awd ecotec cav? - Third Generation Forum

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awd ecotec cav?
Monday, April 01, 2013 3:18 PM
ok guys, ive been thinking about this for a while, and it has to be doable, right? pretty much saturn vue drivetrain swap, with custom rear subframe, cut driveshaft tunnel, custom driveshaft, and probably custom rear suspension all together.

that much we know, right?

now, i know ppl have been wondering about this for a while on here, and i might take the plunge and try it out with my 01 z that i swapped an eco into, but first i need info. im going to look as much as i can, but im not sure where to find this info.

pretty much all i want to know is how much power can the stock transfer case and rear diff hold on the vue? cant be too much cuz they are kinda tiny, but its also a heavier vehicle. i dont want to even think about all the time/money/effort that will be needed for this if i will have to stay with a stock engine(which im sure is what ill end up finding out).

lmk thoughts guys/gals, and if any of you know of where i can find any of this info, please let me know.

thanks!

Dave

Re: awd ecotec cav?
Monday, April 01, 2013 4:22 PM
pretty sure that transaxle is a CVT


no thanks.





Re: awd ecotec cav?
Monday, April 01, 2013 4:29 PM
they have a 5 speed in the vue also. and reg 4 spd autos instead of cvt, but i want to get away from an auto, lol
Re: awd ecotec cav?
Monday, April 01, 2013 6:22 PM
Dave De Stefano wrote:

they have a 5 speed in the vue also. and reg 4 spd autos instead of cvt, but i want to get away from an auto, lol


the 5 speed in the vue is not AWD. it's an F23 with a different final drive.

the only AWD is the automatic/ CVT transmission. I've looked into this already.


and I'm doin good man lol





Re: awd ecotec cav?
Monday, April 01, 2013 6:26 PM
DaFlyinSkwirl (Pj) wrote:

Dave De Stefano wrote:

they have a 5 speed in the vue also. and reg 4 spd autos instead of cvt, but i want to get away from an auto, lol


the 5 speed in the vue is not AWD. it's an F23 with a different final drive.

the only AWD is the automatic/ CVT transmission. I've looked into this already.


and I'm doin good man lol







Now I am sad........



.........oh wait, I figured this wouldn't work, haha. Was kinda lookin forward to the project though
Re: awd ecotec cav?
Monday, April 01, 2013 7:53 PM
the only possible thing I could think of to seriously make a Jbody AWD would be to steal the evo 8 transmission.

the evo's engine is mounted the same ours is and spins the same direction.

the transmission is similar size. you'd need an adapter to bolt it to the ecotec and probably a custom clutch, or a custom input shaft on the transmission.

a VCU unit/ transfer case
(NOT the electronic center differential... because we don't have the electronics the ECD is looking for)

custom driveshafts all around

the rear suspension could be made relatively easily... I'd personally copy the front suspension in the rear... and adapt to the rear struts.

that way you use the Jbody splined hubs in the front and the rear.
same bolt pattern all the way around


the only other issues is steering rack clearance. the rack would have to go down to clear the VCU, which is going to make the tie-rod angle on lowered cars even worse.

at this point, I'd almost rather a RWD car which, is already mechanically possible with existing parts instead of "custom everything" for the evo AWD conversion.

plus, RWD cars are more fun anyway.





Re: awd ecotec cav?
Monday, April 01, 2013 9:44 PM
Well, I'm not well versed in the Mitsubishi trans, but I thought the stick in the evos with the 4g63 was kinda weak. A rwd cavi would be cool too...and much easier....
Re: awd ecotec cav?
Tuesday, April 02, 2013 8:53 AM
An F40 transmission and rear differential from a Saab 9-3 Aero 2.0 turbo xwd should work.

PJ's suggestion of using J-body front end parts is a good idea for this scenario.




I'm cleaning out my garage!
Billet upper mount for 3rd gen V6 swap!


Re: awd ecotec cav?
Friday, April 05, 2013 9:06 PM
Mr. Quick wrote:

An F40 transmission and rear differential from a Saab 9-3 Aero 2.0 turbo xwd should work.

PJ's suggestion of using J-body front end parts is a good idea for this scenario.


Me likely!
Re: awd ecotec cav?
Friday, April 05, 2013 10:04 PM
Mr. Quick wrote:

An F40 transmission and rear differential from a Saab 9-3 Aero 2.0 turbo xwd should work.

PJ's suggestion of using J-body front end parts is a good idea for this scenario.


the F40 is AWD? got any information on this. Nothing I've looked up confirms this.

would love to be proven wrong.





Re: awd ecotec cav?
Friday, April 05, 2013 10:12 PM
the only getrag I can find that had an AWD variant is the F28.

keep in mind, just because it's a "getrag" does not mean it's a direct bolt-up to the ecotec.

the F40 has the V6 Gm pattern, and will not bolt up to the ecotec as is.

also, when looking up information on the F28:

The transfer gearbox in the 4x4 models - the same box was used in the Vauxhall Cavalier 4x4 - was somewhat on the flimsy side, liable to suffer damage from conditions such as minor differences in tyre wear or tyre pressure between front and rear axles. Since front and rear tyres would naturally wear at different rates in normal driving, it was necessary to swap front with rear tyres every 1500 miles. All four tyres had to be of the same make and model, and all four tyres had to be replaced at the same time - if one tyre was damaged or punctured, the three remaining good tyres also had to be replaced. In addition there were other maintenance requirements which were both exacting and unusual. Neglect of these points through ignorance or a misconceived attempt to save money was common, and was likely to lead to very expensive failures of the transfer gearbox

doesn't sound fun to me.

throw a torsen LSD in the F23 and call it a day.






Re: awd ecotec cav?
Friday, April 05, 2013 10:37 PM
the saab 9-3 XWD is for the V6 variants only.

I can't find a picture of the engine to compare to the Ecotec


furthermore, the XWD system is heavily reliant on electronics... electronics we (most likely) don't have.

so again, I've worked this problem.
Evo VIII AWD system swap is your best bet... there is NO manual transmission that exists already that bolts to the ecotec that is AWD.





Re: awd ecotec cav?
Friday, April 05, 2013 11:31 PM
doing more digging, came up with a good idea.


the Evo 8 transmission.... again, closest thing to us.

but here's the NEW idea:

basically, their center differential is mounted where our differential is.
their front differential is mounted on the 'transfer case' which is either the Viscuous Coupling Unit (VCU) or the Active Center Differential (ACD)

the ACD is electronic... the VCU, however is purely mechanical.

so basically, disassemble an F23.
get an evo 8 center differential (LSD preferred)
remove our differential and replace with the evo 8 Center Diff)
(will have to be adapter to our final drive gear)

next, purchase a VCU transfer case
bolt it to the side of the F23
get the steering rack to fit somehow
custom axles all around
rear suspension mod with rear differential

DONE

far less custom parts on this, assuming the F23 can be easily modified and converted to AWD.

really, the hardest part is going to be installing the center diff into our transmission
second hardest part is going to be making the transfer case fit.

everything else for the most part would be complete cake.





Re: awd ecotec cav?
Saturday, April 06, 2013 2:14 AM
The Opel Insignia came with a AWD 6-speed transmission behind the 2.0L LDK...



Re: awd ecotec cav?
Saturday, April 06, 2013 7:42 AM
DaFlyinSkwirl (Pj) wrote:

doing more digging, came up with a good idea.


the Evo 8 transmission.... again, closest thing to us.

but here's the NEW idea:

basically, their center differential is mounted where our differential is.
their front differential is mounted on the 'transfer case' which is either the Viscuous Coupling Unit (VCU) or the Active Center Differential (ACD)

the ACD is electronic... the VCU, however is purely mechanical.

so basically, disassemble an F23.
get an evo 8 center differential (LSD preferred)
remove our differential and replace with the evo 8 Center Diff)
(will have to be adapter to our final drive gear)

next, purchase a VCU transfer case
bolt it to the side of the F23
get the steering rack to fit somehow
custom axles all around
rear suspension mod with rear differential

DONE

far less custom parts on this, assuming the F23 can be easily modified and converted to AWD.

really, the hardest part is going to be installing the center diff into our transmission
second hardest part is going to be making the transfer case fit.

everything else for the most part would be complete cake.



Well, custom axles are easy as hell to do. But what vcu transfer case? I'm using their center diff, but transfer case out of what there? Love the idea pj, idk how you find this much info out to come up with the ideas that you do
Re: awd ecotec cav?
Sunday, April 07, 2013 3:34 PM
DaFlyinSkwirl (Pj) wrote:

Mr. Quick wrote:

An F40 transmission and rear differential from a Saab 9-3 Aero 2.0 turbo xwd should work.

PJ's suggestion of using J-body front end parts is a good idea for this scenario.


the F40 is AWD? got any information on this. Nothing I've looked up confirms this.

would love to be proven wrong.

There is a transfer case, the F46, that attaches to the F40. If you look at an F40, there is a set of drilled and tapped bosses around the passenger side axle output where it attaches. This is present on all variants of the F40.
Match that with a Haldex 4 eLSD rear end, and you've got a nice drivetrain.




I'm cleaning out my garage!
Billet upper mount for 3rd gen V6 swap!


Re: awd ecotec cav?
Sunday, April 07, 2013 5:08 PM
DaFlyinSkwirl (Pj) wrote:

the F40 has the V6 Gm pattern, and will not bolt up to the ecotec as is.
The F40 from the 2.0 or 2.8 Saab 9-3 Aero has the Eco bolt pattern.




I'm cleaning out my garage!
Billet upper mount for 3rd gen V6 swap!


Re: awd ecotec cav?
Sunday, April 07, 2013 9:24 PM
I've always had thoughts of using a Montana SV6 mini van AWD setup. But would'nt an Eco or manual trans...



Re: awd ecotec cav?
Monday, April 08, 2013 12:01 AM
Mr. Quick wrote:

DaFlyinSkwirl (Pj) wrote:

Mr. Quick wrote:

An F40 transmission and rear differential from a Saab 9-3 Aero 2.0 turbo xwd should work.

PJ's suggestion of using J-body front end parts is a good idea for this scenario.


the F40 is AWD? got any information on this. Nothing I've looked up confirms this.

would love to be proven wrong.

There is a transfer case, the F46, that attaches to the F40. If you look at an F40, there is a set of drilled and tapped bosses around the passenger side axle output where it attaches. This is present on all variants of the F40.
Match that with a Haldex 4 eLSD rear end, and you've got a nice drivetrain.


help me here.

give me year ranges and models that have this transmission.

all the pictures of "9-3 transmission" look similar to the eco pattern, but the starter hump is in the wrong spot.

all of the pictures are of FWD only transmissions

I cannot find the F46 transfer case. what is a more descriptive part name or number?


btw, the F23 also has drilled and tapped holes on the passenger side of the case, so the F46 is potentially a bolt-on for the F23.

give me an idea of what they look like and where to get them. I'm searching ebay and junkyards and coming up with nothing but dead ends.






Re: awd ecotec cav?
Monday, April 08, 2013 7:12 AM
Oedwards wrote:

Is this it?

http://parts.nalleygmc.com/showAssembly.aspx?ukey_assembly=389292

That looks like it, although I see that it says Auto trans. I'm not sure, but it looks like this transfer case will go on either? I'll have to check it out more.

Oedwards wrote:

or this one?

http://www.tonkinonlineparts.com/showAssembly.aspx?ukey_product=6592243&ukey_assembly=819522&ukey_make=1086&ukey_model=15723&ukey_driveline=8578&ukey_trimlevel=0&modelYear=0

I'm not sure why a rear diff came up with that number, but that looks similar to the rear diff that goes in the Saab, but without the eLSD box on it (which which would be hard to integrate into our cars anyway).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Monday, April 08, 2013 7:18 AM

I'm cleaning out my garage!
Billet upper mount for 3rd gen V6 swap!



Re: awd ecotec cav?
Monday, April 08, 2013 7:17 AM
DaFlyinSkwirl (Pj) wrote:

help me here.

give me year ranges and models that have this transmission.

all the pictures of "9-3 transmission" look similar to the eco pattern, but the starter hump is in the wrong spot.

all of the pictures are of FWD only transmissions

I cannot find the F46 transfer case. what is a more descriptive part name or number?


btw, the F23 also has drilled and tapped holes on the passenger side of the case, so the F46 is potentially a bolt-on for the F23.

give me an idea of what they look like and where to get them. I'm searching ebay and junkyards and coming up with nothing but dead ends.
I don't know exactly, but I believe the years are 08-09, and you need to look at the transmission from the 2.0 turbo XWD manual transmission. I have been having a hard time finding a picture of the F40 from the Saab to verify the starter position, but I'm 99.9% sure that the transfer case will bolt to any of the versions. I've only been looking at the G6 version because it will bolt to a 3x00, so I haven't really looked at the Eco.

It would be interesting to compare the pattern of the F23 output to the F40. If they are the same, then adding that transfer case should work. However, the F23 was never used in an AWD vehicle, so there's a good possibility they are different and it was just there for a jack shaft.

I got a quote from a yard on one from an 08 Saab 9-3 Aero 6 speed manual for $850 plus shipping. I believe it was Out in Oregon, but I forget. I was intending on getting it back in the fall, but some sh!t came up that squashed that purchase.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Monday, April 08, 2013 7:37 AM

I'm cleaning out my garage!
Billet upper mount for 3rd gen V6 swap!


Re: awd ecotec cav?
Monday, April 08, 2013 7:32 AM
This is damn interesting.





Re: awd ecotec cav?
Monday, April 08, 2013 7:57 AM
OK I found a couple of pictures of the F40 on a 2.8 with AWD. They're not great, but you can see that the transfer case is bolted onto the output of the transmission, and then to the block. Obviously the end that attaches to the block would need to be modified, but no different than modifying a jack shaft to go on a different engine.

It does look like the transfer case is the same between the auto and manual versions of the 9-3 Aero, so that first link Oedwards posted should be it.


Attachments
AWDF401.jpg (26k)
AWDF404.jpg (24k)


I'm cleaning out my garage!
Billet upper mount for 3rd gen V6 swap!


Re: awd ecotec cav?
Monday, April 08, 2013 8:37 AM
Now that is pretty @!#$ neat.





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