Why America needs more Stand your Ground/Castle Laws - Page 2 - Politics and War Forum

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Re: Why America needs more Stand your Ground/Castle Laws
Monday, July 26, 2010 7:12 PM on j-body.org
I never meant chase someone down, but RUN? in my own home?

NO.

And by justifications of deadly force, here is it, off the very card I was issued as both a Marine, and a Military Police Officer,

Quote:

(1) IN SELF DEFENSE AND DEFENSE OF OTHERS.
(2) IN DEFENSE OF PROPERTY INVOLVING NATIONAL SECURITY.
(3) IN DEFENSE OF PROPERTY NOT INVOLVING NATIONAL SECURITY BUT INHERENTLY DANGEROUS TO OTHERS.
(4) TO PREVENT OR INTERRUPT SERIOUS OFFENSES AGAINST PERSONS.
(5) APPREHENSION OR ARREST.
(6) ESCAPES.
(7) LAWFUL ORDER.



Number Four, that's where when given the chose by a attacker\raper to "leave" (AKA run away) , no, I rather die knowing I did SOMETHING TO TRY to stop it and or prevent it from happening again to someone else.

Then there is always the catch all justification of deadly force,

Quote:

I FEARED FOR MY LIFE


Chris




"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry



Re: Why America needs more Stand your Ground/Castle Laws
Tuesday, July 27, 2010 6:40 AM on j-body.org
INFIDEL wrote:

I never meant chase someone down, but RUN? in my own home?

NO.

And by justifications of deadly force, here is it, off the very card I was issued as both a Marine, and a Military Police Officer,

Quote:

(1) IN SELF DEFENSE AND DEFENSE OF OTHERS.
(2) IN DEFENSE OF PROPERTY INVOLVING NATIONAL SECURITY.
(3) IN DEFENSE OF PROPERTY NOT INVOLVING NATIONAL SECURITY BUT INHERENTLY DANGEROUS TO OTHERS.
(4) TO PREVENT OR INTERRUPT SERIOUS OFFENSES AGAINST PERSONS.
(5) APPREHENSION OR ARREST.
(6) ESCAPES.
(7) LAWFUL ORDER.



Number Four, that's where when given the chose by a attacker\raper to "leave" (AKA run away) , no, I rather die knowing I did SOMETHING TO TRY to stop it and or prevent it from happening again to someone else.

Then there is always the catch all justification of deadly force,

Quote:

I FEARED FOR MY LIFE


Chris

Not only are you horrifically stretching the wording of this credo to include spontaneous execution or maiming, chosen by you against another human, because you feel they "might" also be an ongoing menace to society (even though in the heat of such a moment you'd have NO earthly way of ascertaining this!), you are also ascribing military powers to a civilian.

Somehow, I rather doubt the man in question here "FEARED FOR HIS LIFE" while he attempted to murder someone trying to steal his trailer. However, I do fear for his soul.






Re: Why America needs more Stand your Ground/Castle Laws
Tuesday, July 27, 2010 7:01 PM on j-body.org
Mr. Hahn, I am by NO means saying that this is to be used to circumvent theft or other non violent crime, My analogy is because we do not have "Castle law" here in WI. If i really did walk in on a guy raping my wife, or had a gun and gave me the OPPORTUNITY to get out of the house, to say call the cops, shooting him in WI I would be tried for murder one.

I disagree with that.


Military powers to a civ.... 18-32 your already, by virtue of the Constitution, in the States Militia.
Military and Civilians are SUPPOSED to be on the same level of "powers".... if it weren't, this country would not be here.
Kinda like the REAL reason the Brits were marching on Concord..... to get the Firearms the Americans stock piled there.

Also FYI, in WI, ANYONE can kill to PREVENT arson.... (this is a little steep for me though.....)

Chris


"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry


Re: Why America needs more Stand your Ground/Castle Laws
Wednesday, July 28, 2010 9:23 AM on j-body.org
Agreed, your proposed scenario sucks. I was only considering the scenario featured in this thread.

I am all for armed self-defense as needed within one's own home. For me, it all changes once that threshold is literally crossed. Sorry to hear your state is wishy-washy on this.

However, no...I don't agree civilian and miltary/police Rules of Engagement should be interchangeable. I find that concept anarchistic, and an enabler of criminals more than innocents...regardless of the political climate in this nation almost 300 years ago.








Re: Why America needs more Stand your Ground/Castle Laws
Wednesday, July 28, 2010 4:20 PM on j-body.org
But then why hold on to the very same Constitution that Reaffirms our Right to do this very thing?
IE share info\discuss this openly with out fear from our government telling\making us to stop.
ergo First Amendment.?
I view the Constitution as a Guiding Light, a North Star if you will. That's how the Creators of this Great Nation meant it to be.
Black and White.

And again, That was not ROE, that was judicious use of Deadly Force.

ob(s)oma's ROE was ... see Tango build IED, watch Tango build IED, take notes as Tango builds IED, Verify that it is an IED, then Pursue and Detain Tango, After mirandizing said "suspect terrorist"


Chris


"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry


Re: Why America needs more Stand your Ground/Castle Laws
Wednesday, July 28, 2010 4:52 PM on j-body.org
No, I don't interpret the Constitution as affirming that citizens should have the same rules of engagement as military and police. Thank God they don't, else criminals (who are also citizens) could raise holy hell...with impunity. Frankly, I find your views on this subject skewed beyond reasonable discussion. Your tactic of pretending our founding fathers' views support your position is laughable, and simply a silly talking point your handlers taught you...so you use it as if it was actually valid. It is not, and intelligent folks see right through this selfish hijacking of our heritage.





Re: Why America needs more Stand your Ground/Castle Laws
Wednesday, July 28, 2010 5:16 PM on j-body.org
So criminals don't raise hell already?


hmm




I take the Constitution Literally , after all, I did swear to Uphold and Defend it, Did you?




Give me time, Ill look up some Supreme Court case's...


Chris




"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry


Re: Why America needs more Stand your Ground/Castle Laws
Wednesday, July 28, 2010 5:29 PM on j-body.org
No, you take the Constitution "interpretationally", and your interpretations range from wishful to ridiculous.

The fact that you signed a military oath at some point in your life does not make you any more of a citizen than you are currently, and certainly no different than me. We are both the same in the eyes of the law, no matter what murderous, vindictive hero-trips you allow yourself to fantasize about.

Allowing the citizenry to implement police/military style rules of engagement would give criminals even more ability to raise hell than they already have.

Don't try to turn this convo into another windbaggery about gun control. It's not.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Wednesday, July 28, 2010 5:37 PM



Re: Why America needs more Stand your Ground/Castle Laws
Wednesday, July 28, 2010 5:56 PM on j-body.org
INFIDEL wrote:

I take the Constitution Literally
You have your own interpretation, just like everybody else. If there was a clear-cut, "literal", meaning to every bit of the document, there wouldn't even be a need for the Supreme Court, no?




fortune cookie say: better a delay than a disaster
Re: Why America needs more Stand your Ground/Castle Laws
Wednesday, July 28, 2010 7:10 PM on j-body.org
Incorrect.

It is needed because of the whole 3 branches of Government thingey....

My Interpretation is as the whole, just like in anther thread when I say the tenth gives states power over the Feds, so mas. wanting to go to a Popular vote is OK with that, I don't like it because that is a democracy, not a Republic, and this nation is a REPUBLIC.

I mean this when I say Literally... I will give an Example.

Infringe.
in·fringe/inˈfrinj/Verb
1. Actively break the terms of (a law, agreement, etc.): "infringe a copyright".
2. Act so as to limit or undermine (something); encroach on: "infringe on his privacy"


So, no law dose this to an Amendment?

Castle law, and the Second are Tied together.

Good night Sir's

Chirs


"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry


Re: Why America needs more Stand your Ground/Castle Laws
Thursday, July 29, 2010 2:12 PM on j-body.org
Miller vs United States Supreme court case conclusion

Quote:

“In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a 'shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length' at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense. Aymette v. State of Tennessee, 2 Humph., Tenn., 154, 158.



Here is the big part....
Quote:

"ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense"


in other words: IF A CERTAIN FIREARM HAS REASONABLE RELATIONSHIP TO THE PRESERVATION OR EFFICIENCY OF A WELL REGULATED MILITIA, THEN THE SECOND AMENDMENT GUARANTEES THE RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR SUCH AN INSTRUMENT!


Emmm……. Take home your M16 lately?


This is the same case that made "sawed off shotguns" illegal.



My Point is this, it clearly states that the second says you can have military equipment, and that Civilians " the bad militia" are to have said firearms, it goes with out saying that you are to be trained up to such standards.

Chris


"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry



Re: Why America needs more Stand your Ground/Castle Laws
Thursday, July 29, 2010 2:51 PM on j-body.org
Chris, I'm not sure where your tangent is headed...




fortune cookie say: better a delay than a disaster
Re: Why America needs more Stand your Ground/Castle Laws
Thursday, July 29, 2010 5:50 PM on j-body.org
It hardly mattters.

He's bought into every so-called "2nd amendment right" to shoot now and ask questions later. Somehow, he attempts to reconcile centuries-old colonial militia concepts with the modern world. He may not know it, but his views in today's society are those of an anarchist. I don't see any intelligent discourse possible with him.






Re: Why America needs more Stand your Ground/Castle Laws
Thursday, July 29, 2010 7:20 PM on j-body.org
quit tossing around the word anarchist. If you must do so, please define it according to one of the main american dictionaries.

Infringe means what it means. It isn't open to dithering, waffling, and individual interpretation.

If some guy is in my yard stealing a picnic table, I don't believe I have the right to kill him. however, if I go out there with a nice louisville slugger and attempt to chase him away, only to end up using it to drive home the point..... eh, when in doubt, doubt the thief, not the homeowner.

.


“Poor Al Gore. Global warming completely debunked via the very Internet you invented. Oh, oh, the irony!” -Jon Stewart
Re: Why America needs more Stand your Ground/Castle Laws
Friday, July 30, 2010 10:42 AM on j-body.org
Anarchists are those who wish to destabilize the power of the government and distribute large portions of it to the people. This would include military and weaponry powers typically reserved for the government. I doubt a dictionary description alone can effectively describe its true meaning, much less its nuances...Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" is a good source, however.

For example: The Oxford Companion to Philosophy says, "there is no single defining position that all anarchists hold, and those considered anarchists at best share a certain family resemblance."

You far-right guys probably have not realized this anarchistic aspect in yourselves, but keep in mind it is not a term of disparagement unless you are offended by it. I say it not to offend, but to describe. If you are offended by it, perhaps research it in greater detail, but keep an open mind...you'll be surprised if you allow yourself to objectively learn more about anarchism.





Re: Why America needs more Stand your Ground/Castle Laws
Sunday, August 01, 2010 6:14 PM on j-body.org
So, you wish to be a hypocrite and up hold the first, but step on the second?


its black and white, in writing.

It is what it is.

cal me what you will, I care not.


Chirs


"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry


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