Evilution's 2011 Rebuild - Page 5 - Photos & Media Forum

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Re: Evilution's 2011 Rebuild
Saturday, June 02, 2012 6:51 PM
double check your cps and its mating plug. i had that issue when i had a 03harness n a 05motor it clicked together but pins were off enough. once pulled n measured i lined in the old harness plig n boom fired right up. maythis be the case no but worth a look.




Re: Evilution's 2011 Rebuild
Saturday, June 02, 2012 7:33 PM
Bluedriftcavy(Eco Swapper) wrote:double check your cps and its mating plug. i had that issue when i had a 03harness n a 05motor it clicked together but pins were off enough. once pulled n measured i lined in the old harness plig n boom fired right up. maythis be the case no but worth a look.


No mating harness. Ckp connector on the ld9 harness plugs directly into the ckp.






Re: Evilution's 2011 Rebuild
Saturday, June 02, 2012 8:26 PM
sorry i musta not said it how i was thinking. what i was getting at is even tho the ld9harness is plugging on the pins on the sensor may be slightly off vs the inside of the sensor. example the sensor on my motor was 1/100th off vs the plug from the older harness.they are gapped slightly diff.



Re: Evilution's 2011 Rebuild
Sunday, June 03, 2012 5:22 PM
Ok, here's where we at:

Car will turn over, run for like 3-4 seconds, then die. Giving it some gas does not help it stay running. Battery is fully charged before attempting.
- We re-enabled VATs to do the the PASSLOCK relearn, just in case the VAT disable was giving an issue. Now the odd part...the car won't do a passlock relearn. I start the car, let it die, THEFT light comes on (stays on though, instead of blinking), then goes out after 10 min. Next attempt to start, car dies like expected, but no more THEFT light. I'm under the impression this takes 3 cycles before the THEFT light should stay off...so why after one?
-We did find two of the wires to the 2 bar mapped were switched; originally HPT showed 100 kpa at key on, but once the car was actually turned over, it read extremely high at key on (like 180-200 kpa when it should be atmospheric). We switched and resoldered the wires, and now the MAP seems to act normally. It's like 97-98 kpa at key on, and draws vacuum when I attempt to turn over the motor.
- It's getting fuel, and it seems the injectors are firing normally. Ryan logged the injectors during the attempted starts, and they show pulse widths and duty cycles (not sure what, I'm going to ask Ryan to chime in with whatever data he has from logging).
- I started testing wires to the ICM, the pink "hot in run" has 12v with key on like it should, and the black ground is grounded. Not I'm not sure which CKP wire should be hot in "key on", I assume purple since that is the signal (yellow being the low/ground). That voltage dances all over the place...not sure if thats the problem, or if there shouldn't be a consistant voltage before start up. We did switch the purple and yellow CKP wires just for the sake of trying it (since the polarities between LD9 and Eco are reversed) and it wouldn't even try to start that way, so we switched them back.

I also ran a separate 2g ground from the ICM bracket to the trans/block, just to be sure I have a good solid ground there.

Does anyone know the proper procedure for testing a 2200 ICM with a multimeter. I'm loosely following instructions for a 3400, though the guide I'm looking at just says which color wire should have voltage, not what the wire is (some colors are different). I'm not sure what should have voltage at key on, and what should have it during cranking, out of the ckp reference and coil trigger wires (red w/ black, orange, white, etc).

I'm also going to try and get the front end off jack stands and on the ground, to try what gtpsunfire said about a low fuel level sitting at the back of the tank, though I don't think it's an issue. I have between 1/4 and 1/2 tank of fuel, and it does get enough to to semi start the car.
This whole thing keeps seeming like a passlock problem, but I'm confused since the car doesn't want to seem to accept the procedure. Also, reading through John's original thread in the tuning forum, they switched out the ignition switch too. I don't this should have been an issue with the VATs disabled, but I guess I can get to a yard and swap one in just to rule it out. That being said, if anyone has a 00-02 LD9 ignition switch to get rid of, let me know.

So any more input or suggestions, please let me know. Kind of running out of areas to diagnose. I hate electrical, and I'll be the first to admit I'm not great at troubleshooting it. If anyone wants to come make my car run (cough cough PJ!), I have all the beer you can drink!






Re: Evilution's 2011 Rebuild
Sunday, June 03, 2012 5:54 PM
From a datalogging stand point, once the MAP sensor wiring was corrected, there's nothing that sticks out as crazy. The MAP now reads ~95kPa at key on and drops into vac when it cranks. . We are logging reasonable spark advance when cranking, and all the parameters I usually log are showing up (to me, meaning all the respective sensors are working). There was that P0203 code for injector 3 circuit malfunction, but it's strange that the injector is logging normally. We logged injectors one and three and they seem to be firing at roughly the same pulsewidth. As Matt mentioned we tried a couple things with VATS, but I was understanding that it cut fuel, and we are getting fuel (according to logs while cranking), so does anyone know if VATS affects spark?

The LD9 commands seriously rich afr's while cranking. I went back and looked at some eco logs, and it's usually like 9:1 commanded while cranking, but the LD9 is like 5:1. Too add to that, there is no cranking VE table in the LD9 file. I'm not really convinced that's the issue, but that's a lot of fuel lol.



Re: Evilution's 2011 Rebuild
Sunday, June 03, 2012 6:16 PM
I'm still thinking its a vats issue. Try doing the relearn 3 times and go from there.



Re: Evilution's 2011 Rebuild
Sunday, June 03, 2012 6:35 PM
You should be doing a 1- 20 minute relearn.



FU Tuning



Re: Evilution's 2011 Rebuild
Sunday, June 03, 2012 6:42 PM
Addicted to meth wrote:You should be doing a 1- 20 minute relearn.


How would I go about that? I keyed on, attempted to start the car, let it die, left it key on. Theft light stays illuminated for about 10 min then goes out. I key off, then attempt to start again, it still dies, but no more theft light. Is this the issue that was solved by replacing the ignition switch in Robert's car? I'm cross reference part numbers for ignition switches between 2200, LD9, and Eco, and they all appear to be the same...and I assume a successful passlock relearn would allow any ignition switch to play nicely with the new PCM.

During a normal passlock relearn, doesn't the theft lock blink, not stay constantly lit?






Re: Evilution's 2011 Rebuild
Sunday, June 03, 2012 6:43 PM
gtpsunfire wrote:I'm still thinking its a vats issue. Try doing the relearn 3 times and go from there.


Theft light never comes back on after the 2nd attempt to start the car, which is where I'm confused






Re: Evilution's 2011 Rebuild
Sunday, June 03, 2012 6:57 PM
Start car when it dies leave the key on for 20 minutes. After 20 minutes turn key off. Then attempt to start and see what happens.



FU Tuning



Re: Evilution's 2011 Rebuild
Sunday, June 03, 2012 10:10 PM
Also if your bcm is messed up or messing up your system will read inaccurate I had the same kinda problem when a wire back fed from the fuel pump and fried the bcm there's a lot to go wrong but I am not too good with wiring and all I could do is give u a possibility...

Re: Evilution's 2011 Rebuild
Sunday, June 03, 2012 10:22 PM
Lance Detwiler wrote:Also if your bcm is messed up or messing up your system will read inaccurate I had the same kinda problem when a wire back fed from the fuel pump and fried the bcm there's a lot to go wrong but I am not too good with wiring and all I could do is give u a possibility...


Pretty sure my bcm is fine, never had an issue til the swap, and nothing in the vicinity of the bcm was touched. Plus someone else is having the same issue as me, swapped in the bcm from the same car their PCM and harness came from, and no difference.


I'm gonna do some more probing with the multimeter tomorrow, and try passlock again, see if it cooperates this time. Starting to think my car has a mind of it's own...thinking I should rename it Christine lol






Re: Evilution's 2011 Rebuild
Monday, June 04, 2012 7:01 AM
When my sedan had the vats problem, it haf to do the relearn 3 times in a row before it would start, 3 10 min relearns it would fire right up


z28guy(KGM BEOTCH)
Re: Evilution's 2011 Rebuild
Monday, June 04, 2012 8:30 AM
but the issue we are having is after the first 10 minutes, the theft light goes out and stays off.

So you try and start the car, the theft light comes on, wait 10 minutes, light goes off, try and start the car again, tries to start but doesnt and the theft light doesnt come back on. the theft light stays off.

its just on this setup the pcm isnt likeing the code from the ignition switch.

esentially there are 2 codes, the first from the lil wires by the key, for fuel? and the 2nd from the ignition switch for the coils?

with my 2003 setup everything is fine, fires right up after 1 20 minute relearn, switch to the 2.4 computer/wiring and nothing.
so i changed the wiring, the pcm, the icm and map. Everyother sensor is that same. i have checked all the wiring, its all good. I have changed out pcms, and icms. hptuners scann shows map working fine, right @ 80 kps and fluctuates between 77-80 while cranking(running the 2.5 bar). the tps works fine, i see changed fuel trims when i give it gas, while cranking. i have even changed out the bcm, with the one from the computer and harness. and nothing. all that is logically left is the ignition switch.

everything leads back to the pcm, and i can read every parameter but it wont send fuel or spark. every ground is good, every + is good
So the only thing left is the ignition switch, which turns on the coils. So short of doing the full gm relearn at the dealer plugged in to dealerworld, this is it i guess.


it shows that there is only one ignition switch for all 94-2005 cavaliers and sunfires, acdelco d1480c, or gm part number 26034119 cost is 48.81
so its hard to believe that it could be the switch. but anything is possible i guess.

i also have the car flat with on the ground now, 3/4 tank, key on i have 55ish psi on the rail, ignition voltage at the icm and ground. no blown fuses, and all new relays.


argh lol

ive also heard the oil pressure could keep it from starting, if the engine doesnt see oil pressure it will switch off the injectors.
Re: Evilution's 2011 Rebuild
Monday, June 04, 2012 12:26 PM
What I find really odd is that you and I are having identical issues, right down to every last detail lol






Re: Evilution's 2011 Rebuild
Monday, June 04, 2012 12:52 PM
it is very odd, hence why i was so anxious to see if yours started on ecotecforums.lol
i told the wife, what are the odds someone is having the exact same issue. we will get it figured out, just gotta see if i can find an ignition switch in town.
Re: Evilution's 2011 Rebuild
Monday, June 04, 2012 3:13 PM
Yeah let me know how the ignition switch goes. I can't see how they make a difference, since it is the same part number from 95-05, and the original swap thread in the tuning forum isn't specific to why it needed to be switched, but like you said before, stranger things happen when it comes to electronics. I'm tempted to pull the switch from my beater ('98 2200) just for the sake of trying.
I'm also going to dump in a few gallons of fresh gas, I'm at about a 1/4 tank of gas thats been sitting since December, with the front end up on stands since then. I don't think it's the issue, but I'd like to rule out as many things as possible to help narrow it down.
Ryan is stopping by in a few minutes to re-enable VATs and I'm going to attempt the relearn again...I realized I may have been doing it incorrectly. After the theft light would turn off, I'd keep it on a "key on" position and attempt to crank. After re-reading the procedure, it seems after the theft light goes off, I should turn the ignition completely off, wait 5 seconds, then attempt to crank it. It's a far reach, but it's worth a shot.
I'm also curious of a stock LD9 PCM would handle starting my setup...the cams worry me, but the stock LD9 cranking fueling is apparently rich (I think Ryan said 5:1 compared to the Eco's 9:1)...my buddy can stop by later this week with his vert, where we know all electronics work properly, so we could swap in his PCM and see if it works.

We get proper reading from the MAP and TPS, I'm still unclear how to test the CKP, and I also want to check my connection on the oil pressure sensor wire (since I cut and extended it).






Re: Evilution's 2011 Rebuild
Monday, June 04, 2012 5:47 PM
So, we have some progress tonight...and some odd behavior re-enabling VATs.

Ryan turned on VATs, reflashed the PCM, but for some reason, no theft light. I crank it, let it die...no theft light. It's almost like the VATs are disabled, even when they aren't. Good news is, it doesn't prohibit the car from starting. So I don't think it's a VAT issue. We believe it's either a faulty injector (which I hope not since these injectors have less than 500 miles on them, and I installed them brand new last year), or a problem in the injector wiring.
If I crank the car to where it starts, and give it gas to hold at about 2300-2400 rpm, the car will run. As long as I give it steady gas, it runs...but it sounds bad, almost like it's one injector down...and we are getting a P0203 code, which is for injector #3. As soon as I let off the gas, it sputters and dies. We did get the code before, but ignored it since we logged injectors 1 & 3 and they showed consistent duty cycle and pulse width.

So tomorrow I'm going to switch injector #3 with another one, and see if the code moves to another cylinder, or stays at #3...that should at least give me an idea if the injector is bad, or if it's electrical. That being said, does anyone know the proper way to test an injector connector with a multimeter? I'm thinking the signal side should have 12v at key on....but I'm not really sure.

All in all, I think we at least ruled out VATs as the culprit, and pointed it to the injectors. Not quite the news I'd like to have, but it's at least progress and a step in the right direction to troubleshooting this.






Re: Evilution's 2011 Rebuild
Monday, June 04, 2012 6:28 PM
EVILution (KGM Godfather) wrote:That being said, does anyone know the proper way to test an injector connector with a multimeter? I'm thinking the signal side should have 12v at key on....but I'm not really sure.


I have the perfect little set of tools for that. I just have to remember where i put them...


Error: Sig not found.

Re: Evilution's 2011 Rebuild
Monday, June 04, 2012 6:39 PM
Could you maybe have 1-4 injectors wired in reverse? 4-1? Just a thought. I wasnt sure on mine when I plugged them in but I guessed right


Re: Evilution's 2011 Rebuild
Monday, June 04, 2012 6:46 PM
BuiltNBoosted wrote:Could you maybe have 1-4 injectors wired in reverse? 4-1? Just a thought. I wasnt sure on mine when I plugged them in but I guessed right


99% sure, but I'm going to double check tomorrow when I pull things apart. Just to double check, in case I'm thinking of things reversed....#1 would be far timing side, down to #4 on driver side...just like cylinders?

And to double check...the EV1 style injectors (I'm running Seimens-Deka pencil style) don't have a designated wire for each polarity right? It's just a loop. I know on the stock harness, the gray wire to each injector is listed as the feed and each color wire (black, lt green, pink, lt blue) are the output. I wasn't sure of this when I had these injectors wired to my Eco harness, I did make sure I had the same side wire on each clip going to a color wire, and the same side of each to a gray wire...no problems on the eco harness. I think I read on some other forums that it shouldn't matter which side of the injector clip you use as in/out, as long as it's the same on each injector (which I'm also going to double check when I tear apart).







Re: Evilution's 2011 Rebuild
Monday, June 04, 2012 7:04 PM
yes your 1-4 is correct. Just something I thought of to check since I thought mine might have been backwards. Hope you get it figured out soon


Re: Evilution's 2011 Rebuild
Monday, June 04, 2012 7:21 PM
Ok thanks for the confirmation Vince. When I have things apart tomorrow I'll double check to make sure I didn't mix up a signal wire when wiring the injectors.






Re: Evilution's 2011 Rebuild
Monday, June 04, 2012 7:29 PM
Well glad you got it running.

As for switching ignition switches. I can not explain why we have had to do it, but on multiple cars we have had to. Roberts car we did when we did the ECU and harness swap. Also on multiple Ecotec swaps we did. Can not explain it.

My next comment is not saying you do not have a injector problem, But when we first did Roberts harness swap his car would not idle unless you held the RPM's up above 2k. Even then it was rough. This is when we found the CKP is reversed. Since you have a injector code I would also follow that route. In the past we have ran many J's on 3 injectors while diagnosing things and they idled fine, but sounded camed.

I have also never seen a 5:1 command AFR on my car.



FU Tuning



Re: Evilution's 2011 Rebuild
Monday, June 04, 2012 10:20 PM
Addicted to meth wrote:Well glad you got it running.

As for switching ignition switches. I can not explain why we have had to do it, but on multiple cars we have had to. Roberts car we did when we did the ECU and harness swap. Also on multiple Ecotec swaps we did. Can not explain it.

My next comment is not saying you do not have a injector problem, But when we first did Roberts harness swap his car would not idle unless you held the RPM's up above 2k. Even then it was rough. This is when we found the CKP is reversed. Since you have a injector code I would also follow that route. In the past we have ran many J's on 3 injectors while diagnosing things and they idled fine, but sounded camed.

I have also never seen a 5:1 command AFR on my car.


Thanks for the input.
So on Robert's car, what were the conditions before changing the ignition switch? Would it not start at all, and start after changing it? Or were you able to get it to runny crappy above 2k before the ignition switch swap?

We thought about the ckp wiring as well...I did switch it before installing the harness as per your original thread, and last time we were troubleshooting, we switched the wires back just to see what difference it made, and it didn't even want to crank over. So I'm fairly certain the ckp is wired right...though not to say there isn't a short or something in the wiring somewhere.
Do you happen to know how I could test the ckp wiring...i.e. Would one of the ckp wires have a certain voltage or resistance during key on or cranking? I would assume the high reference should have 12v during cranking? Or possibly a 0-12v fluctuation like injectors?

Ryan and I both agreed that even with only 3 injectors functioning, it should still idle on it's own, but on the other hand I would think high duration cams (I'm running comp stage 3) could make that a much more difficult task.

Either way, I'll take another closer look at my ckp wiring when I look at the injectors, and maybe I'll pull the ignition switch out of my beater 2200 and see what happens. Shouldn't matter if it's out of a '98 right? Since the p/n is the same from 95-05?

Thanks again everyone! I feel like this is close to resolved (fingers crossed!)






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