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Re: changing the bible
Tuesday, September 15, 2009 12:36 AM on j-body.org
According to the Christian bible..... Im going to Hell...... (especially if you ask a catholic LOL)

I've never been baptized (and never will be)..... I've openly denounced god...... I've taken up arms against my fellow man..... I've had sex out of wedlock, I mean if theres something in the bible other than the "laying down with another man" part..... that says... "if you do this.... you cant go to heaven"... there's a really good chance I've done it...

Try feeling the sadness of a friend dying a violent death at the age of 19 and wishing it was you that died instead.... what kind of god lets the things that happen on this planet happen...... if I ever die and meet god..... I'll call him a F-ing @!#$ to his Omnipotent face.... I show no elegance to someone that allows his followers to experience such horrifying dispare when they dont have too..

Also...... I know what I just said I would do is almost word for word what Satan supposedly did to god.... and if thats true.... I cant blame him..... I would rather spend eternity punishing the wicked than sucking the ass of my god....

Wich is another problem I have...... the devil punishes those who supposedly deserve it....how the hell does that make the devil evil.... if anything.... he is doing the work of god...... but its just the dirty work that god doesn't want to do..... the way its worded.... God needs the devil...... the devil is gods prison warden... I've always had a SEVERE problem with that side of the story..... it just doenst make any logical sense...... wich brings me to the next part...

I've always thought this way.....

Theres religion.... and then there's science... religion is only there to fill in the parts that science hasn't figured out yet.

Im not going to talk about the fact we are only one planet of COUNTLESS others in our universe and beyond...

The only difference between an organized religion and a cult is tax exemption.....

I flat out disbelieve any religion........ so in my mind.... im not worried about believing for safety sakes... and in my opinion.... if you do that... your not a true believer anyway..... so it doesn't count in the eyes of your so called god...

The thing is that I know where I going when I die......... back to wherever the hell I came from before I was born.... or at least some version of it....

I've always had a problem with organized religion..... churches should not have as much money as they do....... and if they really believe in the bible (or whatever book your chosen religion prays too) then changing it in any way should be blasphemy... especially if its changes to suit the churches (or whatever temples) needs....... thats corruption plain and simple...

I dont fault people much for believing in what they want....... its there choice and they have a right too..... and my choice is not to believe in god at all.... or at least in a way that any religion I can think of does....

I consider myself somewhat agnostic.... and have my very own complex ideas on the subject that i came up with on my own..... so I wouldn't truly consider myself and atheist.... but almost all religions religions see me that way.... so I dont have time for them...

Bottom line...... if you truly believe in the bible..... then you should be passionately against changing it in any way... and if your not..... your a hypocrite..






Re: changing the bible
Tuesday, September 15, 2009 5:31 AM on j-body.org


You act like they are changing the original source - which no one is doing(although its very possible the Council of Nicea did exactly that during Christianity's early days). You are talking about a translated version of (hopefully) the original way the word was written.


that is one of my biggest issues. the church has no where near the power it had hundreds of years ago and to think that some high ranking church dude who had the world by the balls and all that power didnt decide he new what was best for mankind and make his own changes seems crazy to me. man has proven itself over and over and over time and time again wether your a peasant in the streets or the highest ranking church official that power corrupts. and to think this is the origonal version to me seems out there. way out there.


the original meaning. "Man" may have been referring to mankind, but no all people who read it as is will interpret it as such. Many people take that "man" quite literal.


or maybe god literally meant man? maybe he was a women hater? i know a bit much but were sitting here and saying god knows the reason why he does things and that we dont have the capabilities to know his true reasonings. but we know exactly what he meant when he wrote this. it just sounds egotistical to believe we knew what he meant, and that we have the knowledge to change what he wrote but at the same time going, well were not smart enough to know why he does OTHER things, but on THIS were certain.

A translated version - almost by definition - is going to have (even if only slightly) a corrupted message from the originalNow it you believe that one of the primary purpose of the Bible is to help save those who don't know God's word, and yet expect to give those same people a Bible whose actual meaning isn't as clear in the way its written in English - well think about it. You expect someone to read something, see something written in a way that requires study to truly understand, and be saved from that? Just how many people do you think might read that - and the way its written doesn't make the most sense or just gives off the wrong message - so they decide this book is nonsense? You just lost an opportunity to save a soul... and for what? For some odd notion that as it is written now is exactly "as it was intended" to be written? Just how would you know God's intent for a translation into a language that didn't exist when his word was given to us? You can't and you don't. To admit you don't know something you don't know, that is a sign of humility. We are not called to be arrogant but humble instead.

you'd think something as important as going to heaven versus spending an eternity in hell would be a good pushing point for learning the language to be as close to your god as possible. its like people are just watering down their religion to get that one extra pew filled. again, if this is yoru religion and everything you believe in, isnt it arrogant to water it down to get the lazy who dont want to put any work into it to be saved?



I'd also note that while we are called to believe in God, we have not been called to believe so strongly in one particular translation of his original word. Think about it. The truth today is that many non-biblical beliefs (often times political) are integrated into Churches in America - this is only a tiny example. But the broader trend sickens me..



but most people base their entire religion off of that book and the book is based off of a translation. if you talk to anyone about anything related to religion, about the first thing they will do is to quote some piece of the bible. and that is their proof that they are right. that is their basis of religion. that book is their proof. and to change that book which means to them the truth, then you are changing that truth. your right the whole political thing in the churches is big and it also sickens me and im not a very religious person. its just people trying to use religion to get what they want. maybe if religion wasn't so watered down then you'd only have people in religion who really believe instead of the majority of weekend warrior church zealots.








the point i was trying to make is that with all the corruption that we see in the church system today it is a bit scary to lean on one faction when they have proven to be suspect. I dont want anyone thinking i'm arrogant cause i'm not lol if that was wht you where saying. but yeah i was basing it around how jacked up things can be and have been by the church this decade.



dont you mean by the corruption of the church past and present not just today.








and just so everyone knows, this post wasn't started to bash religion or to disprove it, i just thought it was a great piece to debate on since changing of the bibles is a big battle even in religious groups. and i want to thank everyone for the most part on keeping up a good line of communication and not turning this into a bitch fest.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/sndsgood/ https://www.facebook.com/#!/Square1Photography
Re: changing the bible
Tuesday, September 15, 2009 11:43 AM on j-body.org
Weebel wrote:

According to the Christian bible..... Im going to Hell...... (especially if you ask a catholic LOL)

I've never been baptized (and never will be)..... I've openly denounced god...... I've taken up arms against my fellow man..... I've had sex out of wedlock, I mean if theres something in the bible other than the "laying down with another man" part..... that says... "if you do this.... you cant go to heaven"... there's a really good chance I've done it...
Would you like a cookie?

Weebel wrote:

Try feeling the sadness of a friend dying a violent death at the age of 19 and wishing it was you that died instead.... what kind of god lets the things that happen on this planet happen...... if I ever die and meet god..... I'll call him a F-ing @!#$ to his Omnipotent face.... I show no elegance to someone that allows his followers to experience such horrifying dispare when they dont have too..

Also...... I know what I just said I would do is almost word for word what Satan supposedly did to god.... and if thats true.... I cant blame him..... I would rather spend eternity punishing the wicked than sucking the ass of my god....
So we have another "the world sucks therefore no God" type. Its fine is you don't want to believe but this is probably the most common and pathetic reason I hear as to why some people don't. You're friend died "a violent death?" Doesn't that mean a HUMAN chose to kill your friend? Therefore your friend died as a result of choices made my a human - which happens to also account for the bulk of @!#$ty conditions on this planet.

How could God allow this/that? Well the opposite of allow is to disallow - which directly requires God to take action and removes choice/free will in the matter. God gives us free will - but that requires a mostly hands off approach to mean anything at all. I don't see God being directly responsible for every leaf blowing in the wind. I'm not sure why anyone (including many Christians). I don't think God has a direct hand in most things - probably just important things(and I don't mean what is "important" to you). Its not that I think your friend died "because God has a plan" or "for a reason" other than the reason that someone on earth made a choice.

Someone else might have also had their mother die of cancer or whatever - that doesn't mean that "God took away my mom" so much as biological mechanisms existed that killed her. Natural doesn't always mean directly decided by God. If you don't want to believe in God then that's your choice - but your anger is pretty damn ignorant. Death happens - its a part of life. Get over it. All that live will die - the only difference between your life and your friend's is that your accumulation of memories has not stopped yet. This is true no matter if you are religious/agnostic/atheists. Get used to it.

Yes, I am pretty cold about that value of life - its not a Christian things just my own realism.

Weebel wrote:

Wich is another problem I have...... the devil punishes those who supposedly deserve it....how the hell does that make the devil evil.... if anything.... he is doing the work of god...... but its just the dirty work that god doesn't want to do..... the way its worded.... God needs the devil...... the devil is gods prison warden... I've always had a SEVERE problem with that side of the story..... it just doenst make any logical sense...... wich brings me to the next part...
It doesn't make sense what you said because... well I'm not sure where you got that idea from anyways? Certainly not from the Bible...

Weebel wrote:

I've always thought this way.....

Theres religion.... and then there's science... religion is only there to fill in the parts that science hasn't figured out yet.

Im not going to talk about the fact we are only one planet of COUNTLESS others in our universe and beyond...

The only difference between an organized religion and a cult is tax exemption.....

I flat out disbelieve any religion........ so in my mind.... im not worried about believing for safety sakes... and in my opinion.... if you do that... your not a true believer anyway..... so it doesn't count in the eyes of your so called god...

The thing is that I know where I going when I die......... back to wherever the hell I came from before I was born.... or at least some version of it....
Religion is not always at odds with science(if you are talking about absolute science and not certain science based belief structures). I believe God created the universe. I believe life has changed since then. I'm no stranger to mathematics nor physics. I just think that most major evolutions being completely random... is pretty damn unlikely(even if slightly possible). I think God probably had a hand in designing and doing major genetic twinking on organisms on this planet. I think some degree of random genetic mutation/evolution occurs too. Nothing I believe contradicts anything scientifically proven. If it ever is (unlikely as that is), I'll have to twink my beliefs. If you believe in purely random evolution or semi-guided evolution - it is an unprovable hypothesis (aka belief) either way,

Weebel wrote:

I've always had a problem with organized religion..... churches should not have as much money as they do....... and if they really believe in the bible (or whatever book your chosen religion prays too) then changing it in any way should be blasphemy... especially if its changes to suit the churches (or whatever temples) needs....... thats corruption plain and simple...

I dont fault people much for believing in what they want....... its there choice and they have a right too..... and my choice is not to believe in god at all.... or at least in a way that any religion I can think of does....

I consider myself somewhat agnostic.... and have my very own complex ideas on the subject that i came up with on my own..... so I wouldn't truly consider myself and atheist.... but almost all religions religions see me that way.... so I dont have time for them...

Bottom line...... if you truly believe in the bible..... then you should be passionately against changing it in any way... and if your not..... your a hypocrite..
Hypocrisy doesn't even come into play. You might want to read some of my earlier posts here - no one is "changing the bible" technically - just fixing translation interpretations. Believing in the Bible and believing in a translation are separate things. Would you complain if Google updates their web page translation service to do a better job translating? Their service changes no website - it just makes it semi-understandable in other languages. Its the same thing.





Re: changing the bible
Tuesday, September 15, 2009 10:56 PM on j-body.org
OK... some of what I said might not be on par with the bible..... but thats the way I feel regardless........


And just for the people that keep saying that maybee I should read the bible again and understand what im against better........ well y'all can screw off..... I've been to churches enough and read enough as a kid to get a basic understanding...... and thats well than more of enough for me ti easily realize its a huge load if BS.

as for the free will.... I'll give you that..... but god supposedly created this world..... so why did he make it suck soo much...... but either way I dont believe in him for my own logical reasons so that doesnt really matter,,,,

Not that I meant to have an outburst there..... im just really against organized religion..... it's caused more pain than grace in the world...... its a bad thing.....

And yes I would Like a cookie..... thank you.....

Well in an attempt to stay on topic......

I dont think the bible should have ever even been translated..... or changed at all from its original form.... its followers should have learned the language that it was written in so there wouldnt have been anything lost in translation.....

Hell..... Jewish people take the effort to learn Hebrew..... for example...




Re: changing the bible
Saturday, September 19, 2009 2:55 PM on j-body.org
Knoxfire Esquire wrote:

Having being raised Catholic, I've always had a problem with evangelicals and how hippy dippy and new agey their version of Christianity is. For people who pride themselves on being Conservatives, they sure aren't very traditional about their religion. It's all foo-foo about having personal relationships with Jesus and the joy of God and all that. So dumbing down the bible is yet another part of their goal to transform God into a generic Hollywood movie star. A simple archetype with no nuance or personality.

heh. You ought to hear what they say about Catholics!




Re: changing the bible
Monday, October 05, 2009 1:16 AM on j-body.org

"I've never been baptized (and never will be)..... I've openly denounced god...... I've taken up arms against my fellow man..... I've had sex out of wedlock, I mean if theres something in the bible other than the "laying down with another man" part..... that says... "if you do this.... you cant go to heaven"... there's a really good chance I've done it..."

FYI...
Romans 3:23 (New International Version)
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
THAT INCLUDES BRIAN WARREN, PAUL SIEBERT, AND MYSELF, AS WELL AS THE REST OF THE WORLD.




if I ever die and meet god..... I'll call him a F-ing @!#$ to his Omnipotent face.... I show no elegance to someone that allows his followers to experience such horrifying dispare when they dont have too..


YOU WILL FIND THAT THERE IS NO IF...NO EXCEPTIONS



Also...... I know what I just said I would do is almost word for word what Satan supposedly did to god.... and if thats true.... I cant blame him..... I would rather spend eternity punishing the wicked than sucking the ass of my god....

Wich is another problem I have...... the devil punishes those who supposedly deserve it....how the hell does that make the devil evil.... if anything.... he is doing the work of god...... but its just the dirty work that god doesn't want to do..... the way its worded.... God needs the devil...... the devil is gods prison warden... I've always had a SEVERE problem with that side of the story..... it just doenst make any logical sense...... wich brings me to the next part...


ALSO ANOTHER MISCONCEPTION... HELL IS NOT ABOUT TORTURE. TORTURE IS DEFINATELY A PART OF IT. SATAN IS NOT SOME SORT OF RULING FIGUREHEAD. HE WILL BE JUST AS LONELY AND MISERABLE WITH OUR GOD AS EVVERYONE ELSE.


I dont fault people much for believing in what they want....... its there choice and they have a right too..... and my choice is not to believe in god at all.... or at least in a way that any religion I can think of does....


I consider myself somewhat agnostic.... and have my very own complex ideas on the subject that i came up with on my own..... so I wouldn't truly consider myself and atheist.... but almost all religions religions see me that way.... so I dont have time for them...



SIMPLY BELIEVING DOES NOT MAKE SOMETHING TRUE.



Philippians 3:10 (Amplified Bible)
10[For my determined purpose is] that I may know Him [that I may progressively become more deeply and intimately acquainted with Him, perceiving and recognizing and understanding the wonders of His Person more strongly and more clearly], and that I may in that same way come to know the power outflowing from His resurrection [[a]which it exerts over believers], and that I may so share His sufferings as to be continually transformed [in spirit into His likeness even] to His death, [in the hope]
Re: changing the bible
Monday, October 05, 2009 10:12 AM on j-body.org
I've always believed that if there is a God (and yes I am a believer and go to Church on a regular basis) God will judge your heart. I always say and have heard the best actors are the people in church. People can say all their life that they are dedicated to God, show in many actions that they are dedicated but one never knows what exactly is in their heart and in their mind.

As far as people going to hell for living a great life and being a "good person" but they didnt say anything about God I do not believe that, what happens to people in other countries and especially 3rd world countries who have never heard the word or about God, how are they to know???

Catholics believe if you are not baptised you will not be able to enter heaven, I believe this is false, hence one of the reasons I am no longer catholic, what happens to a pure baby although born into sin, but pure of any wrong doings, catholics say they go into waiting/pergatory (spell check) hmm I thought Jesus died for all of our sins and opened up the gates of heaven thus conguering death/pergatory. Catholics believe you must do confession to a priest, I do not believe this because the Bible states that you can confess at anytime anywhere just by praying to God, I do believe there are many instances in the Bible that state many people doing this and the Lord asking us to do this.

As far as rewriting the Bible I am all for it as long as the message is the same, there are many different translations out there, its all about keeping the message the same but being able to reach those who do not understand the word just like what NIV does.

---> Off Topic/ You must keep up with the times, language even 10 yrs ago is not what it is today. I have been in many rock bands out there which would be considered "heavy metal" but the message behind the music was christian...look at the Devil Wears Prada for instance...just because people use heavy metal for other things doesnt mean we cant use the gift of "music" to do our good deeds regardless of how it sounds.

Just my $0.02

Hope i didnt offened anyone.



Re: changing the bible
Monday, October 05, 2009 11:33 PM on j-body.org
Torres. You have brought up one of the greatest debates, and usually the biggest hang-up that most suffer from when it comes to
their beliefs about God, and who He is, and what He is capable of.

Though it might not seem fair, here is the simple truth, and what the whole salvation "thing" boils down to. God is sovereign. God is omnipotent (all-powerful), omnipresent (always-present), and omniscient (all-knowing). What God says is Truth, not truth because He choses not to lie, but Truth because He says it.

Where I'm going with this is, who are we that we can argue with God. God has no limits. God created law that we are subject to. He created physics, biology, language, etc. so that this universe is ordered and not chaotic. He did so, that we could see just how intricate and complex everything is. Think about gravity. No matter where you are, you cannot escape it. Even in space, it's laws cannot be defied.

The book of Job is probably one of the greatest examples of our relationship with God in the sense of why some suffer, some seem not to suffer, who is given salvation, and who isn't.

We aren't meant to fully grasp who God is, and what His logic is. If we were able to, then we would be wiser than God himself. He is not meant to fit inside our box.

God will have mercy an whom He chooses. God has mercy on all who choose Him. We are in no position to argue. He has given us specific guidelines on what it takes to achieve salvation ourselves, His commands. Those are God's laws. It is our free will that we are able to chose not to follow all of them. Make one mistake, and you are a sinner. God in His infinite mercy gave all of us sinners Himself in man form as a sacrifice to atone for all sin. All He asks is that we acknowledge Him in who He is, and love Him with our whole heart. He alone, being perfect and being God, can remove all sin for all people.

Just because we don't like/understand why God made it this way, does not mean that we know better than He does. Fact of the matter is this, God loves us. He loves every single person that He has ever created. If He didn't love you, He wouldn't have created you. Our sin is what separates us from God. If God wanted, He would have made us into little robots that never sinned. If that were the case, would would not be sinning because it would be our nature not to. God wants us not to sin out of our love for Him. Robots don't love.

Heaven is not about "being in Heaven." Heaven is not about "not going to Hell." Heaven is not about "spending time with your loved ones." Heaven is about being with the one and only God. Those other things are definitely a part of it. Those that say that they don't care, really don't know what Heaven and Hell are really like.

Think about right now, and what it's like not knowing for certain, or at all, that there is a God, and He loves us very much, and simply wants us to be with Him. Hell is knowing for certain that there is a God, and you blew your chance to spend all eternity with Him in all His wonder and glory.


Philippians 3:10 (Amplified Bible)
10[For my determined purpose is] that I may know Him [that I may progressively become more deeply and intimately acquainted with Him, perceiving and recognizing and understanding the wonders of His Person more strongly and more clearly], and that I may in that same way come to know the power outflowing from His resurrection [[a]which it exerts over believers], and that I may so share His sufferings as to be continually transformed [in spirit into His likeness even] to His death, [in the hope]
Re: changing the bible
Tuesday, October 06, 2009 12:04 AM on j-body.org
A truly omniscient God would not use fear of eternal damnation to inspire his children to do well. Fear and intimidation are tools of a bygone era of man.

A truly omnipresent God would not torture his followers via priests who abuse children. Such abuse has chased more from the Church than any other recent event.

A truly omnipotent God would not fault his children for their imperfections. My God is not a mean, vindictive entity. He is a loving, caring parent who understands my shortcomings and would never abuse me for them, for he created those shortcomings.





Re: changing the bible
Tuesday, October 06, 2009 1:39 AM on j-body.org
Mr. Hahn,

You are right about God not using fear and intimidation as a motivation to do well. God's standard expects us to not be "good people" but PERFECT (sinless) people. He gave us this example in Jesus, whom we are to imitate. However, don't let yourself be convinced that God who saves is not the same God who also destroys. Our motivation should not be simply to go to Heaven but to, as my signature states, know God better, and have an intimate relationship with Him. That is His motivation.

God does not personally torture those who do not accept Him as He is. It is the sin of the individual which causes to be tortured, and the separation from God is the torture. The evil that occurs here on Earth, you specifically mentioned sexually abusive clergy, is a result of just how separated we are from God in His Holiness. Sin separates man from God personally and collectively.

God did not create people with imperfection, He created us with the capacity to have the choice between Him or sin. Sin is what corrupts. As sinners, it is our nature to sin, but as previously stated, God expects perfection. His mercy is our only chance at redemption. God loves us regardless of our sin, but He is JUST. He has created law so that He will be glorified, so that we will recognize who is truly in control. Again, who are we to challenge God's perfect and unchangeable plan. ("Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand."-Job 38:4)


Philippians 3:10 (Amplified Bible)
10[For my determined purpose is] that I may know Him [that I may progressively become more deeply and intimately acquainted with Him, perceiving and recognizing and understanding the wonders of His Person more strongly and more clearly], and that I may in that same way come to know the power outflowing from His resurrection [[a]which it exerts over believers], and that I may so share His sufferings as to be continually transformed [in spirit into His likeness even] to His death, [in the hope]
Re: changing the bible
Tuesday, October 06, 2009 8:58 AM on j-body.org
I just found this thread the other day and have been reading through it and have finally reached this point.

Barrett, God has truly blessed you with the knowledge and the ability to debate (as many others). You have done well, far better than I would have.

As for the topic at hand, as has been stated before, the purpose of the change isn't to change what the original languages state, but rather to put it in a simpler form in today's language to make it a little more comprehensible. The King James Version (KJV) wasn't the first English translation, There were two prior translations that were "authorized" before it. They were the Great Bible and the Bishop's Bible. The KJV was just an evolution of those prior versions, but still a translation from the original languages. There are other English translations, the BibleGateway.com lists 22 different English translations. The New International Version (NIV) is the version that is currently being updated. It is also the most popular translation after the KJV. Even the KJV has been updated with the New King James Version (NKJV) and the 21st Century King James Version.

Torres, On the topic of baptism, yes you do need to be baptized, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." (Mark 16:16 NIV). Also, "Brothers, what shall we do?" Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."
(Acts 2:37–39). Read Christian Baptism: It's Real Meaning, a good read concerning baptism.







Re: changing the bible
Tuesday, October 06, 2009 9:40 AM on j-body.org
Madjack,

Thank you for the compliment! It's very encouraging so meet a brother, no matter the venue. I'm encouraged to see fellow believers so devout and educated step out and say it so proudly as you and a few others have done in this forum.

I am familiar with Biblegateway.com myself, and often catching myself cross-referencing the various translations. I once heard J. Vernon Mcgee in one of his broadcasts explain that he himself held firmly to KJV, but owned nearly every other translation. In my own experience, I personally enjoy reading more than one translation at any given time. Some of the language that is used in different settings I feel really can bring God's word to a greater understanding for myself.




Also, for any of those who have a genuine interest in what God's word is and truly says, I would suggest that you pick up any mainstream translation and open it up (KJV, NIV, NLT, NCV). More importantly I would encourage you to pray before so. Nothing too elaborate is required. Just talk to God like He is right there with you, because He is. When you seek God with your whole heart, He is what you'll find.

Matthew 7:7-8 - 7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened."

also

Luke 11:11-13 11"Which of you fathers, if your son asks for[a] a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"




Philippians 3:10 (Amplified Bible)
10[For my determined purpose is] that I may know Him [that I may progressively become more deeply and intimately acquainted with Him, perceiving and recognizing and understanding the wonders of His Person more strongly and more clearly], and that I may in that same way come to know the power outflowing from His resurrection [[a]which it exerts over believers], and that I may so share His sufferings as to be continually transformed [in spirit into His likeness even] to His death, [in the hope]
Re: changing the bible
Tuesday, October 06, 2009 10:19 AM on j-body.org
Barrett Welton wrote:

Mr. Hahn,

God does not personally torture those who do not accept Him as He is. It is the sin of the individual which causes to be tortured, and the separation from God is the torture. The evil that occurs here on Earth, you specifically mentioned sexually abusive clergy, is a result of just how separated we are from God in His Holiness. Sin separates man from God personally and collectively.

God did not create people with imperfection, He created us with the capacity to have the choice between Him or sin. Sin is what corrupts. As sinners, it is our nature to sin, but as previously stated, God expects perfection. His mercy is our only chance at redemption. God loves us regardless of our sin, but He is JUST. He has created law so that He will be glorified, so that we will recognize who is truly in control. Again, who are we to challenge God's perfect and unchangeable plan. ("Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand."-Job 38:4)



A couple scriptures to back up what you are saying. Romans 1:28: Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, He abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done. (NLT)/ And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; (NKJV).

That goes to say that, our natural minds as humans corrupted by sin is to sin, and since God is not sin, and He cannot and will not dwell in it, He takes His hand off us when we do things according to the flesh and the flesh is going to do what the flesh wants to do;

Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

these are the things that the world has corrupted our fleshly vessels to do, so when we see these things go on we have to realize that there is a spirit leading that person to commit the act. But Christ came and through Him the flesh is crucified, meaning that all those iniquities, strongholds etc. are no longer, but that is only when we abide in the Holy Spirit. Galatians 5:24.

Also to respond to what Mr. Hahn said about God being like a father; Hebrews 12:5-11 scripture reveals that God chastens or corrects who He loves, just like a father or a parent, but we respect that correction from people on earth but the correction from the Father comes when we get out of line and He allows certain things to happen or not happen to get our attention to get back in line. Don't be discouraged because we all go through it, and we all have a chance to get it right with Him, we just have to walk in it. God does not fault us, He holds us accountable, because we know the Truth, and since we know the Truth the accountability is higher, because we have a high standard to meet or imitate the likeness of which is Jesus Christ. I hope that was clear, I kinda rushed through it.





"I've got veins, that carry blood all over my bady"
Re: changing the bible
Tuesday, October 06, 2009 10:41 AM on j-body.org
MadJack wrote:


Torres, On the topic of baptism, yes you do need to be baptized, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." (Mark 16:16 NIV). Also, "Brothers, what shall we do?" Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."
(Acts 2:37–39). Read Christian Baptism: It's Real Meaning, a good read concerning baptism.


I understand that but people say hey you need to be given to a priest/minister/rev/etc and be baptised. But cant you also be baptised in the holy spirit? What if you accept God and live in the desert by yourself but somehow u did accept God, got baptised in the Holy Spirit while praying, 10 minutes later you are killed/die...then what? Just playing Devil's advocate here not arguing anyones views lol.



Re: changing the bible
Tuesday, October 06, 2009 11:04 AM on j-body.org
Torres wrote:

MadJack wrote:


Torres, On the topic of baptism, yes you do need to be baptized, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." (Mark 16:16 NIV). Also, "Brothers, what shall we do?" Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."
(Acts 2:37–39). Read Christian Baptism: It's Real Meaning, a good read concerning baptism.


I understand that but people say hey you need to be given to a priest/minister/rev/etc and be baptised. But cant you also be baptised in the holy spirit? What if you accept God and live in the desert by yourself but somehow u did accept God, got baptised in the Holy Spirit while praying, 10 minutes later you are killed/die...then what? Just playing Devil's advocate here not arguing anyones views lol.


Not to stray off topic (hopefully) but we need to be lead by a pastor/minsiter/priest and so on, not just for baptism, but for leadership, guidance and understanding. When we read the word, and don't fully understand, we can pray for understanding but if it does not come, which it does at times, that is when we as believers we seek the understanding and the wisdom of the elders, the pastors and the brethren. It is like teaching yourself math with no math teacher, it can be done, but when questions arise and you need a study partner, you have to ask teacher. The Lord supplied us with the Body of Christ not, for us to be reliant on that solely for everything, but as guidance, encouragement, fellowship, comradery etc. The body is where the Lord can use our gitfs and talents, you have a gift that the Lord can manifest, to bring Him glory and save souls, encourage someone else that they can make it akso. As believers we have to be joined to the Body of Christ and should want to, with that Spirit that dwells within you even if you lived by yourself, there is a part of you that desires to be joint to a Body of Christ somewhere, somehow. With Christ as the head. Now if it is somehow unrealistic for that to happen and that person has no way of ever leaving that region, than I don't know unfortunately LOL.


"I've got veins, that carry blood all over my bady"
Re: changing the bible
Tuesday, October 06, 2009 11:18 AM on j-body.org
Torres, you've touched on something that would be described by psychologists as Cognitive Dissonance. In other words, you have presented a conundrum that the dogma of the religion cannot fully explain due to the apparent conflict.

Of course, in earlier days, this "bringing religion to the savages to save their wretched souls" was but a thin excuse for economic colonization, a black eye that Europe still suffers from...one that makes USA's slavery seem tame by example. These European nations used Religion as a tool (admittedly, just one tool, guns and swords helped too) to enslave entire nations...dozens of them worldwide. The impact still reverberates, and is one reason why Arab and central Asian nations are bent on immigrating to Europe now...they have not forgotten, and want their piece of comfort too, after having the boot of Europe on their throat for centuries.

I believe a being with the powers we attribute to a God would not bar anyone from heaven, nor damn anyone to hell, just for being the imperfect creature He created. This includes the ignorance of not knowing or having access to a religion or said religion's customs (such as baptism).

Would this same said God treat differently those who know of baptism, but still did not take part, even if they are somehow able? Theologians have argued this one for millenia, I'd gather. I still tend to think of my God as a much more benevolent and advanced being than the vindictive,violent God of the Bible. For me, this biblical version of God is too Human in His attributes. So for me, the answer is...no. God accepts all his children regardless of religious affiliation or lack thereof. Evil is as evil does...live a life of evil, and you may be rolling the dice in the afterlife. But I don't think God bars his good children based on how many man-made "rules" they did or did not follow. It's what's in your heart, and how you treat others, that matters.





Re: changing the bible
Tuesday, October 06, 2009 11:33 AM on j-body.org
Like both of the responses thanks guys.

As far as a leader yeah I understand that I truely do but a lot of priest (in catholic churches, maybe other iunno) say hey you NEED to confess to me.

Im not hating on catholocism, we are all brothers and sisters in the eyes of God and we all worship the same God, just a little differently.

And please no one take offense to my post once again just playing advocate. You guys have all done your homework and thanks for not being a hater and respecting others beliefs in this thread.

The coolest thing I have seen to date when it comes to Christianity is when I went to a Devil Wears Prada concert. I was in the pit smashing everyone throwing round house kicks etc, lol, when they stopped the show and the lead singer says to the crowd. As you guys know we are a Christian band we believe in God, we are not asking you to join our religion nor hate on ur religion (paraphrasing) but we do ask that you respect ours, and the crowd went nuts clapping and everything. Comes to show you how far a little respect will go, no one God mad even 2 atheist I know werd very proud of how they approached it. I went to see Norma Jean (and no I don't only attend Christian shows) by mistake one time, I actually went to see Thrice and Norma Jean opened for them (i didnt know lol I dont even like them too much) but anyhow they did not mention once about their music or what it means, almost like they are scared of doing so.

A lil off topic but yeah lol



Re: changing the bible
Tuesday, October 06, 2009 5:36 PM on j-body.org
Bill Hahn Jr. wrote:



I believe a being with the powers we attribute to a God would not bar anyone from heaven, nor damn anyone to hell, just for being the imperfect creature He created. This includes the ignorance of not knowing or having access to a religion or said religion's customs (such as baptism).

Would this same said God treat differently those who know of baptism, but still did not take part, even if they are somehow able? Theologians have argued this one for millenia, I'd gather. I still tend to think of my God as a much more benevolent and advanced being than the vindictive,violent God of the Bible. For me, this biblical version of God is too Human in His attributes. So for me, the answer is...no. God accepts all his children regardless of religious affiliation or lack thereof. Evil is as evil does...live a life of evil, and you may be rolling the dice in the afterlife. But I don't think God bars his good children based on how many man-made "rules" they did or did not follow. It's what's in your heart, and how you treat others, that matters.


2 Peter 3:9
"9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

Please understand, God's standard is perfection. Perfection on our behalf is what is required by God to get to Heaven. God is holy. This means that sin cannot exist in His presence. What God wants from us all more than anything, is for us to want Him.

I'm not sure how one can say that God revealed in the Bible is too human. Last time I checked, there was only one human able to do such things as control weather, instantly remove every illness encountered, raise people from being dead four days by simply telling them to "come out of (their) tomb," and especially bring Himself back from the dead. Just in case there is any question, Jesus is who I'm describing. What I think that you are referring to is how God behaves in the Bible. God shows emotion, but not human emotion. God gets angry, shows remorse, laughs, and weeps. Seeing as how God has been around for all eternity and He created everything, I would say that it's us that mimic Him in this manner.

There is no "rolling dice in the afterlife." This is a black or white issue. Pass or fail. We as sinners, have all failed. It's Gods mercy and grace that we must turn to in this condition, that we can spend eternity with Him. These rules that you refer to as "man-made," are everything but. God who created everything created said rules. Please look again at my statement about gravity. The difference between gravity and moral law is that we have no choice but to submit to gravity's law. We are able to choose between sin and not sinning.



Philippians 3:10 (Amplified Bible)
10[For my determined purpose is] that I may know Him [that I may progressively become more deeply and intimately acquainted with Him, perceiving and recognizing and understanding the wonders of His Person more strongly and more clearly], and that I may in that same way come to know the power outflowing from His resurrection [[a]which it exerts over believers], and that I may so share His sufferings as to be continually transformed [in spirit into His likeness even] to His death, [in the hope]
Re: changing the bible
Tuesday, October 06, 2009 6:11 PM on j-body.org
It's not his God-like capabilities I refer to. It's his Human-like frailties. My God is truly perfect.

Were the Bible not written by ancient humans, God might have appeared to be a bit less like them. Those were brutal times, when men were ruled by force, not consensus. The framers of the Bible knew nothing else, so they built an image of God with what they had to work with, and endowed him with some of the qualities of rulers of that era.

Please don't be offended by these views, or try to evangelize me...I'm immune While I do respect your right to have your own views, I don't feel obligated to subject myself to them.






Re: changing the bible
Tuesday, October 06, 2009 7:11 PM on j-body.org
Mr. Hahn,

I only have this to answer you. I will pray for you my friend. I would again encourage you to seek God with your heart, and seek Him for who He is, and not who you would like to see Him. I'm only so adamant about this because Jesus is my passion, and deception is a disease which results in sin. To call yourself immune, this particular scripture is most appropriate.

Matthew 7:6 (New International Version)

6"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.


Philippians 3:10 (Amplified Bible)
10[For my determined purpose is] that I may know Him [that I may progressively become more deeply and intimately acquainted with Him, perceiving and recognizing and understanding the wonders of His Person more strongly and more clearly], and that I may in that same way come to know the power outflowing from His resurrection [[a]which it exerts over believers], and that I may so share His sufferings as to be continually transformed [in spirit into His likeness even] to His death, [in the hope]
Re: changing the bible
Wednesday, October 07, 2009 5:13 AM on j-body.org
I enjoy your points of view, even if I do seem recalcitrant about being preached to. You need not worry or pray for me, for your wish for me to find God in my heart was granted long ago. He may not have the fire and brimstone associated with your vision of God, but he's there. I suppose one of my largest objections to religious dogma is its intolerance of others' views of God. My God is much more tolerant.






Re: changing the bible
Wednesday, October 07, 2009 6:22 AM on j-body.org
Bill Hahn Jr. wrote:

I enjoy your points of view, even if I do seem recalcitrant about being preached to. You need not worry or pray for me, for your wish for me to find God in my heart was granted long ago. He may not have the fire and brimstone associated with your vision of God, but he's there. I suppose one of my largest objections to religious dogma is its intolerance of others' views of God. My God is much more tolerant.


I agree, there is no right way or religion...for centuries this has started wars all over the world.

If you feel a certain way about the way you praise God and I feel differently I will have a friendly argument with you but I will not try to convince you otherwise. All that matters is that you are a believer in my eyes.

Bill I have a new found respect for you, very open views and awesome that you respect the opinions of others and not flame them because it is not your opinion.



Re: changing the bible
Wednesday, October 07, 2009 9:57 AM on j-body.org
also one thing to consider Barett. until you actually meet your god. your just guessing at what your god really is. who knows. Mr. Hahn may have a more accurate depiction of god then you do. because he is basing them on his heart, and not what some book told him to believe.

Barrett your biggest flaw to me is that you believe you know exactly who he is, what he believes and how you should be to reach his praise. when in reality, your just guessing. nothing more then what Bill is doing. the book you and most bible thumpers use as your example was written by man, and we all know man is a sinner. and not perfect. which is another reason i dont understand why they can just arbitrarily change on a whim. deciding that they know better then god. its kinda like i can see in 50 years pictures of god being changed into some cartoon dog charachter because the church has decided it will be easier to bring people into the light so to speak if they indoctern them at a young age. this is god. this is the all powerful all knowing god. you shouldn't change gods word just to make it easier on those who dont want to take the time to learn him.


its like saying, well i'll say that you are a god and that i reviere you but i dont want to fast or give up fish on fridays. and i dont want to have to go to church on superbowl sunday because that is inconvienent. and i know better then you god so im going to allow it since im the head clergy here and you speak thru me to the masses.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/sndsgood/ https://www.facebook.com/#!/Square1Photography
Re: changing the bible
Friday, October 09, 2009 2:48 PM on j-body.org
Well im not saying change Gods word but remember the bible was written in latin every single translation is changing Gods word.

What I am in agreement is changing the language up a little, what was understood many years ago will not be understood by people today. Im not saying to change the image of God.

Just like shakespeare, his language in his books were totally different no one talks like that anymore.



Re: changing the bible
Saturday, October 10, 2009 12:04 AM on j-body.org
Quote:

SIMPLY BELIEVING DOES NOT MAKE SOMETHING TRUE.



Ha ha ha.....

Hypocrytorama

So you are really telling me that you read the bible..... and honestly believe that what is in it is true?

I know you've probably been brought up being told it is....... but dude.... its just a damn book... thats it.

What about all the other religions in the world..... are they all going to hell? They are no different than I am as far a believing in something you dont...

I honestly can not understand how anyone of any intelligence can follow a religion and actually, truly believe its lies...

Hey if it makes you happy.... more power to ya..... But I believe that its all bs just as much or more than you believe it to be true..... so really any arguments we have arnt going to work here...





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