2 full time jobs for a long time before getting themselves where they needed to be, and to help their kids have a better life. You'd be hard pressed to find many examples of people willing to do that now.

A final thought to consider: the rich and Corporate America are constantly being vilified in this country. No matter what they do, they are ridiculed and told they shouldn't be where they are, yet they are the ones providing the jobs for the rest of us. As they are being driven out of business or out of the country one by one, people are looking around wondering where all the jobs are. Instead of pointing the finger, maybe people should look at themselves and wonder if they pushed too far. Our culture has swung so far away from personal responsibility that everyone is far to quick to blame anyone but themselves.







Re: King George W still in the news
Thursday, July 16, 2009 5:18 AM on j-body.org
Quiklilcav wrote:

Taetsch Z-24 wrote:

I would GIVE the company over to the AMERICANS who are running it.

Why not give it to the unions? That's what Obama seems to go for.

I see no problem with a company owned overseas employing people here. The bottom line is that the jobs are still in this country. Since everyone hates CEOs, maybe that system is better, since the CEOs won't be in this country.





so we'd handycap our own ceo's by making them keep their business here forcing them to pay higher costs to make products but allow other countries to buy business here and run companies? seems like a bad deciosn to me personally. yeah workers are employed but all the profit goest out of the country. so out of country ceo's continue buying up american business since they are getting the profit, and we wind up with a country owned by foreigners. and we own nothing.



it seems were the land of the free and everyone talks about free will and having freedoms and how disgraceful it is when our freedoms are taken away from us. but because a business wants to open up some shops over seas all the sudden they are evil and should have that right taken away from them. we should punish them and force them to stay here at a higher price even if that causes them to go under because they can't compete on a global scale. sounds stupid to me. it used to be if someone did something better then you you worked that much harder to get better, you busted your ass and did everything you could to be the best. now when that happens it seems people just want to make laws to hurt those companies so you can make your buck. america is getting weak and petty.




goodwrench. there has been a surge of bringing companies back to the states because the quality found overseas has been poor. customer service is one area that is seeing a return to american based workes do to the poor performance overseas. america has to find new ways of making things work instead of trying to cut off the legs of any company that finds a cheaper way of doing things overseas.


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Re: King George W still in the news
Thursday, July 16, 2009 5:29 AM on j-body.org
Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:

If you want to believe that, than that's your choice. But I can see that being true when you have to give your CEOs corporate jets, extravagant vacations, millions dollars salaries, retirement, and pay your workers $35-50K year. Then yea, I can see American products costing more.


Mr.Goodwrench-G.T wrote:

I ask that as to where you want to side. Do you want to help the top, at whatever cost, reach/pocket maximum capital, or do you want the bottom still to maintain jobs?


you seem to have a very tinted view of companies and how they work. i mean you sound like you are actually advocating redistribution of wealth! but quite frankly, the majority of the profit a company makes SHOULD be concentrated at the top!

now a smart company will give out small, yet competitive bonuses or do something similar during the end of a good year to encourage their employees to continue their good work. but to think that it is a necessity to do so is just silly and again goes against the basic tenets of economics. workers work at a company of their own free will. if a company continually treats its employees badly, then they will have a high turn over which will reflect in their finished product as well as their balance sheet. its in a company's best interest to treat their employees well, not the other way around.

i mean are you actually complaining that base line workers get 35-50k a year? thats middle class, sir! people should be able to live very comfortably off of that, and if the spouse works too, then all the better off they will be. but companies dont have a responsibility to make their workers, especially those too lazy or uneducated to further themselves, rich. instead they have a responsibility to pay them what their services are worth. and lets face it, most manufacturing jobs dont require education nor, with the proliferation of robotics in manufacturing, do they even still require a person to work that strenuously.

ceos and upper management make more money because their jobs are harder. yes, i said it: their jobs are harder. sure, they dont labor away 40 hours a week on an assembly line doing the same monotonous thing, but they do work round the clock and each decision they make affects the company's profitability, so they need to be appraised of every angle in order to make a proper decision. that can only come through education and experience. and when its all said and done, the ceo's job is infinitely farther reaching than that of random employee X who is putting a sprocket on a cog 500 times a day.

now i know what youre going to say--youre going to point out GM, AIG, and all of the other corporations that have failed recently. those are the exceptions and not the norm though. how many thousands of corporations are there out there and how many times do you hear about this sort of thing? they are only a drop in the bucket--a very small fraction.

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And we love to preach on how one should go up the food chain and progress in education to achieve the top. I agree with that 100%. But we all seem to forget, in order to achieve that you have pay tuition. That job that you worked at in your town and tried to earn money to progress your self was sent to India because the company does not want to pay you $12 p/h and rather pay $0.65 p/h to Ahmed. An example like that is what is ruining this country, so where next... Oh yhea... . "Uncle Sam wants you."

i worked my way through college by working two jobs. anyone can do it, its not that hard--it just sucks. but people want instant gratification, they dont want to work for something. people come out high school and think they are worth $10-15 an hour because thats how their dad or grandfather did it. its that sort of attitude that is ruining our country, not outsourcing a job to india.

again, the answer is to make it more profitable for a company to keep jobs here by giving tax breaks for staying here and by taxing imports so that the final product is more competitively priced. but as quick pointed out above, americans just want more for less. THAT is the underlying problem and it is one that lies with the american people, not the corporations.





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