Health care bill passes!!!!!!! - Page 2 - Politics and War Forum

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Re: Health care bill passes!!!!!!!
Tuesday, March 23, 2010 3:27 PM on j-body.org
sndsgood wrote:

if this is the case and im somehow paying for all these uninsured people right now. with this new plan it will make it cheaper for me right? because now they all are insured? somehow im betting more money will be pulled out of my pocket for this plan to cover those you said im allready paying for.
Having spoken recently with an actuary for a medical insurance company, I can tell you that they are predicting 2011 to have the largest premium increases ever as far as percentage. See how people were outraged at a 39% increase in California this year,? Wait until next year. This is what happens when they are forced to insure and cover pre-existing conditions. The fact that there will be a slew of new people signing up, and getting immediate benefits paid out (in some cases the insurance company will be signing people up knowing that they will never relieve as much in premiums from these people that they will be paying out) will by the very definition of insurance--the transfer of a loss from the individual to a group--cause everyone to pay higher premiums. The insurance companies are going to be forced to take on these cases, and they are not allowed to charge higher premiums based on level of risk for these pre-existing conditions.

Don't get me wrong, there are a few good things in this bill, but the majority of it is going to ruin the system as we know it. Give it a year, maybe two, and they will be saying that in spite of all they did with this bill, the evil insurance companies are still gouging their customers, and we have to have the public option. By the way, regarding the public option, they tried it in my state, and it was an utter failure. It caused premiums in my state to double in a few short years, and the plan is nearly bankrupt. They have now stopped taking new subscribers to the plan.







Re: Health care bill passes!!!!!!!
Wednesday, March 24, 2010 5:10 AM on j-body.org
Take Back the Republican Party wrote:

Just do the math...these people are already getting care, and the money has been coming from somewhere. If not you (taxpayers and insurance premium payers), where do you think it's been coming from?





so your saying they are allready being cared for, and im allready paying for it? then why are we spending 1 trillion dollars on people who as you said are allready getting taken care of?


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Re: Health care bill passes!!!!!!!
Wednesday, March 24, 2010 6:34 AM on j-body.org
Fact is, when it comes to the 'uninsured' yes...SOMEONE pays for their care, and it sure as hell ain't some fat-cat corporate exec. It's the taxpayer and the insurance premium payer.

When we get right down to it, there's only about 15-ish % of our population that does not have health insurace, of which many are poor enough to qualify for Medicaid. Taxpayer supported.

The remainder can still walk into a hospital very sick and get treatment; no one is ever turned away who needs care. Insurance premium payer supported.

So why does the new plan cost more overall? In short terms: to plug the gaps that trouble the current system. One large gap may well be what we'd refer to in an infant's life as "well baby care". You see, many sick folks are falling through the cracks in the current system, not the least of which are pre-existing condition clauses and already exhorbitant rates. Part of the thrust behind the new system is the very correct presumption that if we can achieve a healthier populace NOW, we won't have to pay so much to fix the long-term results of poor or non-existent care LATER. Plugging these gaps will not be inexpensive.

Fear not, for the bulk of this cost will be borne by the people it helps the most: the future taxpaying generation. No way do WE have the money for it!







Re: Health care bill passes!!!!!!!
Wednesday, March 24, 2010 10:31 AM on j-body.org
mitdr774 wrote:

Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:

Take Back the Republican Party wrote:

Maybe Rush won't have to go international for HIS care now...he can get private care in the USA, which is now going to have a public health plan too. Just like Costa Rica!

lol.
ScottaWhite wrote:


Also, because it FORCES citizens to purchase a product (insurance) from a private company, it is also unconstitutional.

So is forcing us to buy car insurance in order to drive on the streets, or home insurance if you're using a mortgage. But everything is dandy when it comes to those "unconstitutional" aspects. Cry me a river.
---
I for one will not open the umbrella before it rains, I was on the fence, and after reading on my local paper there lots of good in it. Now, I can only hope the outcome is just as well. One thing is for sure, baby-boomers (the biggest age demographic) are entering retirement and at the rate we were/are going in the past and today the future looks bleak. Again, I can only hope this lessens the blow of the baby-boomers with this system. Only time will tell.



You have to have car insurance in case you @!#$ up and cause an accident. Home insurance is so that the bank isnt out all the money when your house is damaged/destroyed. They are protecting their investment. You can opt out of car insurance by not driving and opt out of home owners insurance by renting or paying off your home loan. To require that I have health insurance when it only affects me is BS.

I want to know what the final cap is before a health insurance plan is declared a "Cadillac Plan". I am guessing that I will either be paying a penalty on mine or the plan will be reduced so much that I might as well get outside coverage anyways. Its been available for years but I always participated in a plan through work (especially now because its part of my pay package).

Excellent double standard you got going.
Much how they are to be protected on the payments fees if I hit someone with my car. Much how the banker is protecting their investment for any tiype of disaster. We also protect ourselves from mediacal costs and get covered when we pay for it.
It is no different than when government already protects us from so many aspects that we use or buy everyday.

Take Back the Republican Party wrote:

Fact is, when it comes to the 'uninsured' yes...SOMEONE pays for their care, and it sure as hell ain't some fat-cat corporate exec. It's the taxpayer and the insurance premium payer.

When we get right down to it, there's only about 15-ish % of our population that does not have health insurace, of which many are poor enough to qualify for Medicaid. Taxpayer supported.

The remainder can still walk into a hospital very sick and get treatment; no one is ever turned away who needs care. Insurance premium payer supported.

So why does the new plan cost more overall? In short terms: to plug the gaps that trouble the current system. One large gap may well be what we'd refer to in an infant's life as "well baby care". You see, many sick folks are falling through the cracks in the current system, not the least of which are pre-existing condition clauses and already exhorbitant rates. Part of the thrust behind the new system is the very correct presumption that if we can achieve a healthier populace NOW, we won't have to pay so much to fix the long-term results of poor or non-existent care LATER. Plugging these gaps will not be inexpensive.

Fear not, for the bulk of this cost will be borne by the people it helps the most: the future taxpaying generation. No way do WE have the money for it!

Bingo. And the opposition will not tell you this, they'll just give the show: "I'm for America!" banter.
And the way we can pay a huge chunk of it, is by removing our selves from these money draining wars.

Some of you remind me of this.



THE POLITICALLY INCORRECT ONE.

Re: Health care bill passes!!!!!!!
Wednesday, March 24, 2010 12:29 PM on j-body.org
Goodwrench, thats a funny pic which satirist wrote it? I haven't seen it before.



Re: Health care bill passes!!!!!!!
Wednesday, March 24, 2010 12:54 PM on j-body.org
Hmm, looks to me like the cartoonist's name was removed. Probably for his own safety...after all the Wingnut Mohammed is portrayed on the television, and we all know what happens to cartoonists who portray Rightlamic Icons in an unfavorable light. Hopefully the cartoonist is not also Danish!!!




Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Wednesday, March 24, 2010 12:58 PM



Re: Health care bill passes!!!!!!!
Wednesday, March 24, 2010 1:03 PM on j-body.org
^ funny, since nancy pelosi raised hell when there was an iPod app depicting her as a cartoon and had it removed from the store.

Dip@!#$ wrote:

Fear not, for the bulk of this cost will be borne by the people it helps the most: the future taxpaying generation. No way do WE have the money for it!


yeah, thanks. thats a great thing to do. saddle the young with the debts of the poor decisions your generation made. you have your head so far up your ass, its ridiculous.





Check out my build thread!

Re: Health care bill passes!!!!!!!
Wednesday, March 24, 2010 2:04 PM on j-body.org
You're right. We should just leave a faulty system in place now, so that by the time the next generation are old enough to need help, they'll already be dead from lack of decent care. Makes sense to me!

I think your plan has real merit...go for it! Make something happen! Get out there and make a difference!

Or, you could just try to salve your wounds by sitting on your dead ass and insulting me here instead. Somehow, I am sure you'll choose the latter





Re: Health care bill passes!!!!!!!
Wednesday, March 24, 2010 2:11 PM on j-body.org
im gonna go to jail because id rather eat then get health insurance!

super stoked, cant wait!



We all need somebody to believe in something...
Re: Health care bill passes!!!!!!!
Wednesday, March 24, 2010 6:54 PM on j-body.org
Take Back the Republican Party wrote:

You're right. We should just leave a faulty system in place now, so that by the time the next generation are old enough to need help, they'll already be dead from lack of decent care. Makes sense to me!

I think your plan has real merit...go for it! Make something happen! Get out there and make a difference!

Or, you could just try to salve your wounds by sitting on your dead ass and insulting me here instead. Somehow, I am sure you'll choose the latter


so somehow you actually believe government run health care is a better idea than deregulation? give me one decent reason why government run is a better idea. you won't though, you'll skate around it claiming i've been brainwashed by Rush and Beck.



Check out my build thread!

Re: Health care bill passes!!!!!!!
Wednesday, March 24, 2010 8:59 PM on j-body.org
I'm not a fan of the proposed legislation, for a variety of reasons, so I won't defend it. However, I am a fan of some reforms that address the major issues being faced today, some of which I mention above.

The private sector in unrestrained fashion has created these problems. I'm not so sure that allowing these problems to continue to exist, while still allowing the private sector free reign, is going to do anything but worsen the situation. Thus, some stronger intervention may be the only workable possibility. I don't agree that the government would "run" healthcare anyway under these plans; they'd intervene rather decidedly, however, with regulation and enforcement. It would not be the first out-of-control situation they've been called upon to wrangle, and it won't be the last.






Re: Health care bill passes!!!!!!!
Thursday, March 25, 2010 6:05 AM on j-body.org
Take Back the Republican Party wrote:

You're right. We should just leave a faulty system in place now, so that by the time the next generation are old enough to need help, they'll already be dead from lack of decent care. Makes sense to me!

I think your plan has real merit...go for it! Make something happen! Get out there and make a difference!

Or, you could just try to salve your wounds by sitting on your dead ass and insulting me here instead. Somehow, I am sure you'll choose the latter




i agree, a revamp of the healthcare system is needed. but i feel more that were just spending ourselves into debt. the goverment spends more and more each year and its taking in less money. spend what you have, and if you dont have it then you dont have it. i'd rather the country be here in 50 generations rather then us bankrupting the entire country and turn into some third world country. you don't make up some grand plan and assume your kids are going to pay for it, that to me is just pathetic.

they are making a legislation up saying these people are too poor to get healthcare and now the plan is to charge these same people if they dont get a healthcare plan? that to me doesn't make allot of sence.


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Re: Health care bill passes!!!!!!!
Thursday, March 25, 2010 9:54 AM on j-body.org
Like I say, they already GET healthcare, and we are already paying for it. Frankly, that's the smallest aspect of reform. You're buying into the Rightoric on this if you think otherwise.

As for deferred spending,...the primary advantages of good reform will be felt by those who find themselvs paying for it in the future. That's not so bad of logic, really.

WWithout a doubt, as you say...some form of reform is needed, and if the Right keeps demonizing every effort at reform, this is going to be a very long and confusing battle...and Rush may have to go to Costa Rica very often!




Re: Health care bill passes!!!!!!!
Thursday, March 25, 2010 11:04 AM on j-body.org
Lets us run the numbers everyone.



-
Chart Stats courtesy of http://www.oecd.org



Now let us do the math here on socialized medicine. IF said socialized nations are spending "X" amount per person is less then what "X" amount is spent on every US citizen, Then how could "Socializing" Health care really put a country in more dept ? If anything.. It will save the nation billions, even trillions. If you could CUT Health spending per person down by 55 % over the 300 million + citizens of your country... That is nearly $3500+ according to this information, and if you multiply that over the 300 million people in your country.. That is over a trillion dollars saved annually....... YES a trillion. !



*AND Please, lets not insult the level of care received in these Socialized Nations as being inferior. The foremost Medical ranking organization in the world ranks all the nations in the chart above the USA. (I guess you will attack the Source Now ?..... I mean what does the WHO really know about Health Care ? )

*All the stated Nations in the chart above have a longer average life expectancy as well. If that also does not ring a bell for anyone.

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America
38 Slovenia
39 Cuba
40 Brunei

__________________

courtesy of http://www.who.int/en/

Now I do feel this bill has been bastardized a bit, Democrats have caved in far to much. I fear from what I am reading is that this will only allow the privatized insurance companies to just scrape more money out of the average person..... BUT I am happy with the standardization of drug costs across the board, and hopefully the regulation of expenses hospitals can bill out in the first place. NOT to mention the correction of Medicare expansion disgrace George signed off on......

In the end, this all comes down to reducing the cost of the care you receive, without hurting the quality, and THIS is VERY possible to achieve. IF you were to adapt a system similar to ours.

This bill is a step towards that.

Do not let a word like "socialist" scare you.


Just my thoughts.

_



My Cav
I give up...
i'm buying a VW those people love trees, so they should love eachother too... "Andy"
Re: Health care bill passes!!!!!!!
Thursday, March 25, 2010 2:44 PM on j-body.org
OK, OK, I'll allow it. I may not agree with much of it, but I'll allow it, if only based on the strength of the numbers.

I would like to see how salary and bennies have improved for doctors in the USA over the last, say, 40 years. If they've outpaced the rest of the population's income performance, then that's not cool either. I suspect they have. I'm all for someone who goes to school half their life being paid well, but they should not be able to become royalty over it either.








Re: Health care bill passes!!!!!!!
Thursday, March 25, 2010 4:58 PM on j-body.org
Short Hand, are you really going back to the WHO report again? I showed in the last thread you brought it up in exactly why the ratings system is flawed.

I really dont' feel like searching all the old threads to find the info I posted before, but some of the highlights were this:

One of the heavily weighted stats used is per capita expenditure on health care. When you have the most expensive procedures available that many countries don't even offer because of costs, that number is already skewed. Add to that the fact that operating any business, regardless of profits (or lack there of), is very expensive in the US for multiple reasons.

Another stat they rate on is overall health and life expentancy. Right in the reports findings (if you read those, and not just the numbers), it points out that many of the Mediterranian countries have the best overall health, and where the huge difference lies is that these countries have some of the lowest numbers of deaths due to heart disease. These countries also consume lots of olive products, which are known to lower many of the risk factors of heart-related issues. Americans are have also become increasingly lazy and obese on average, which further contributes to shorter life span. This has absolutely nothing to do with the health care systems, but it's a stat that's used to rate the healthcare industry.

With regards to this chart:



I will point out that some of these columns are going to get worse under this bill. For example, percentage of government revenue spent on health care, and number of doctors/nurses per 1,000 people. The percentage of revenue spent is obvious, as they are looking to spend more government money on it as part of their "fix". Next, when they start really trying to put the screws to the industry to force costs down (rather than actually looking at the root causes), less people will get into the industry, and many who are already in will leave.






Re: Health care bill passes!!!!!!!
Thursday, March 25, 2010 5:06 PM on j-body.org
Take Back the Republican Party wrote:

... You're buying into the Rightoric on this if you think otherwise....and if the Right keeps demonizing every effort at reform...
Bill, it's a little ironic that your first line in this is the claim someone is buying into the "right-wing" rhetoric, and then your last section repeats the false rhetoric constantly repeated by the left. The GOP has repeatedly tried to get real reform into the bill, including allowing people to purchase insurance across state lines, which increases real competition, and tort reform, which can drastically reduce malpractice insurance costs on doctors and hospitals. The fact is that they wanted nothing to do with the bill that was passed, and every time a supposed "bi-partisan" meeting took place, it was simply to try again to peel off some Republicans to support the bill as the Dems wanted it, not to actually incorporate their ideas. With regard to this statement:
Quote:

I would like to see how salary and bennies have improved for doctors in the USA over the last, say, 40 years. If they've outpaced the rest of the population's income performance, then that's not cool either. I suspect they have.
I haven't looked at these stats, but I would bet that their cost of schooling rose at least as fast as their salaries. Even if their salary growth outpaced the average sector, if their schooling outpaced their salary growth, would you feel the same?

Lastly, anyone see an irony in the date this bill was signed into law, considering the arm-twisting and vote-buying that it took to get it done, when the majority of Americans were opposed to it?





Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Thursday, March 25, 2010 5:09 PM



Re: Health care bill passes!!!!!!!
Thursday, March 25, 2010 11:12 PM on j-body.org
R.W.E. of the J.B.O. wrote:

Take Back the Republican Party wrote:

... You're buying into the Rightoric on this if you think otherwise....and if the Right keeps demonizing every effort at reform...
Bill, it's a little ironic that your first line in this is the claim someone is buying into the "right-wing" rhetoric, and then your last section repeats the false rhetoric constantly repeated by the left. The GOP has repeatedly tried to get real reform into the bill, including allowing people to purchase insurance across state lines, which increases real competition, and tort reform, which can drastically reduce malpractice insurance costs on doctors and hospitals. The fact is that they wanted nothing to do with the bill that was passed, and every time a supposed "bi-partisan" meeting took place, it was simply to try again to peel off some Republicans to support the bill as the Dems wanted it, not to actually incorporate their ideas. With regard to this statement:
Quote:

I would like to see how salary and bennies have improved for doctors in the USA over the last, say, 40 years. If they've outpaced the rest of the population's income performance, then that's not cool either. I suspect they have.
I haven't looked at these stats, but I would bet that their cost of schooling rose at least as fast as their salaries. Even if their salary growth outpaced the average sector, if their schooling outpaced their salary growth, would you feel the same?

Lastly, anyone see an irony in the date this bill was signed into law, considering the arm-twisting and vote-buying that it took to get it done, when the majority of Americans were opposed to it?


The 'real reforms' proposed by Repubs just fall far short of addressing the most vexing issues deeply enough. Paying lip service to an issue is not the same as embracing it for real change. Had the Right not aligned themselves so solidly against this reform as "socialism", they'd not find themselves in such a tight spot right now. Too damn bad, really. They might have made a difference. Now all they can do is cry foul because they're outnumbered.





Re: Health care bill passes!!!!!!!
Friday, March 26, 2010 4:55 AM on j-body.org
figuring in america's love of gluttony and greed being probalby the fattest people of any country probalby is the biggest factor or the whole life expectancy and cost.

and sorry but i prefer to pay for the progress or the mistake i make versus having my children pay for it, any time any goverment official says well were basing the cost off of the next 10 years income they always end up costing way more then they origonally figured, or the income generated is always less then what they expected. thats half the reason these states are in such poor condition.





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Re: Health care bill passes!!!!!!!
Friday, March 26, 2010 5:37 AM on j-body.org
When you have a doctor that has a gross income of $400K a year but has to shell out $300K in malpractice insurance there is a problem. This doctor did a lot of high risk surgeries for people that would have not survived otherwise. He was explaining that he has been sued for not performing them when it was a low chance of survivability and has been sued for performing them and the person not surviving as well. How someone can sue a doctor because a family member did not survive a 10% chance of survival surgery (knowing full well going in that they only have a 10% chance of surviving, and had a 0% chance of survival without the surgery) and win in court is utterly ridiculous.

I had several costumers that were doctors that paid out at least half their gross income to malpractice insurance because of the areas of medicine they practiced in. We live in a sue happy society and nobody seems to understand that ultimately the cost of these lawsuits is passed on to the end consumer.



Re: Health care bill passes!!!!!!!
Friday, March 26, 2010 7:06 AM on j-body.org
Quote:


One of the heavily weighted stats used is per capita expenditure on health care. When you have the most expensive procedures available that many countries don't even offer because of costs, that number is already skewed. Add to that the fact that operating any business, regardless of profits (or lack there of), is very expensive in the US for multiple reasons.


Your procedures are overpriced because of no regulation on the industry itself. Do you think other nations do not perform "break through" procedures at great expense as well ? Or maybe you haven't seen how expensive your prescriptions drugs are ?...(Need I bring up the story of how a pharmaceutical sales rep I know can sell pills in one state for 25 cents, and go to another and charge 25 dollars ? ) No good sir, the reason your costs are so high is because every slimy scoundrel is taking there cut. Trillions of dollars are there all for the taking. Your point on operating costs is also false, seeing as taxes up here are of a greater burden......


Quote:

Another stat they rate on is overall health and life expentancy. Right in the reports findings (if you read those, and not just the numbers), it points out that many of the Mediterranian countries have the best overall health, and where the huge difference lies is that these countries have some of the lowest numbers of deaths due to heart disease. These countries also consume lots of olive products, which are known to lower many of the risk factors of heart-related issues. Americans are have also become increasingly lazy and obese on average, which further contributes to shorter life span. This has absolutely nothing to do with the health care systems, but it's a stat that's used to rate the healthcare industry.


So your blaming fast food America, and Olive oil ? That seems a little crazy. AND let me illustrate to you WHY this point is is irrelevant.

Japan. Home to the highest population % of male smokers on our chart and home to a nation which THRIVES on Soy Sauce.. The amount the average Japanese person consumes in a week is more then what most Americans can consume in a year or two. Now what is so wrong with Soy Sauce ? Simple ! SODIUM !. AND we all know what Sodium does. (Liver, Blood Pressure, Hyper Tension etc.) Liver failure is a leading cause of death in this country !...

BUT despite ALL of this.......

they have the longest life expectancy on our chart my good man !


Sources
http://www.wpro.who.int/media_centre/fact_sheets/fs_20020528.htm

&

http://www.healingcrow.com/soy/soy.html



Quote:

I haven't looked at these stats, but I would bet that their cost of schooling rose at least as fast as their salaries. Even if their salary growth outpaced the average sector, if their schooling outpaced their salary growth, would you feel the same?

Lastly, anyone see an irony in the date this bill was signed into law, considering the arm-twisting and vote-buying that it took to get it done, when the majority of Americans were opposed to it?



Vote buying ? The only buying that went on was insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies LOBBYING billions over the past year to Republicans, and TV networks like FOX. Why in HIGH hell would they support a bill like this that cuts deeply into their coffers ? (insuring people who will cost more then they are worth, premium rates and regulating costs of pills).

AS I said before, this bill should have been a complete 180 reform, and converted your system into a Universal coverage system like that of the "Socialist nations", but this is a big step.









_



My Cav
I give up...
i'm buying a VW those people love trees, so they should love eachother too... "Andy"

Re: Health care bill passes!!!!!!!
Friday, March 26, 2010 7:08 AM on j-body.org
Also note that Nations like the UK, and Canada also eat TO MUCH fast food. Yet are ahead on this chart !



My Cav
I give up...
i'm buying a VW those people love trees, so they should love eachother too... "Andy"
Re: Health care bill passes!!!!!!!
Friday, March 26, 2010 9:27 AM on j-body.org
mitdr774 wrote:

When you have a doctor that has a gross income of $400K a year but has to shell out $300K in malpractice insurance there is a problem. This doctor did a lot of high risk surgeries for people that would have not survived otherwise. He was explaining that he has been sued for not performing them when it was a low chance of survivability and has been sued for performing them and the person not surviving as well. How someone can sue a doctor because a family member did not survive a 10% chance of survival surgery (knowing full well going in that they only have a 10% chance of surviving, and had a 0% chance of survival without the surgery) and win in court is utterly ridiculous.

I had several costumers that were doctors that paid out at least half their gross income to malpractice insurance because of the areas of medicine they practiced in. We live in a sue happy society and nobody seems to understand that ultimately the cost of these lawsuits is passed on to the end consumer.


Good points all. Seems two "industries" that keep getting fatter and fatter off the common man are insurance and legal. Perhaps THAT would be a telling stat...how much more we pay these days into those two compared to the past. Would love to see THAT trend even more!





Re: Health care bill passes!!!!!!!
Friday, March 26, 2010 9:30 AM on j-body.org
Short Hand wrote:

Also note that Nations like the UK, and Canada also eat TO MUCH fast food. Yet are ahead on this chart !


Your chart, while admirable, has already been pretty thoroughly debunked. It's not an objective enough comparison to use on an aspect-by-aspect basis. No definitive standards of comparison were used in deriving this data. It's just not dependable enough to make sweeping statements using it as a basis for anything other than opinion.





Re: Health care bill passes!!!!!!!
Friday, March 26, 2010 10:35 AM on j-body.org
The chart hasn't been debunked at all. You have just proclaimed it so.

There is a difference.



My Cav
I give up...
i'm buying a VW those people love trees, so they should love eachother too... "Andy"
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