OHV notec wrote:For instance, and I'm only going to comment on this one since I wasn't around for the others, the tax cuts of 2003. The charts we posted in the other thread show that the housing boom had the greatest rate of growth starting in 2003 (things started getting out of hand earlier, but that was the section with the greatest acceleration. Is it not possible that the tax cuts were not the only factor for the increased revenue at that time? Increased borrowing itself means there's significantly more capital injected into the economy; more jobs, more purchasing, more tax collected. I'm not an economist, but I believe this could have played a significant role during that time period. While we may have been in a "recession" at the time, conditions may have been much more favorable for the tax cuts (lower unemployment, greater production, and whatnot) then than currently.

This is a possibility, and Bill has taken the stance that this was more of the case than it was the tax cuts. However, as I've pointed out to Bill, him and I see a few of these things from opposite perspectives. He sees cause where I see effect, and vice-versa. I would say that taxes being lowered (and by extention, people having more money to spend), and more people being employed, that the housing market saw a boost, since more people were in a position to buy a home. Again, one thing I will point out is that in the discussion, Bill suggested that the turn around in the tax revenues was due to 1) increase in population, and/or 2) the housing bubble. However, I have pointed out that both were growing while the tax revenues were receding from 2000-2003. There is, of course, the snowball effect, where economic activity puts more people in the position to buy homes, which increases the bubble, which makes people money, etc., but it's still hard to argue the fact that each time the tax rates were lowered, the economy was boosted, and revenues increased. And I don't know where the tipping point is, but I know we're well above it.

As for our different situation, I'll say this: with regards to China and Japan, improving the climate for business development in this country would go a long way in keeping us at the top. The problem is that as it becomes more expensive to operate here, more companies look to these countries for solutions, whether it be moving to them, or simply outsourcing parts to them. We need to combat this in a positive manner (making it inviting to invest here), not a negative one (penalizing imports).

As for always lowering the taxes when the economy is lagging, that makes the assumption that the taxes haven't gone up in between, which was the case in all instances. If they are kept low, the economy will still ebb and flow, but it would not be stuck in stagnation when it's lagging. While your argument that people may be afraid to spend money because of the tax increases being so prevalent in the news right now, don't think that the majority of businesses and investors aren't always paying attention to what's coming. They have accountants who advise them constantly. On this note, I firmly believe that many of the positive indicators we're seeing in the business sector (positive profit numbers, etc being reported by many companies) may be a front-loading of profits into this year, holding off on major expenses until after January 1st, when the tax rates will be higher, so the expense write-offs will be more valuable.

One final thought: I've got quite a few ideas on the tax code that I believe would greatly improve the situation in this country. I'm sure other people have some as well. It might be fun to have a thread dedicated to this discussion, as long as the grade-school idiocy can stay out of it. Over the past few days, we seem to be doing quite alright with it.

Take Back the Republican Party wrote:

INFIDEL wrote:So.... did you ever pass econ 101?
just, the stupidity of your "national debt" (LOL) sig, WTF, you really don't know why billery had it made was because of Regan.
No, your blind to that fact.

I like this reasoning. This would project that in about eight years, whoever is the current president can then thank Obama for the increase of the national debt during his term. Here's hoping its a Republican so he'll know who to thank. Good call, Chris!

I also especially like that the current national debt has ballooned partially due to tax cuts the Bush administration passed. Yes, yes...what goes around does indeed come around!

Spending money on DEFENSE, putting people to work and lowering taxes are a lot DIFFERENT then PRINTING MONEY Bill.

And going off another thread, I read BBC.

Just remember, the pres can not spend a dime with out Congressional approval. You an I will disagree on a lot of things, but I feel we can both agree we need new "leaders", In all branches and levels of government. Ideally, not politicians.


Chris




"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry

R.W.E. of the J.B.O. wrote:Because you'd buy that same refrigerator if it was 10 times the cost, right? Companies can't just keep raising their prices. Face it, the left claims the companies are screwing the consumer when their prices are raised, and they're screwing the employee when their wages aren't. There's no hope in appeasing someone like you. The companies are just all out to screw someone in your mind.

Nope... and it will not happen. Much to you Right-wing popular belief; made in the USA-- does NOT equal to a spike in price, and quite frankly, it is the lamest, dumbest and the most ridiculous excuse known to man. Honda, Toyota, VW, Renault, Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Mitsubishi for example are companies that are made here and prior to the Euro ever making an appearance, so don't come making the excuse Dollar to Euro ratio. What's more I have a Siemens (German) home cord-less phone that proudly says Made in USA that I bought in 1996 for $25 at Best Buy.
The problem here is companies are not happy making a million, $10 million, or $50 million, in profits and each year companies MUST show a "+" even though they are well over covering their cost. So how do you achieve that "+" over the previous year, even though sales might stay stagnant. Lower your labor cost... Ship it overseas, is a great solution! Why pay John Smith that outlandish and island buying $15 per hr, when we can pay Jin Po $1.70 to the same job? Do you think that saving is ever going to trickle down to the consumer LOLMAEOLAMFIE<C, right... just pull up a chair as you wait for it. Of course it will not, it is bad business to reduce the profit over one year to the next. If I'm wrong, my American company computer, but "Made in China" would be under $250, not $1,995.
Just don't expect our US economy to move if that short-term outlook continues through the ages... oh that's right, but it has in that 3rd world, communist, China which is now sitting at #2 in the world economy.

Quote:

Great. You know their advertising budgets. How about their overhead? How about their loaded labor costs? How about their net profit margins at the end of the year? I've read your bullsh!t long enough to know you don't have much first hand knowledge here.

Ah yes, the ignorance is bliss routine. Pat on your back Limbaugh's Right Nut.
You do know that once the product is in the market for sometime, advertising the product becomes a luxury, right? That means if the X company is advertising with us on a product that is well known and established, is it necessary to "reintroduce" or "keep the light burning" on it? If X company has the luxury to do that type of splurge, do you think they don't have the money to put another American worker here? Or bring X company here, instead of working in India?
I know it will be a cold day in hell on the day that you'll admit that, but I guess you have to be on the spot to ever understand.

Quote:

It's truth. Maybe you BS your resume (hey, you're in marketing, where half of it's BS, anyway, so you probably don't even realize you're doing it), but when I put down my achievements on mine, they can be verified. And it was you who first started making it about me, remember? Don't cry when I pull the rug out from under you.

Sorry to inform you, but listening to Rush and regurgitating what he has to say on the JBO is not an achievement.
And don't be a pussy, you look pathetic; trying to black-male me now, really? Don't be a bitch and say what you have to say, if not STFU.

Quote:

According to your statements, it would seem that you believe in people taking the first step of hardship to prove their point, so why don't you refuse to use a computer, since they're not "Made in USA"? Stop using your electronics because they're not made here. After all, you want to have me accept $5/hour because I think too many employees in this country want too much for too little. What's good for the goose...

There is a difference numb-nuts, I am not preaching to boycott things that are not Made in USA. That would be utter stupid as we would have to be walking naked, walk to work, take a dingy to go overseas, use a cup and string to contact someone. Utter stupidity to even come up with something like that, genius.
You on the other hand like to throw out that if one asks for decent "living wage" it's then as if you're "entitled" to something livable. Seriously, that's low of you. But I guess with your lofty $55 million dollar salary, you can crap on anyone and never feel the raft of "the little people" slinging your crap back up.

INFIDEL wrote:So.... did you ever pass econ 101?


just, the stupidity of your "national debt" (LOL) sig, WTF, you really don't know why billery had it made was because of Regan.
No, your blind to that fact.

I really don't get you, your and enigma to me.

And did you ever passed the 4th grade?
I would guess the sig is stupid, because your well versed self in history has never figured out how much of a mass spender your buddies were. Look on the site for the figures.
What fact speak-th of?
Do you know what happened on October 19 1988 and the reason behind it? Why was it H.Bush got defeat in 1992 again? Tell me on that US economy between July 1990-March 1991 (still with low taxes too--- you know the one no one here talks on)...hmm?


THE POLITICALLY INCORRECT ONE.

LOL. I'm not even going to bother responding to most of that idiocy. Maybe you need to get some sleep instead of staying up to write epic posts full of nothing.

I will get a chuckle out of once again throwing your own words back at you, though:

Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:

Quote:

According to your statements, it would seem that you believe in people taking the first step of hardship to prove their point, so why don't you refuse to use a computer, since they're not "Made in USA"? Stop using your electronics because they're not made here. After all, you want to have me accept $5/hour because I think too many employees in this country want too much for too little. What's good for the goose...

There is a difference numb-nuts, I am not preaching to boycott things that are not Made in USA. That would be utter stupid as we would have to be walking naked, walk to work, take a dingy to go overseas, use a cup and string to contact someone. Utter stupidity to even come up with something like that, genius.
You on the other hand like to throw out that if one asks for decent "living wage" it's then as if you're "entitled" to something livable. Seriously, that's low of you. But I guess with your lofty $55 million dollar salary, you can crap on anyone and never feel the raft of "the little people" slinging your crap back up.

Good job understanding sarcasm.

Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:Do you know what happened on October 19 1988 and the reason behind it? Why was it H.Bush got defeat in 1992 again? Tell me on that US economy between July 1990-March 1991

LOL. I love when you talk about stuff like this. For starters, surely you're talking about 1987, not 1988, right?

Bush's 92 defeat. I'm sure you're going to quote some history book. Seeing as I voted in that election, I'll tell you that it's not what you're likely going to claim. He made the same blunder his son did, and he got stabbed in the back. You'd have thought the son would have learned that lesson.

Well, he's got your number, Quik. Rather than honor yourself by responding to all his points, you'll just puss out. It's not the the first time, and far from the last. Your handlers are who caused China's current success, all the while selling out American jobs. Well, at least they got filthy rich...God forbid they have to pay more taxes though, horror of horrors! I hope you are proud of them. They sure as hell should be proud of what they made you.

As for China passing Japan as the world's 2nd largest economy, we should all keep in mind that Japan's economy has been rather stagnant for some time. Further, if all else is equal, the nation with the most people should have the largest economy. Taken in that regard, China's tremendously larger population than Japan is a key factor. Projecting forward, this is also why China can, and likely will, surpass the USA economy. We need not shed a tear when it happens, for it's nigh inevitable. Our concervative money-rakers have all but assured it.

In the meantime, let's just keep filling their pockets, eh Quik?

Bill, you've been doing well over the past few days of not stooping to the idiocy. Don't take a step back now by suggesting that ignoring it is somehow backing down. Goodwrench is going down his typical path of long-winded rantings with name calling and posturing. I'm not going to continue to feed it.

Take Back the Republican Party wrote:As for China passing Japan as the world's 2nd largest economy, we should all keep in mind that Japan's economy has been rather stagnant for some time.

And do you know why Japan has been stagnant? What did they do to cause this? Conversely, what has China been doing differently with their fiscal policy? If you're not already familiar with it, it would be potentially enlightening to compare Japan's stagnation with our recession.

Well, this thread went down the hill quickly
Why the name-calling? If you're getting frustrated, take a deep breath, or a nap




fortune cookie say: better a delay than a disaster