Quote:

MadJack, how do you calculate total lift from cam lift and rocker ratio?

I'm not Madjack, but here's the math.

Lobe lift * rocker ratio = valve lift. Easy, yes?

To find changes in valve lift due to rocker changes when given valve lift figures:

Old valve lift * (new rocker ratio / old rocker ratio) = new valve lift.

That math, btw, also works backward for spring pressure:

Spring pressure / rocker ratio = pressure at lifter.

Have fun!
-->Slow

slowolej wrote:

Quote:

MadJack, how do you calculate total lift from cam lift and rocker ratio?

I'm not Madjack, but here's the math.

Lobe lift * rocker ratio = valve lift. Easy, yes?

To find changes in valve lift due to rocker changes when given valve lift figures:

Old valve lift * (new rocker ratio / old rocker ratio) = new valve lift.

That math, btw, also works backward for spring pressure:

Spring pressure / rocker ratio = pressure at lifter.

Have fun!
-->Slow

Haha, thanks slow. I figured it would be more difficult than that...

Phlatcav, everything's been posted, and nobody has changed their opinion on anything that I've seen.
Here's a complete brake-down from my point of view:

*note: all values are approximated (but close), as spring rates may slightly vary between individual springs of the same part series.

stock springs (as found on ny-jbodies):
2200
Valve Overall Length - Exhaust 5.00 in
Valve Overall Length - Inlet 5.28 in
Valve Springs Free Length 1.91 in
Valve Springs Load - Closed 81.2-72.8 lb @ 1.600 in
Valve Springs Load - Open 215-201 lb @ 1.175 in
Now, this means the average stock spring rate is approximately 265 lbs/in
Max lift is not known, and will probably never be measured (you can always have it tested if you want...).

Now, the Crane 37830 springs that I would highly suggest giving a shot:
Seat Pressure @ Installed Height 88 lbs. @ 1.600 (2200 stock height)
Open Pressure and Height 194 lbs. @ 1.090 (after .510 lift)
Coil Bind 1.000
Average Spring Rate 208 lbs./in.
Free length = ~2.020"

Notice, these are slightly softer than stock as you can see, but the dimesions look really good, and these allow all the lift you could want. As long as you're not planning on revving significantly higher, or running large amounts of boost, these should be perfect. They allow stock vavlves, pushrods, and most probably stock retainers, locks, and lifters.
After further research, Crane lists this item twice...once as a 'universal' type spring, and once as a Ford 16V/24V performance spring. The 'Ford' spring gives slightly different specs, about 280 lbs/in, but with a similar seat pressure, making it good for higher RPM, higher boost use as well (although the M98 oil pump would be suggested as good measure, but you should already have it with any engine build).


I was going to go through all of MadJack's suggestions, but I really don't think you would want to go with them, as you would HAVE to use older 2.2L valves, have the valve spring seat cut down, and run longer pushrods in order to use them on a 2200. Or, you could try to cut 0.140" or so from the valve seats, and a similar amount from the valve guides. You'd almost definately need different retainers regardless. They're possibilities for the older 2.2L, but not well-suited for the 2200 when the above springs are availible, and cost is an issue (not to mention that you probably don't want to buy another set of valves).

As for my Mantapart springs, I bought them second hand, so no total guarentees (but Josh C is still around, so I can always hunt him down . They look basically stock, and I don't know any specs on them, which they don't list on the website, and I haven't had them tested or anything. They are on an older 2.2L anyway. If you felt like calling Mantapart, I'm sure they would have springs to offer you, but you better be willing to pay $$$, and of course, no guarentees...


As for $260 being a lot of money, get real. First, that's enough springs for two engines, so find someone else to split it with (volumeking may be interested). Second, I doubt there's an exterior mod on your car that cost less




fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.

Here is the real deal, When I started my built I had no thoughts of using a cam or even building a bottom end. I was gonna get soem head work done and new rockers with a little n20. The more I look at the project the more I ask myself why I am doing it, I never and I mean never go to the track, I dont street race...see my point? I got to into somthing I would of more than likely never finished in the first place. All in all I think I just wanted to see what i could do and got carried away, Id say im gonna put the head on my current motor that have low miles and call it a day..Yes I guess you could say I gave up but in the long run performance was not on the top of my list I guess.

Phlatcav wrote:Here is the real deal, When I started my built I had no thoughts of using a cam or even building a bottom end. I was gonna get soem head work done and new rockers with a little n20. The more I look at the project the more I ask myself why I am doing it, I never and I mean never go to the track, I dont street race...see my point? I got to into somthing I would of more than likely never finished in the first place. All in all I think I just wanted to see what i could do and got carried away, Id say im gonna put the head on my current motor that have low miles and call it a day..Yes I guess you could say I gave up but in the long run performance was not on the top of my list I guess.

Well, it's good you found your priorities (even if they are WAY misplaced ). If you want to sell your cam, give volumeking a call. He recently posted in another thread that he's looking for a cam for his 2200.



fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.

Well I dont see them as being way misplaced ( I know yu were joking ) But I started going way over what i set out to do. Fact is I like performance and am not lost when it comes to what needs to be done inorder to build a motor, But im trying to build something beyond what i wanted so now Im gonna take a step back and do what I realy wanted. I thank all of you for your help guys, You have been a huge help to me! One day I will build a sweet 2200 but It wont be for my sedan

Sorry to hear your giving up on the build.

Like I said before, building an engine like ours (2.2 or 2200) is a painstaking chore , since there is so few custom made parts. It's frustrating to me too, but that's what I like about doing this engine, it's the challenge. As for parts, you either end up paying out the @$$, or do allot of trial and error to find what works.

That cam you chose is a little on the radical side for our little motors, though if you could have gotten the valve spring situation out, I think you would have had a helluva motor. A cam with a little less lift and / or 1.5:1 rockers would have been a little better suited. Some thing like the grind I got with a set of 1.5 rockers would have done you great. (Specs:208* @ .050, .292" lobe lift[X 1.5 = .438"], 114* Lobe sep.)

On another note, Notec, do you think you could get a set of those 2200 springs tested? The big thing I'm looking for is the coil bind hight, so I can figure out how much lift they can handle. 265 lbs/in isn't anything great as far as rate goes, but these motors don't have the valve train heft quite as high as a SBC.

MadJack wrote:On another note, Notec, do you think you could get a set of those 2200 springs tested? The big thing I'm looking for is the coil bind hight, so I can figure out how much lift they can handle. 265 lbs/in isn't anything great as far as rate goes, but these motors don't have the valve train heft quite as high as a SBC.

I don't have any 2200 springs because I don't have a 2200 ...I'm 97- like you



fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.

Okay, never mind!

Anyone else out there that can get that done?

I can test springs if someone who's upgraded a stock 2200 valve train wants to loan one out.

-->Slow

i got stock 2200 springs, PM me

I will have the stock springs tested by next week.

Also how much would I benefit from a cam with a bit more duration but less lift than my last specs?

For approximately every two degrees of duration @ .050" you will raise the powerband up by about 100 rpm. This will also vary by lobe separation, CR, intake, exhaust, etc... Typically the greater amount of lift would build more torque, but I doubt you would lose torque, only move the torque peak up in rpm while still gaining more power further up in the rpms.

Unfortunitely, as far as Crane and Comp are concerned, to maintain approximately the same amount of lift you would need to drop your rocker ratio down to 1.5.

With your mods, I would recommend you go with the same grind I've got. But with the auto trans, be ready to swap your TC. On mine, I'm running the 1.6 Crane rockers, a 2560 stall TC and 3.43 effective gearing and PG, and I still need to move up to the 2795(2800) TC for a harder launch.

My power comes on really strong at about 34-3600 rpm, but I've still got some top end tuning to do. At about 4800 to 5000 rpm the motor is getting soft though. This is due to the stock spring not being able to handle .467" lift at those rpm. Most people don't relize they are getting valve float before they hear it, it first shows up as a loss of power. When you hear it is when its really bad and possibly doing damage.

The stock springs can handle the rpm as long as you don't go too far with the lift, so I think in your case you should be fine. For added protection though, I would put in a set of new stock springs, if you've got over 80K or ever over-heated the motor.

What Grind do you recoment madjack?

Crane's HR-208/292-14, according to Crane that should give you a power band about 2100-5600 rpm. This should be about 500-600 rpm higher. Look at the 2795 rpm stall with this cam. A gear change may be needed.

Comp Has a grind (#3305) thats about 300-400 rpm higher (1200-5200). It's an Extreme Energy Hydraulic Roller grind. 204* @ .050", .428" lift. .004" less lift wouldn't be noticeable, but the increased duration would up your rpm. A 2560 rpm stall converter would probably work here, maybe the 2795 rpm stall. A gear change here might help, but not necessarily needed.

Do you have the TH125C/3T40 or the 4T40E?

4t40e

hrrrm, looks like i may get another cam

Get a core and get it reground, cheapest route.

Do you know what gearing you have?

If you don't already know, how about your trans RPO? If you dont already have the RPOs you can find the on the bottom of the spare tire cover in your trunk, if you syill have the original cover. Just verify it by your VIN. I believe Lenko did a post about the tranny RPOs and their gearing.

i dont have the original

if you have a tach, how many rpm are you turning at 60 mph in 3rd gear? this is so I can figure out roughly what gear ratio you have.

hrrrm, ill have to get that info in the morning

I got...

3,000 rpm at 60mph in 3rd

With the tire size in your profile and the rpms your turning you've got about a 3.75:1 gear ratio. According to the listing Lenko posted elsewhere, there were four different RPO's:

FP2 3.58:1
FX1 3.94:1
FX2 3.91:1
FY1 3.63:1

According to these ratios, you should be good as far as gearing is concerned. I know the ratio I calculated isn't listed, but between Lenko saying there is probably other ratios, Tach error, tire wear and and inflation variables, you are well within the range you need to be.

Depending on what cam you go with, will affect what TC you would be best with. Overall though, I think you would be fine with a 2795rpm(facotory code FA?B) or 2800rpm(aftermarket) stall speed. If you do get a Factory replacement, get it custom rebult by a reputable High Performance TC company.

You already have an Autotrans Interceptor, so a LSD is about the last thing needed in the tranny to put the power to the ground and get you rolling Quickly!

so you think Crane's HR-208/292-14 would work with 1:6 rockers and stock valve springs?

Sorry, I forgot to mention that you should use 1.5 rockers. That would give you 0.438" lift, an insignificant amout of additional lift as your valve springs are concerned. The NY J-Bodies web site's 2200 spec page doesn't list the coil bind hight or how much clearance the locks/retainers have over the valve guides, so I couldn't tell you wether or not you would have the clearance for this cam with the 1.6 rockers(0.467" lift).

Well, the older retainers wont work with the 7mm locks.

Looks like I'm going to have to find another route to get the springs on. Let me check some other sources.