On a MK IV VW the two bars are a little too much. The sports suspension has a 10mm bar in the rear(not sure how much it helps) & with a 28mm sway bar & a little tuning you can get pretty close to neutral. Depending on your class you may want to look into welding/bolting in a small bar( shaped like -|-------|- ) . You also can use a lower rear tie bar. I don't remember what the rear axel looks like but a rear axel brace might help if you aren't in STS (i.e.
http://www.bildon.com/catalog/DetailsList.cfm?ID=1CV.501.513.514&Nav=10 ). If GM makes shims specifically for your car you can probably get away with it still. Not sure what else to suggest but good luck.
hey that rear brace is a good idea
good find because we can use those. but are they sts legal? <br>
see ya!
we both run in street prepared, autoxfool is on dsp and I am in fsp. Pretty much the only changes you can make to the rear suspension are bushing material, springs/struts, and adding a swaybar. From how I understand the rules you can't even use a tiebar between endlinks. This is from the 2004 rulebook, there have been no other changes that would help the situation at all.
15.7 ANTI-ROLL (SWAY) BARS
Vehicles may only exceed the allowances of 13.7 as specified herein.
Substitution, addition, or removal of any anti-roll bar(s) is permitted.
Bushing material, method of attachment, and locating points are unrestricted. This does not authorize the removal of a welded-on part of a subframe to accommodate the installation, or the cutting of holes to route the bar or links Non-standard lateral members which connect between the brackets for the bar are not permitted.
The bar may serve no other purpose which is not explicitly permitted elsewhere herein. Components such as anti-roll bars and strut housings which serve dual purposes by also functioning as suspension locators may not be modified or substituted in ways which change the suspension geometry and may not be installed in positions (e.g. upside down) other than that of the original configuration.
15.8 SUSPENSION
Vehicles may only exceed the allowances of 13.8 as specified herein.
A. Ride height may only be altered by suspension adjustments, the use of spacing blocks, leaf spring shackles, torsion bar levers, or change or modification of the springs or coil spring perches. This does not allow the use of spacers which alter suspension geometry, such as those between the hub carrier and lower suspension arm. Springs must be of the same type as original (coil, leaf, torsion bar, etc.) and except as noted herein, must use the original attachment points. This permits multiple springs, as long as they us the original mount locations. Coil spring perches originally attached to the struts or shock absorber bodies may be changed or altered, and their position may be adjustable. Spacers are allowed above or below the spring.
B. Suspension bump stops may be altered or removed.
C. Suspension bushings may be replaced with bushings of any materials (except metal) as long as they fit in the original location. Offset bushings may be used. In a replacement bushing the amount of metal relative to the amount of non-metallic material may not be increased. This does not authorize the change in type of bushing (for example ball and socket replacing a cylindrical bushing), or use of a bushing with an angled hole whose direction differs from that of the original bushing. If the Stock bushing accommodated multi-axis motion via change in bushing type, for example to a spherical bearing or similar component involving internal moving parts. Pins or keys may be used to prevent the rotation of alternate bushings, but may serve no other purpose than that of retaining the bushing in the desired position. Differential mount bushings are not considered to be suspension bushings and are not covered by this allowance.
D. The following allowances apply to strut-type suspensions: Adjustable camber plates may be installed on top of the strut, and the original upper mounting holes may be slotted. The drilling of the holes in order to perform the installation is permitted, but the center clearance hole may not be modified. Any type pf bearing or bushing may be used in the adjustable camber plate attachment to the strut. The installation may incorporate an alternate upper spring perch/seat and/or mounting block (bearing mount). Any ride height change resulting from installation of camber plates is allowed. Caster changes resulting from the use of camber plates are permitted.
E. Camber bolts may be installed, providing these parts use the original, unmodified mounting points. Caster changes resulting from the use of camber bolts is permitted.
F. Live axle suspension allowances:
1. Addition or replacement of suspension stabilizers (linkage connecting the axle housing or De Dion to the chassis, which controls lateral suspension location) is permitted.
2. Traction bars or torque arms may be added or replaced on live axle suspensions.
3. A panhard rod may be added or replaced.
4. The upper arm(s) may be removed, replaced, or modified, and the upper pickup points on the rear axle housing may be relocated.
5. The lower arms may not be altered except as permitted under 14.8.C, or relocated.
Methods of attachment and attachment points are unrestricted, but may serve no other purpose (e.g. chassis stiffening). This does not authorize the removal of a welded-on part of the subframe to accommodate the installation.
G. Changes in alignment parameters which result directly from the use of allowed components are permitted. For example, the dimensional changes resulting from the use of a cylindrical offset bushing which meets the restrictions of 15.8.C are allowed, including those resulting from a change in the pivoting action to (a) about the mounting bolt, (b) about the bushing itself. Eccentric bolts are permitted for suspension adjustment only if they are as specified by the factory, per the last paragraph of 13.8.
Now here is the last paragraph of 13.8 :
If authorized by the manufacturer, the use of shims, special bolts, removal of material to enlarge mounting holes, and similar methods are allowed and the resulting alignment settings are permitted even if the outside the normal specification or range of specifications recommended by the manufacturer. If enlarging mounting holes is specifically authorized but no material removal limits are specified, material removal is restricted to the amount necessary to achieve the maximum factory alignment specification.
I thought tie bars were covered under this rule:
"Addition or replacement of suspension stabilizers (linkage connecting axle housing or De Dion to the chassis, which controls lateral suspension location) is permitted. Traction bars or torque arms may be added or replaced. A panhard rod may be added or replaced. Methods of attachment and attachment points are unrestricted. This does not authorize removal of a welded-on part of a subframe to accommodate installation."
Subframe braces are, as long as they do not have a cross design. <br>
Thats for SP classes. <br>
Sean went from dsp to sts
anyway so the brace would be legal
if so i will make my own.
and is our rear axle a live axle in their eyes because it is in my eyes
<br>
see ya!
the acura integra's also suffer from this problem.....so were not the only ones. If anything was going to be done about it I think it would have taken effect by now. The fact is that cars with a solid trailing arm suspension, are hosed out of the more competitive classes.
You also very light, that 1/8 inch or so makes a huge difference, even tho the difference is hardly noticable to the naked eye.
From what I've heard. I'm guessing my aftermarket stereo("weight reduction"), component speakers("redistrobution of weight') and the 2 amps in my trunk("weight balance") also put me out of stock class.
The truth is the higher you climb the more whiners you'll meet. That's why if I get my mini I'm buying it with the upgraded stereo and making the subwoofer and amp completely removable.
That's where the competition is. At the top. So you gotta stay legal.
"bullshit will get you up there, but it won't keep you there"
AutoXFool have you sent in the SEB? let me see what you send and I'll send one too. (never done it before) <br>
-Chris
We can't run swaybar tie bars because our rear axle is NOT considered a live axle. A live axle is in fact a driven axle and solid, meaning that there is no suspension built into the axle that the entire axle itself is suspended from the car. RWD camaro's and mustangs are examples of cars with a live rear axle. If they did consider our rear axle to be live I would already have a tiebar on mine but it's not so I don't. Sucks don't it!
IamRascal wrote:
The truth is the higher you climb the more whiners you'll meet. That's why if I get my mini I'm buying it with the upgraded stereo and making the subwoofer and amp completely removable.
That's where the competition is. At the top. So you gotta stay legal.
"bullshit will get you up there, but it won't keep you there"
AutoXFool have you sent in the SEB? let me see what you send and I'll send one too. (never done it before)
You are wise grasshopper.
Haven't composed the letter yet. Getting comments from another board first.
Just FYI. Ran a rear tie bar before. Noticed nothing nor improved my times at all. Ran subframe brace, seems it does nothing as I was faster without it per my index finishes. It's best to keep things as simple as possible. No use adding things if you don't need to.
And more good news: Headers also appear to be illegal for us.
Per Bill Luton: "Regarding the STS class rules, as they are written, the stock catalytic converter assembly may not be modified or replaced, and on the Cavalier and Sunfire vehicles, that assembly includes the down pipe, which is welded to the catalytic converter and comprises one assembly. According to the letter of the rules, that assembly can not be replaced which is in effect an outright ban on the use of a header on those vehicles due only to the way the vehicle was assembled. STS also prohibits removal or modification of emissions control items, which includes that complete catalytic converter assembly, which can not legally be cut, including the cutting of the pipe in front of or behind the catalytic converter."
Yippie. Just keeps getting better.
Strike 2 for GM and the J's to become a more competitive autocross car. <br>
Lightweight honDuhs can kiss my fat Crapalier a$$
A new autoX ride for '08.....
jonnyonwheels wrote:That's why I never bothered with any other class' besides Street Prepared, Prepared, and hopefully Modified when I win the lottery
Well you could still use the high-flo cat and header, just would have to go to STX. Have fun with MCS, WRX, and ITRs. HAHAH not.
The foci are in a similiar situation regarding the header. I suppose just us 2 groups could come up with a nice little letter for the SEB about allowing cats in STS.
<br>
Lightweight honDuhs can kiss my fat Crapalier a$$
A new autoX ride for '08.....
we must get this letter together ASAP
so Sean get to writing so i can sign it
can the letter have two subjects? or do we need two letters? <br>
see ya!
My cat had a flange on both sides. You need to have some money if your running STX. How is it possible to keep up with a WRX... <br>
I must've overlooked it since I only looked for alignment change rules in the Suspension section. Why they put this in the beginning section of the Street Prepared rules separate from the Suspension section is beyond me!! It still doesn't help you because you want race-type settings beyond the factory specs but at least you can use them to correct for misaligned/bent parts.
Page 109 of the SCCA 2004 National Solo rulebook
15.1 AUTHORIZED MODIFICATIONS
F. On all forms of suspension, camber/caster adjustment within factory specifications may be achieved by the use of shims or eccentric bushings. The intent of this allowance is to permit cars to be restored to within factory-allowed specification ranges, not to provode an additional method beyond those permitted in Section 15.8 to obtain aligment settings beyond the factory specifications.
Refer to appendix F for the clarification of these rules.
jonnyonwheels wrote:I must've overlooked it since I only looked for alignment change rules in the Suspension section. Why they put this in the beginning section of the Street Prepared rules separate from the Suspension section is beyond me!! It still doesn't help you because you want race-type settings beyond the factory specs but at least you can use them to correct for misaligned/bent parts.
Page 109 of the SCCA 2004 National Solo rulebook
15.1 AUTHORIZED MODIFICATIONS
F. On all forms of suspension, camber/caster adjustment within factory specifications may be achieved by the use of shims or eccentric bushings. The intent of this allowance is to permit cars to be restored to within factory-allowed specification ranges, not to provode an additional method beyond those permitted in Section 15.8 to obtain aligment settings beyond the factory specifications.
Refer to appendix F for the clarification of these rules.
I think my rear settings right at the edge of factory-allowances. I did start off in DSP this year, so I was knowingly legal. Still a stupid rule considering everyone else who doesnt have to use shims can put their rear alignment to whatever the hell they want.
The Cat issue was just decided on late last year/early this year and it was a no-go hi-flo in STS, so that doesn't look promising at all. Especially given the very small amount of people it would help out (J's and Foci....which you don't see any real amount of in STS.)
Basically, I need to find a ride for next year. I'll probably just run the Crapalier locally if nothing else comes up. It's the Pro's and others that I'm concerned about. <br>
Lightweight honDuhs can kiss my fat Crapalier a$$
A new autoX ride for '08.....
hey i was thinking of running stx because i want a phantom grip anyway
so with a header and a lsd and maybe bump sticks but we will see. but i want a LSD <br>
see ya!
From reading the setion I just posted it sounds like any alignment you use regardless of whether its from shims bolts or bushings, has to be within factory specs?! I know of a few people in running street prepared that ran a race alignment AND competed in the Nationals. I'mgonna have to whip out the rulebook and do some questioning. It sure seems like one of those "If everyone else is doing It I will too" so it gets overlooked!!! Personallly I'd like to see some other Factory service books or bulletins that authorize the use of shims/eccentric bolts/bushings to change the alignment. I think it's just overlooked because of the complexity of checking alignments.
i am willing to bet there is a service bulletin on the rear shims
i bet if you go to your local dealer and wave a 20 in front of the service advisor's face they will make you a copy
<br>
see ya!
Well the problem isn't being able to use the shims because it's been established that we can but now the problem is that we can't adjust the alignment outside of the factory specs. Kinda sucks!!
Rear alignment specs:
Camber: -0.25 +/- .75 deg Total neg camber allowed: 1 deg
Toe (combined) 0.2 +/- .30 deg. Total toe out: 0.5 deg
Try those out Sean and see if they help. At least both rear wheels will have the same to and camber. <br>
Zach wrote:Rear alignment specs:
Camber: -0.25 +/- .75 deg Total neg camber allowed: 1 deg
Toe (combined) 0.2 +/- .30 deg. Total toe out: 0.5 deg
Try those out Sean and see if they help. At least both rear wheels will have the same to and camber.
Zach, the rule that jonny pointed out is for SP, not for STS. Shims are still illegal for my purposes.
<br>
Lightweight honDuhs can kiss my fat Crapalier a$$
A new autoX ride for '08.....
Wow this is some interesting stuff, I have tried to read it all but there is so much now. Anyways plans for my car are (or what I would like) Camber plates, new race tires,maybe a brake up grade,rear strut bar,some intake work, pro line springs. maybe some more but thats all I can think of right now. I am thinking of doing solo1 next season.
Also would it make a difference if you called the rear suspension semi independent? I actually just saw some shyms for the rear today in school so I may try playing with that aswell. <br>
Ryan Butchart 1 man, 1 car, 1 lap at a time.
soloz: Just be careful what the rules allow for who you're racing with. SOme classes allow shims and some don't. And some classes allow alignmnet changes only within factory specs and some allow race setup. That's what we're running into in the different SCCA classifications. And it seems unfair because cars that have different types of suspension as we do have adjustments that allow a more race type alignment without the use of such aftermarket shims, and eccentric bolts/bushings.
You guys seem to know your stuff, so sorry to hijack your thread, but maybe you could answer me a question. I was thinkin of giving autox a try next year, but have no idea what class I would be in. Here's what I have: Eibach sportlines, Koni shocks, BFG G-Force KD tires, phantom grip lsd, engine has lots of work, forged bottom end, 9:1 compression, p+p head, HO intake, turbo, custom exhaust including cat. I think that's everything that would make a difference. My question is, what class would I be in, and what cars would be my main competition? Thanks for any info, and again, sorry to get off your topic.
<br>
2000 Z
Street Mod
Competition: Everything the cat dragged in
<br>
-Chris
