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Origin of species
Thursday, August 23, 2007 4:43 AM on j-body.org
So I was reading up on the post about noah's ark, and it got me to thinking. Then I was sure that i could smell something burning. Here is what i came up with.
1: Matter just appeared from absolutely nothing. OR
2: An omnipotent being (God) has always been and created all.
I cannot conceive or even begin to understand either one.
After statements 1 and 2, how can the supernatural be so absurd to most people?
Discuss




Re: Origin of species
Thursday, August 23, 2007 5:00 AM on j-body.org
What a great topic. I can honestly say im at a loss for words. But I can sure say i DONT believe in creationism thats just a load of hoey in my book. And if you try and argue a point with those people the get all angry and dont wanna talk to you any more. Kinda like scientologists. Hey Tom its John Travolta you gotta come outta the closet, Oh my god.





Re: Origin of species
Thursday, August 23, 2007 7:29 AM on j-body.org
The supernatural is just natural processes that aren't fully documented or cannot be fully explained....yet.


Goodbye Callisto, Hello Skađi:
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The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
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Re: Origin of species
Thursday, August 23, 2007 8:34 AM on j-body.org
^^^ Werd.

The other thing: a true "World-Wide" flood would be impossible. Utterly impossible. While there might have been a tremendous regional flood, it's beyond the known realm of physics for the literal translation of the bible to have happened.

Think of it like this: in French, when you say "Toute le Monde" you're not literally talking about "all the World," you're talking about your group. I think the world-wide flood was constrained about the immediate area of the nile.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.


Re: Origin of species
Thursday, August 23, 2007 11:00 AM on j-body.org
Thats a cool thought, especially when you look at a globe, it seems like all the continents used to fit together like a puzzle. But i didnt meant to start a whole new thread about the flood. Just trying to show folks that you have to have just as much faith in the world creating itself by accident as would have to with a supreme being. Or at least get prople thinking and have a friendly chat.



Re: Origin of species
Thursday, August 23, 2007 1:55 PM on j-body.org
swag wrote:

Thats a cool thought, especially when you look at a globe, it seems like all the continents used to fit together like a puzzle. But i didnt meant to start a whole new thread about the flood. Just trying to show folks that you have to have just as much faith in the world creating itself by accident as would have to with a supreme being. Or at least get prople thinking and have a friendly chat.


It's because they were all together at one time. Pangea (sp?) was the original supercontinent until continental drift seperated everything to the way things are now. I'm not sure how the world came to be, I'm not to concerned since I'm here and alive so why complain? It's interesting to know pre-history but not something I would pour money into.


*****************************************************
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* Student of the University of Oklahoma. Go Sooners!
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Re: Origin of species
Thursday, August 23, 2007 2:38 PM on j-body.org
I think the greatest testament to any supreme being's existence, is that we're still curious about how things started.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.


Re: Origin of species
Thursday, August 23, 2007 3:32 PM on j-body.org
it takes faith to believe in anything
if there was a supreme being that created everything, what created the supreme being?
and if there wasnt a supreme being, nothing would have to be made of something in order for something to be created, wouldn't it?
as hermes from futurama once said
SWEET HONEY BEE OF INFINITY
at some point there has to be a definite right?



Re: Origin of species
Thursday, August 23, 2007 3:53 PM on j-body.org
Nah...




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.


Re: Origin of species
Thursday, August 23, 2007 3:56 PM on j-body.org
who's to say our little universe is nothing more than a quark in some other larger world

no beginning, no end, no worries



Re: Origin of species
Thursday, August 23, 2007 4:09 PM on j-body.org
Science keeps pluggin away at our origins trying to discover our creation.

I recently read a published article that illustrates the creation of life through meteors harbouring micro organisms that strike planetary bodies. Our rock we call Earth just happened to be at the right place at the right time. The speculation and unconclusive findings as of yet paint a pretty colourful proprosed history for Mars, as the universe is ever expanding and it too was once in that 'sweet spot' orbit we now sail and shares many similarities to Earth that are more then coincidence.

Nature is too perfect in its chaos to have been painted by one brush, one being. Period. I see religion and such classifications as a way to give meaning and definition to something we as of yet cannot truly understand. Religion as a history, paradox as a present, science as a future.

This common logic statement applies to evolution:' When in a time of neccessity, change is made' This regards the theory that our micro organism roots were forced to evolve by viruses that attacked them. As viruses evolved, so did the micro organisms to combat them. Same thing for the big bang theory; matter and anti-matter. Ying and yang. A force is applied and it has equal or greater reaction where it is applied.

As for the supernatural occurances.. yet another realm of exsistance we cannot understand. Study of multiple dimensions has been unconclusive but findings have raised proposed theories to explain these occurances. A big hint towards this is near-death and out of body experiences which are always under study and have yet to be explained by physical or chemical means.




Re: Origin of species
Thursday, August 23, 2007 7:11 PM on j-body.org
"Science" doesn't do much on it's own, people have to apply it's principles to determine the validity of beliefs.

That, and the Seed theory is not proved conclusively... it requires amino acids to have survived astronomical odds, after making (basically) a 1:10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (yes, a googol) shot to hit our planet. If you figure it, you'd have better luck winning a lottery jack pot 15,000 times consecutively....and whats the fun in that after a while.

Oh... Near death experiences have been replicated (white light, being drawn in, seeing long dead family) when inducing hypothermia in individuals. Russian Doctors that use the therapy typically tell a patient to "focus on your life and living on, know that you will be safe and well while being treated by the doctor. Basically the patients would get the stereo-typical post death vision.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.


Re: Origin of species
Thursday, August 23, 2007 10:58 PM on j-body.org
I dont think that people are getting the fact that odds and possibilites mean nothing. The biggest Odds were overcome when something came from nothing, therefore anything is possible.



Re: Origin of species
Friday, August 24, 2007 7:37 AM on j-body.org
^^^
WRONG!!!!! (sorry, but i'm passionate about that)

Something never comes from nothing. Something always comes from something. Thus: no end and nop beginning in the grand scheme of things (in my own opinion, of course). You--for example, are a combination of living sex cells from your parents, and water, carbohydrates, lipids, ammino acds, and minerals. You came from something. Everything did. it just changed states--which is one of the only coinstants there is.

Further, GAM: Even though the chances of ammino acids forming/reacing us are about 1 in a googol, that just makes it improbable, not impossible. Nothing is impossible...

Okay, maybe a government that actually carews for it's people rather than it's own interests is impossible, but we've only been in existance for the blink of an eye in respect to the universe's timescale. So that one may never be proven possible.



Goodbye Callisto, Hello Skađi:
2008 Pontiac G6 GXP Street Edition Coupe

The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

Re: Origin of species
Friday, August 24, 2007 8:15 AM on j-body.org
You know keeper, I like you because I haven't seen you be an a-hole to someone just for having a different opinion. But now we do agree that something has always been in the universe. We just dont agree on what has always been.



Re: Origin of species
Friday, August 24, 2007 9:55 AM on j-body.org
Quote:

2: An omnipotent being (God) has always been and created all.


Ive also wondered this. I can understand something lasting forever, thats easy, but how can something have always been? I understand it but just cant wrap my brain around it, its like there has to be a beginning somewhere





Re: Origin of species
Friday, August 24, 2007 10:18 AM on j-body.org
Who knows? Our feeble human perception can't even see the "beginning" of the universe--much less what was before it. Likely, we won't be able to see the "end" and what it (should) become.

But it stands to logic that only something can become something else, and only nothing can become nothing else (wrap your brain around that for awhile ). Thus, even if there was a "deity" that created this (assuming we take all religious contect out of this to make it more universal to all creationist religions) universe, they had to create it out of something, even something so subtle that we cannot comprehend it.

As such, i don't think anything was "created from nothing", since something went into it's construction.


Goodbye Callisto, Hello Skađi:
2008 Pontiac G6 GXP Street Edition Coupe

The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

Re: Origin of species
Friday, August 24, 2007 3:57 PM on j-body.org
I'm a sucker for threads like this

I'm a believer in evolution but I understand that there are problems with the origin of the Universe and life. Unlike creationists, who ignore the overwhelming evidence pointing toward an Old Universe and evolving life, I can accept both a God and evolution. God is indeed a creator, as in He created the Big Bang. So.... abstractly speaking he did "create" the Universe, just not already formed. And who's to say that God didn't plant the seeds of life on Earth?

I am not ignoring science either however... if life started on Mars and got to us on a meteorite, so be it. If the Universe is actually a complex of a billion universes and we are in a never ending cyclic pattern of formation/destruction of Universes... so be it too. I just don't see why God and science are so uncompatible to the Fundamentalist movement. The basic flaw of Fundamentalist argument is that they assume the Bible as unfallible and true and THEN interpret the evidence as fitting that story (this involves making up alot of BS). Then they get a few "born-again" (they always seem to be!) scientists to spew their crap as "science". Unfortunately, their whole logic is messed up since you cannot assume the Bible is completely true since you can't ask God himself. So if the first point "the Bible is infallible" is false, then all creation science cannot be logical. And this is before any mention of science leaves my lips! Science starts with observations, hypotheses, testing, and conclusions. The evidence laid out in front of us doesn't lie to us. It isn't fake or 2000 year old print. We then made our theories based on the research.... and it so happens that 95% of scientists believe the same thing. You can't say that about Christians, that's for damn sure!

I hope more for the existence of God because I can't comprehend death leading to nothing... but I don't want to ponder the meaning of life in this thread



Re: Origin of species
Saturday, August 25, 2007 4:27 AM on j-body.org
okay, I think I am going to lose even myself on this one, but.........................
Assuming that all things living and non-living were not created, then that would mean that ALL matter has always just been. I mean since something cannot just create itself from nothing.



Re: Origin of species
Saturday, August 25, 2007 8:55 AM on j-body.org
all matter can't just "be" w/o coming from somewhere. and i really can't imagine why people can't accept creative evolution as an answer. simply put: we are here. we had to come from somewhere and the chances of our meticulously planned universe all being a chance fitting...? sorry, but i can't believe that.

but the idea that SOMEthing SOMEwhere at SOMEtime had a hand in our creation? now that makes sense. you can pick or choose your creator, thats up to you, but i believe that you really have to believe in something. and it isnt for the life after death part either...tell me there is nothing past when we die and thats fine. i think the idea that everything in our world and our universe is just a random chance from a big bang....well that just doesnt work out well at all as a theory IMO. but the idea that we are here because of something? that makes sense. maybe we are just sea monkeys to a something that we consider to be a deity? i cant say and neither can anyone else. no one in our lifetime or at any time will ever have conclusive proof of, well, anything.

and that is my one real problem with science (yeah i can almost hear you science nuts groaning and rolling your eyes right now lol). basically, science is....well, nothing. we can "prove" science only based upon principles that we accept. and it doesnt matter what we can "prove" now....it might be unproven later. the world used to be flat and the earth was the center of the solar system and if you were sick a doctor would drain the bad blood from your system, et al. all of that was known to be true at one point or another. what will be discovered in 100 years that will make the people now look like fools? what about 500? 1000? science is just our best explanation for today. people who put all their stock in science need to realize that tomorrow science may "prove" all past science wrong....its just the nature of science in itself. and if you are able to realize that, then doesnt it take just as much faith to believe in science as it does creationism?




Re: Origin of species
Saturday, August 25, 2007 11:09 AM on j-body.org
Quote:

all matter can't just "be" w/o coming from somewhere. and i really can't imagine why people can't accept creative evolution as an answer

I agree... I think created evolution is a good compromise... the Bible believers get their God and most of the Bible and scientists get evolution and the Old Earth. I think nobody loses in that case. On the contrary, God can explain the mysteries of the Universe's beginning and science can explain the history of the Universe and life. It's the Literalists that piss and moan and cause this.


Quote:

and it isnt for the life after death part either...tell me there is nothing past when we die and thats fine

interesting... but don't you fear death then? All the knowledge, relationships in your life will be meaningless... you won't see your dead relatives. It just seems like a bleak outlook and takes away any meaning to life.


Quote:

i think the idea that everything in our world and our universe is just a random chance from a big bang....well that just doesnt work out well at all as a theory IMO.

well, something like the Big Bang occurred since the Universe is expanding away from a central point. What else can that mean? God would not have created a formed Universe like this unless he was a deceiver. And the timescale of the Universe is so long that anything is possible by chance. You have millions of years for a species to form, plenty of time for a species to gradually evolve. And you aren't building from scratch every time, the mutations are small additive/deletions/replacements that modify an existing genome.

Quote:

and that is my one real problem with science (yeah i can almost hear you science nuts groaning and rolling your eyes right now lol). basically, science is....

that's the beauty of science actually. The first part of that (Earth flat, alchemy, bleeding diseases) is all Middle Age and ancient belief. Keep in mind that we didn't know much on medicine, surgery, or anatomy back then. The beauty of science IS that is keeps changing. It is able to change to fit new discoveries. If it didn't, it wouldn't be science (maybe creation!). And yes, in 1000 years we may know alot more, but most of science's core beliefs will still be there. We will just add to it all. Keep in mind that science has given us everything we take for granted. All of our math, engineering, technology, physics, biology (all the ologies), genetics, ecology, archaeology, paleantology, medicine/surgery, etc. It all is rooted in science. I'd have to say that science is the most important thing for human advancement!




Re: Origin of species
Sunday, August 26, 2007 6:19 AM on j-body.org
now i do believe in god so i should be careful with what i say.... however when i think about religion, for me catholic religion, i cant help but wonder if it was just created with the itention to control people. think about it. shall not kill, shall not steal, shall not... etc. it seems like it is imaginable that way back after people starting having some sort of society it was needed for there to be some sort of control. maybe people wouldnt obey laws, maybe laws didnt exist yet but now bob found a book and in it the being who created us all wanted us to obey these rules. and luck be it these rules also benefit society as well.

i just cant help but in the back of my mind think what if the bible is just a man made book designed to control what people do as much as possible because way back laws, or just saying dont do something, wasnt enough without "well god said you cant in this book".

not saying thats the answer but interesting when you think about it!
Re: Origin of species
Sunday, August 26, 2007 1:59 PM on j-body.org
This is going to make someone really mad, but it wasnt God or the bible that was made to control people, it was most forms of organized religion. Anytime human being are thrown in the mix, things take a turn for the worse. For instance with catholics, Christ's sacrifice wasnt enough, you must still pay money to the church, say "enough" hail marys, and beat thyself on the head a certain number of times. Now of course I believe in the giving to the church, but in no way can money be used for remission of sins.



Re: Origin of species
Sunday, August 26, 2007 6:06 PM on j-body.org
What about Mormons? Mormons REQUIRE you to tithe (meaning fork over) 10% of whatever you make to the church. (BTW, Catholicism as a religion accepts offerings, but doesn't require you to pay anything to belong to the congregation).

Catholicism is not at all alone in accepting money for cleansing, either. EVERY church, EVERY religion and EVERY faith that allows has been in possession of a corrupted individual or two that would take payment for absolution.

I see what you're saying, but before you slap someone else in the face unintentionally, you may want to verify what you're saying first.


(BTW, something must come from something... Even if you bring God into the mix: Genesis 1.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.


Re: Origin of species
Sunday, August 26, 2007 8:42 PM on j-body.org
Keeper of the Light™ wrote:

^^^
WRONG!!!!! (sorry, but i'm passionate about that)

Something never comes from nothing. Something always comes from something. Thus: no end and nop beginning in the grand scheme of things (in my own opinion, of course). You--for example, are a combination of living sex cells from your parents, and water, carbohydrates, lipids, ammino acds, and minerals. You came from something. Everything did. it just changed states--which is one of the only coinstants there is.

Further, GAM: Even though the chances of ammino acids forming/reacing us are about 1 in a googol, that just makes it improbable, not impossible. Nothing is impossible...

Okay, maybe a government that actually carews for it's people rather than it's own interests is impossible, but we've only been in existance for the blink of an eye in respect to the universe's timescale. So that one may never be proven possible.


Actually, if you look into quantum physics, things are created from nothing, and things disappear into nothing. Single particles are able to go through two places at once, while being a wave and a particle without being either at the same time (wave particle duality). Quantum physics only apply to things very very small (subatomic particles), and things very very big (universe). Just because something doesn't agree with Newtonian Physics (what we use for everyday stuff), doesn't mean it is impossible. So you see, something doesn't have to come from something, something CAN come from nothing. We are just scratching the surface of quantum physics, and I believe the secrets of the universe will be discovered once we fully understand this.



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