Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps - Page 3 - Performance Forum

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Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Tuesday, February 09, 2010 2:19 PM
SS-J wrote:
Roofy wrote:So I ask, what is the advantage of fabbing up an external trigger setup, dropping in an engine NOT DESIGNED FOR OUR CARS, and running it on a retarded ECM???


Emissions friendly

11:1 CR

2.4L displacment.

No real wiring required.

and HPT is more then capable of handling the tune.
These are all good reasons, but the reason I want an LE5 bottom end under my L61 head is that bottom end has been proven to about 400 hp.

The prospect that started this thread is dead, but the idea was to have an easy bottom end swap that played nice with the Jbody ECU. And don't kid yourself, if not for the crank trigger, it would play nice, VERY nice .


Once you start ripping out wiring and going stand alone as PJ has/is, you're in another realm completely from what the intention was here. It is not "a little bit more work" as you say, Roofy. A bottom end swap could be done in a day's time by an experienced mechanic, even in the back yard, with the right tools. We are seeing with PJ's swap thread how long it can take to go stand alone, and he's a very capable individual!

As far as the point of building a better L61 for the cost of sourcing an LE5 bottom end - you may be right or you may not. To properly install forged rods and pistons in an L61 you need about 600-700 in parts and maybe as much in labor if you're doing it right (cylinder honing and proper assembly). If you try to make a 2.4L out of the L61 your looking at MUCH greater than that (custom pistons/sleeves/assembly). PJ already found two LE5s for 900 complete. Honestly that's even more than i wanted to spend.

One more nit-picky thing - you won't "easily" get the LNF, LE5 or LAP to run well on a stand alone because of direct injection and/or VVT. I've not seen a standalone yet that will adequately control those, hence the L61 head on the LE5 bottom end prospect.




Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Tuesday, February 09, 2010 2:21 PM
Roofy wrote:
DaFlyinSkwirl (Pj) v2.0 wrote:Sometimes I'm not sure why I bother participating in these threads.

every question asked here was answered over a year ago, probably getting closer to 2 by now.


if its so easy, someone @!#$ do it.


Thank you PJ.

It would probably be less labor-intensive to just drop in an LAP/LNF/LSX/LE5/Whatever Ecotec, and go full stand-alone. Then the tuning capabilities are endless. Not to mention the fact that a FAR BETTER AND STRONGER built engine can be had for just as cheap as sourcing a complete LSJ drivetrain. So I ask, what is the advantage of fabbing up an external trigger setup, dropping in an engine NOT DESIGNED FOR OUR CARS, and running it on a retarded ECM???


Legality.

Because putting in a stand alone makes no sense on an emissions controlled vehicle if you're trying to stay within the bounds of the law. It is considered emissions tampering, and is a pretty hefty fine and max penalty for first time offense is jail time. If you're going to go through the trouble of putting a high flow cat in you exhaust, then sticking within the the stock ECM for the most part, makes sense.

Quiet.

the external view of the LE5 without the oil cooler vs the L61 is indistinguishable. The external trigger is the only thing that would give you away, and in most cases, people wouldn't notice it anyway.

HP per dollar.

its all theory, but an LE5 is basically a $900 stroker kit (or cheaper if you can find one in the yard). This is a complete engine, sell the head, and other misc. crap because all you need is the short block, and you recoup some of the money you spent.

throw it under an L61 head and compression is bumped up (how much, I'm not sure) you have an 88mm piston feeding into an 86-87mm combustion chamber. The le5 already has 0.4 higher compression, so that coupled with a smaller chamber, its a cheap way to get close to 10.6-11:1 compression. What are custom pistons going for nowadays? $800+ and however long you have to wait? Not to mention you'd be a fool not to upgrade the rods while you were in there too, so that bumps cost up another $300-$400

I think an LE5 under an L61 head running on HPT can be comparable to a turbocharged stock 2.2 on 10psi. think in the neighborhood of 200-220whp. Only the LE5 would be naturally aspirated, and make its torque earlier due to its lower rod/stroke ratio. Not ideal for a high rpm screamer, but its a direct bolt up to the F23 transmission, uses the same clutch and flywheel as the L61, and will keep revs reasonable so high rpm shifting with the F23 won't be a problem. And overall it'll be simpler, more reliable, and in all seriousness, probably a hell of a lot more fun.

But I'm realistic. I know there's a lot of what-ifs. I don't think the LE5 will run very nicely on L61 cams, ecotecfiero is having these problems. I think it stems from the lack of duration.. longer stroke = longer duration on the cams, but the stock 2.2 cams just can't deliver. I think comp "stage 3s" (hi rpm street/strip) will get an LE5/L61 hybrid running well enough, but I guess we won't know for sure until somebody tries it.. and I think it'll boil down to someone having to have custom cams made.

I fully intend on making my daily driven 2004 a hybrid LE5 bottom end with an L61 top end, but I have to finish the skwirl first.
So if anyone wants to step up to the plate and make a bolt on 7x trigger that will work on the LE5 and LSJ I'll be the first in line to buy one.

But, I still don't see one.






Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Tuesday, February 09, 2010 2:24 PM
Just to clarify the reason my car is taking so long is because I'm redoing EVERYTHING.

I honestly haven't worked much on the stand alone... elimination of the BCM, ABS, SRS, HVAC, Radio, EVAP, and other useless crap is whats taking me the longest amount of time.

If you were to just install a stand alone into the car on top of the existing electrical, it really wouldn't take that long. I haven't even run a single wire for the stand alone yet, I've just been moving, simplifying and removing as much as I can from the stock harness to make the car simpler and cleaner... and easier to troubleshoot should I have an electrical problem.





Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Tuesday, February 09, 2010 3:14 PM
I didn't mean to imply that the ONLY reason it's taking so long is the stand alone, but you have to admit, it takes a good deal of time and skill to get it installed, and a GREAT deal of skill to get it running.

I mentioned earlier that an LE5 bottom end swap on my car would include a ported/built L61 head with bumpier cams. I could see this combo approaching 200whp. However, if you only want 200whp, BOOST THE L61!!!. The LE5 gives you room to make 350-400whp. Just don't forget the thicker head gasket



Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Wednesday, February 10, 2010 6:42 PM
How much would a crank pulley like this cost? I'd be interested.



Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Thursday, February 11, 2010 3:06 AM
A one off is around $300 plus trigger wheel. At least that is what it has been costing me lately.




PRND321 Till I DIE
Old Motor: 160whp & 152ft/lbs, 1/4 Mile 15.4 @88.2
M45 + LD9 + 4T40-E, GO GO GO
Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Thursday, February 11, 2010 3:47 AM
DaFlyinSkwirl (Pj) v2.0 wrote:But, I still don't see one.


If your trying to motivate people with a 'prove me wrong' technique....you will be waiting a while cause that does nothing for me, I've got nothing to prove to anybody on here, and I got a build of my own to work on. Not to mention an a$$ load of discrete MS controls to build and program for factory gauge control and factory sensor fakes I've been putting off. So, if you guys are actually not interested in an external solution then please say that, and I will not bother with it.

EDIT: Sorry to sound like a whiny biotch...didn't mean for it to come off that way, but that's how I read after second look. Just let me know what you guys want to do. If you would rather do the internal route..cool, if you guys are interested in a similar setup like Mike and I did for the LD9 just let me know.


Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Thursday, February 11, 2010 6:43 PM

"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Friday, February 12, 2010 2:37 PM

I think I should clarify what PJ said about my setup.


Even if your going to do the work for a LE5/L61 Hybrid (which I have been running for the 2 years) you wont be happy with it, like PJ stated, the stock L61 do not work well with the LE5 bottom end. After speaking with more machine shops and cam builders than I want to admit, I do not think any standard Ecotec L61 staged cam will work well with the LE5, I think to maximize the LE5/L61 hybrid custom cams are needed.


I should have my website up and running by the end of the month, DICEPD.com I will be selling 7x adapters for the stock pulley.



Pontiac Fiero powered by L61/LE5 Ecotec "Innovation is a new level of performance"
Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Friday, February 12, 2010 3:15 PM
This has sparked my curiosity, so I figured I'd look into it.

I don't wanna bust any bubbles here but, for an All-Motor set-up this isn't really worth while.

I've been planing a All-Motor build for quite some time now, which is comprised of the following:

Comp Stage 3 N/A Grind Cams
Si Stainless Valves
12:1 Pistons
Forged Rods
P&P Head
Supporting mods

Total compression should be in the ~12.4 range (Valves are flat faced).

Now I have all this entered into Desktop Dyno, which might not be BANG ON the Horse power output levels, but it very accurately can show the difference between two different set-ups.

When I run that setup with the L61 2.2L bottom end I get:

252bhp @ 8000rpm
211btq @ 5000rpm

When I run that exact same setup substituting for the LE5 2.4L bottom end I get:

257bhp @ 7000rpm
225btq @ 5000rpm


As you can see there is a gain but its not very substantial. It is effective at shifting the power band lower, however torque falls off after 5000rpm a lot quicker than on the L61.

If this was meant for a drag car, the extra Torque would not be usable, as it is out of the RPM range while racing.


For boosted applications this will probably be quite a bit more lucrative, but IMO not really worth it if your staying on the motor.

Take it for what its worth, just trying to help.








Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Saturday, February 13, 2010 3:55 AM
DICE PD aka ecotecfiero wrote:I think I should clarify what PJ said about my setup.


Even if your going to do the work for a LE5/L61 Hybrid (which I have been running for the 2 years) you wont be happy with it, like PJ stated, the stock L61 do not work well with the LE5 bottom end. After speaking with more machine shops and cam builders than I want to admit, I do not think any standard Ecotec L61 staged cam will work well with the LE5, I think to maximize the LE5/L61 hybrid custom cams are needed.


I should have my website up and running by the end of the month, DICEPD.com I will be selling 7x adapters for the stock pulley.
Can you describe the symptoms that you are experiencing in more detail? Also, are they anything that a GT30R @ 25psi and comp turbo cams on a worked over L61 head cannot cure? Can't wait for the adapter!!

Newt - like I've been saying, the LE5 bottom end under the L61 head is a waste of time for an all motor build. It gives you a studier bottom end that holds up to about 400hp, so boost is a necessity . I feel sorta like a broken record, but to me, the LE5 bottom end was an alternative to a costly build on the L61 bottom end to make it handle 400hp.



Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Saturday, February 13, 2010 5:32 PM
DICE PD aka ecotecfiero wrote:I think I should clarify what PJ said about my setup.


Even if your going to do the work for a LE5/L61 Hybrid (which I have been running for the 2 years) you wont be happy with it, like PJ stated, the stock L61 do not work well with the LE5 bottom end. After speaking with more machine shops and cam builders than I want to admit, I do not think any standard Ecotec L61 staged cam will work well with the LE5, I think to maximize the LE5/L61 hybrid custom cams are needed.


I should have my website up and running by the end of the month, DICEPD.com I will be selling 7x adapters for the stock pulley.


Interested, but why won't we be happy with it? Driveability issues? My car already runs like @!#$ with the blower cams.
I'm looking in my area for a used 2.4L and there are plenty available under $800.






Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Tuesday, February 16, 2010 1:13 PM

Let me show you guys some stuff,


I am not really interested in hearing peoples opinion on my G-tech, however its very dead on with my desktop dyno results, and simply gives me a benchmark and something to base modifications off, and live tuning....


Here is the results, these are old, before I realized I had an issue.



The numbers on there are net horsepower numbers, remember net power is after wind resistance, aerodynamics, drivetrain loss, etc everything.

But thats not the point really, the point is where the power was peaking, in runs after that, I got it dialed in, peak power was near 4400-4600 on stock L61 cams.

If you take a look at the Cam spec sheet off of google, you will see the L61 does not come near the LE5 cams in lift or duration, and the L61 cams should make power near 5200.

I tried adjusting cam timing, the stock cam gears allow for I believe 7.62 degrees either way, which didnt help much.

However because the torque curve, the car was VERY streetable, but max power sucked, I could spin it out on a corner, but you would go WOT and it would just SCREAM to 6200 or so and hardly be going any faster.

FYI, I purchased the LE5 for 300 dollars out of Detroit 30k on it, 2007 Cobalt SS, it was damaged but I got going without any issues.



Pontiac Fiero powered by L61/LE5 Ecotec "Innovation is a new level of performance"
Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Tuesday, February 16, 2010 5:53 PM
Comparing my Blower cams to the le5 cams, they look fairly similar in spec.

My comp cams have higher lift than the le5 cams, and the intake duration is almost the same (210.3 le5 vs. 210 comp cams)
The comp blower cams have a bit more exhaust duration (195.4 le5 vs. 218 comp cams)

This swap might work great with the possibility of adjustable cam gears and degree'ng the cams.



Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Tuesday, February 16, 2010 6:02 PM
I'm sure you're aware, but the VVT on the LE5 flattens out the torque curve quite nicely. If you have some spare time and HPT, download a file just to look at the cam tables - they are pretty wild looking!

In any case, I would not expect a stock L61 head/cams on an LE5 bottom end to yield dramatic results, nor would I call your particular results unexpected. The L61/LE5 needs headwork, cams and boost! - about 400hp worth! /thread



Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Tuesday, February 16, 2010 7:09 PM
back on topic, just to drive the nail in the coffin for this "ring under a ring" nonsense.



found an LSJ crank on ebay. you can see the holes for the bolt on ring, but there's nothing underneath.








Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Tuesday, February 16, 2010 9:25 PM
DaFlyinSkwirl (Pj) v2.0 wrote:back on topic, just to drive the nail in the coffin for this "ring under a ring" nonsense.



found an LSJ crank on ebay. you can see the holes for the bolt on ring, but there's nothing underneath.


Told ya!




Currently #4 in Ecotec Forced Induction horsepower ratings. 505.8 WHP 414WTQ!!!
Currently 3rd quickest Ecotec on the .org - 10.949 @ 131.50 MPH!!!

Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 8:42 PM
(Tom) S/C Fire wrote:Comparing my Blower cams to the le5 cams, they look fairly similar in spec.

My comp cams have higher lift than the le5 cams, and the intake duration is almost the same (210.3 le5 vs. 210 comp cams)
The comp blower cams have a bit more exhaust duration (195.4 le5 vs. 218 comp cams)

This swap might work great with the possibility of adjustable cam gears and degree'ng the cams.


Those might be OK for a stock setup.


However my custom cams will be closer to the stage 3 comp cams, with obvious differences to make up for the bore/stroke difference.

While I am not going to boost yet, its a thought. My setup I cant supercharge but a turbo setup has the room, I want it simple for now. We are crossing our fingers for near 250bhp before we quit on N/A.



Pontiac Fiero powered by L61/LE5 Ecotec "Innovation is a new level of performance"
Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Tuesday, March 02, 2010 10:05 AM
TTT

Any word on production external crank triggers?



Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Tuesday, March 02, 2010 6:39 PM


Here is another pic of the wheel installed.




Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Wednesday, March 03, 2010 4:12 AM
what exactly are we looking at there, SS-J?



Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Wednesday, March 03, 2010 11:20 PM
oldskool wrote:what exactly are we looking at there, SS-J?


The part in the red is the crank trigger wheel installed.

Its obvious that installed there is no 7x trigger underneath.

but this bugs me because obviously its just a piece of steel. I mean if we as a community are able to make custom pullys and neutral balance shafts and custom ground cams then why cant somebody buy blanks of these and have a 7x pattern stamped out of them. this would eliminate the need for an external trigger and allow the use of the bottom end of the LSJ or LE5 to work with an L61 head. (with tuning but it is possible.)

The sensor doesn't know its suppose to read 32x or 7x or 53x all it does is sense if there is something there or not.

i have a feeling that MD enforcer could probable make this even and if he cant i sure bet he would know a guy that could.

And all the sensor reads is when there is a gap missing for crank position.



That's it this isn't rocket science.




Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Thursday, March 04, 2010 3:33 AM
Yes, Joshua Dearman is more than capable of making them.





PRND321 Till I DIE
Old Motor: 160whp & 152ft/lbs, 1/4 Mile 15.4 @88.2
M45 + LD9 + 4T40-E, GO GO GO
Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Thursday, March 04, 2010 4:18 AM
MD- Hmm, do you know for how much?

SS-J - is that an LE5 or LSJ bottom end. Not that it matters, i'm just curious.

I'm in the process of building an L61 head now; I don't want to give up on this prospect!



Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Thursday, March 04, 2010 11:07 AM
-MD- Enforcer wrote:Yes, Joshua Dearman is more than capable of making them.


I had a feeling you would know a guy lol

oldskool wrote:SS-J - is that an LE5 or LSJ bottom end. Not that it matters, i'm just curious.


Its an LSJ





Re: Eco crank trigger revisited - LE5/LSJ bottom end swaps
Thursday, March 04, 2010 4:44 PM
keep in mind, the reference points for 60-2 and 6+1 patterns work differently.

the 2 missing teeth on the 60-2 pattern, don't necessarily coincide with TDC on cylinder #1. that is just the reference tooth. the actual tooth that crosses the sensor that coincides with TDC could be as many as 20 teeth after the reference.

the 6+1 pattern has an extra notch that occurs 70* after TDC. It could line up with the 60-2 pattern, it could not. my point is it isn't simply a matter of trace and go.

not to mention, you have to get the bolt pattern to the crank right, and it has to be spaced evenly in order to spin true and consistently.
the part would be simple to make, but making it accurate enough to fit and work is another story.



not to mention, that while we do solve the problem of the external trigger, you have to remove the crank to swap the rings.





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