Aren't you boosting?
You realize that's going to be putting boost in your crankcase creating positive pressure... right?
-Chris-
-Sweetness-
-Turbocharged-
Slowly but surely may some day win this race...
^^^ thats pretty much how stock is, only EVERY runner is connected...
failing to prepare is preparing to fail.
SweetnessGT wrote:Rarely do I post on here asking about issues I'm having. I'm all about researching the crap out of stuff and figuring it out but this has had me stumped for 2 years and it's gotten to me.
Ever since I had the first built motor 2 seasons ago my car has eaten oil like a champ. It eats oil fast.
For the Air/Oil separator I run the line from the crank case to the separator to a catch can to the turbo intake pre-turbo.
I've gone through 3 different 1/2" Turbo drain lines into the pan. 2 different oil pans with different inlet fittings.
I've used 2 different oil sending lines with 2 different restrictors.
I have blown the same turbo twice in 2 years. I don't overfill the oil, I've run many grades from 20w50 to 10w30.
I blew the turbo on the way home from the bash with less than 4000 miles on it. I have oil on spark plug #4 on the threads. (not the tip) The car does not seem down on power but HPT logs a misfire on cyl 4 at all times (I'm thinking due to oil vapour)... I only took notice of this after the turbo blew, though.
I have had a phantom exterior oil leak on the car for 2 years that I CANNOT find. It just seems to come from nowhere.
I've had oil coming out from under the cam tower bolts - I had to use sealer on the underside of them with washers to stop this phenomenon.
As soon as the turbo blew and the car started smoking like a beast at idle, my catch can started to fill up a little bit. Prior to that it was dry from break-in onward. I am running total seal piston rings... I haven't done a compression test yet but nothing leads me to believe I blew a ring or land or something - I'd HAVE to be down on power. I'm not. Plus the oil isn't on the plug tip.
I have a 2.5" downpipe for the turbo with inernal wastegate. I'm wondering if there's too much exhaust backpressure on the turbo leading to premature seal failure. I'm converting to external this winter (44mm) and leaving the 2.5" downpipe in place. I've only boosted 10 psi on the 2nd built motor.
... With all those symptoms... I need to point out that I have had the PCV Hole in the head blocked this entire time. I have the flange tapped with the Barb fitting there, but it has been blocked by the modified 2.3 manifold gasket.
I'm starting to wonder if it's the solution to all my effin problems. My 2.2 beater was eating oil for 2 years, changed the PCV in sept and now it runs clean, no oil loss. That immediately made me think of the built LD9 and all the effed up oil issues I have.
What EXACTLY does that pcv hole do. When is it used. Under load? Just idle?
Any help here from the boosted guys (esp with LD9's) would be great. I'm sick of battling this problem and rebuilding a turbo every 4000km is starting to REALLY irk me. My oil lines from ATP turbo are less than 3000 km old and I'm running their restrictor now.
This is the #1 reason why I keep not getting dyno #'s. As soon as I get to start tuning the car it blows a turbo... oil smoke everywhere. Then I redo EVERYTHING and try again. It's getting old fast.
Thanks,
-Chris-
wow, i just saw this postr after you responded to mine.
my cavys is doing EXACTLY the same thing!!! maybe worse...
I had oils coming out the cam tower bolt holes as well as between the head and cam towers,
i thought that the bolts just came loose, so i went to re-torque them and most all of them were loose, and some were even stripped.
just got done helicoiling them...
i dont have a catch can or anything, i just have my pcv line going to a lil breather filter, but it was always dripping oil and misting everything near it with an oily mist.
my underbelly is also oil coated now (good for the winter, will keep rust away) from the oil spray off the axle shaft.
i have been dumping oil like CRAZY.... was wondering what is the world is going on...
but as i am twincharged, my PCV vent isnt blocked... it is actually plumbed into my TB for vaccum... but it isnt vaccuum when the turbo spins up... so i am actually presurizing my head!!!!
i think this is what caused the recent death of my turbo... in my other post i explained how it came to a squealing demise...
and sweetness said it sounded like oil starvation... but i am like "nah it has good feed and return, should have plenty of oil" but now reading this... i think we are in the same boat.
i think due to positive crank and head pressure, the oil return wasnt returning, and my turbo starved.
Luckily i can just run my pcv lines to a vacuum easy enough... but i am already short one turbo...
Interesting reading but I have a question does the 086 head have this same hole or port to vent ?
I dont have a 2.4 block sitting around any more so i cant help you with the specifics, but i will see what i can do on the more standard stuff.
PCV should vent any time the engine is running- engine running= blowby= pressure in the crankcase, it wont matter if it is idle or WOT.
Without actually looking at (or remembering) a LD9 head, i would say you are on to something if you are blocking a PCV hole in the head- it stand to reason that this simply cannot be good- i will see if i can get my hands on a head to check. There are aftermarket vaccum pumps available to help with your crankcase pressure. Also check the flow potential of yor A/O seperator, it would have to be a pretty big unit to flow as much as a 1/2" unrestricted line can. I would agree with getting a pressure reading from the crankcase- should tell you quickly if there is an issue there.
If your return is an a constant downhill slope and entering the pan above the oil level there is no reason a 1/2" line shouldnt be sufficient.
I am not understanding the oil on plug number 4 (me>reading?) is it in the plug hole coating the porcelain (sp?) and boot, or is it only on the threads and on the tip?
On a side note- is you turbo BB or not. From what i understand non BB turbos should use a 0.065" restrictor for the oil line, and BB (smaller ones) should use around 0.035" (if there isnt an internal one, since apparently some are built with one)
As i read through your posts it looks like you have already realized the majority of your issues, so stat knocking them off- good luck
_
Now with northstar V8, IRS, 20's n 22's
Just to confirm in my own head, and to clarify for those who may not know the port we are refering to....
this is a small hole smack in the middle of the intake side of the head, directly between intake port 2 and 3.
I know at least on the mp45, there is a tiny lil nipple that points straight down that vents this port. it is connected to the inlet side of the sc (usually vacuum but not on a twin setup)
not sure where this is vented to on a stock mani. and it sounds like the old 2.3L stuff didnt have this, so it gets blocked with the use of HO and other 2.3L intakes.
i will see if i cant snap a pic later.
I wonder if there is some design differences between the 2.4 heads and the 2.3 heads where on the 2.3 design there is no reason for the pressure to build in the first place. On the other side...if someone would be willing to take a clean 2.4 head and trace that little hole in the head with some dyed water and find out where the pressure is being released from in the head then maybe the 086 swap guys can do something similar depending on the geography of the bleed. This may also allow 2.4 guys to drill a better/bigger hole closer to the "sweet spot" of where the pressure is bleed off from?!?!?
EDIT x2: Suspect it is bleeding pressure from the bottom of the lifters....which wouldn't be hard to rig-up a setup with a much larger ID off of the cam towers.....
Edited 2 time(s). Last edited Saturday, November 01, 2008 9:56 AM
<table>hello</table>
I have a extra head and access to some extra blocks (pre 00 and 00+) I will check into this.
FU Tuning
I have a head and block for a 2.4L LD9 (2002) sitting in my garage... and another whole LD9 in my beater car(1998), that i am about to swap out...
oh yeah, and i also had misfires and all that as well. but in my case, it was due to the oil leaks in the cam towers, that would get oil into the spark plug recess's and cause them to arc.
after i heliecoiled my bolts, and got my cam towers snugged back up, and stopped the leak... i left the spark plugs in, but removed the wires/idi... and just sprayed the heck out of the entire area with brake cleaner... then blew it all out with a blowgun. Got every trace of oil off the top of the engine... then took the plugs out, and sprayed them down, and blew out the sockets and all as well... Slapped it all back together and have not had a misfire since.
And then on to my turbo... i removed my pcv line from the head to the TB, and vented it out to open air.... started her up and drove her around a lil.. the horrible squeal has turned into a mild hum. So i think removing that line alone allowed the oil to get back to the turbo... i think the bearing are still shot, but at least it seems to be flowing again.
I am going to try to yank the turbo and see what kinda damage i have. it sounds like it may be just bearings now.. i was fearing something way worse.
anyone tried to take a turbo center section apart or rebuilt one themself?
Next step is to get a catch can and run both the head and blocks PCV lines to this, and plumb it into the pre-turbo intake. see if this further helps issues.
The hole in teh head goes to a passage in the block that runs right down to the air/oil seperator. It does not go up into the cam area at all, just into the block.
mitdr774 wrote:The hole in teh head goes to a passage in the block that runs right down to the air/oil seperator. It does not go up into the cam area at all, just into the block.
He is correct. I looked lastnight and took some pictures.
Here is pictures:
That hole leads to the first hole to the far right (closest to the air/oil sperator)
We blew air threw the hole and you could hear it going into the seperator, and you could feel it coming out the hose that leads back to the intake. So if you are boosting with this hole hooked up you will boost into it and into the seperator. Hope this helps some.
FU Tuning
Awesome thanks guys that clears that up.
As I suspected, it is the PCV "vent" side. I haven't been allowing it to vent right I think...
my question is... what happens with all the pressure built up in the top end?!
-Chris-
-Sweetness-
-Turbocharged-
Slowly but surely may some day win this race...
hmmmm.. ok... i just pulled my intake off the turbo, and felt my compressor wheel... it feels as tight as new... no play that i can feel in any direction.. feels just like i remeber it when i got it.... and i could spin it by hand real easy, no rubbing, no sounds, no nothing... turbo seems fine.... very odd... what else could be making those noises???
I was sure it was oil starved, and everyone i have talked to tells me that if it is acting like i described it, the bearings must be so far gone the wheels are rubbing and the whole thing is probably shot and will need replaced... but it seems just fine to me. i was expecting the wheel to almost fall off in my hand... but no such un-luck...
so what now?
mitdr774 wrote:The hole in teh head goes to a passage in the block that runs right down to the air/oil seperator. It does not go up into the cam area at all, just into the block.
truth i traced this out a few years ago when i was trying to hook up my pcv system, i blocked off the head with my flange for the intake, so i drilled and tapped the black plastic piece, then it runs to a small fuel filter, to a check valve, and then to the a vaccum sorce. not sure if its the proper way or not, but when i pulled my ho intake mani. last year i had a little oil build up in the bottom of the intake. heres a pic of how its run.
R.I.P. Brian Klocke, you will never be forgotten
Ive read this over 3 times now, and im still lost on what the solution is for this. With boost do you leave the hole, cover the hole or what?
I'm lost as to why the LD9 blocks were talked about like they are worlds apart? (1996-1999 and 2000-2002)
i thought the only difference between Pre00 and 00-02 blocks were the size of knock sensor used (or just a different sized hole)
I'm using a 98' block with an 086 head for boosted hybrid build in my 01 GT...is there more to the block then me just having to drill and tap the knock sensor hole?
damn, sorry Chris, i didn't meant to thread jack! I type just a quick as i hit the "buy now" buttons on e-bay
....
I swear sometimes it feels like i have a 3-legged gerbal rolling around in a cube in my head >:o
.the oil issue is because it's an LD9... to solve the problem get an ecotec
jk chris much love! (I own an ld9 as of this moment lol)
But when I boosted my ecotec I always let the PCV vent to atmosphere and I never really had an issue with oil loss. Because I knew having it hooked up it would pressureize the head and make problems
LE61T PTE6262 Powered 
Well then with this information there should be no need to bother venting that hole in the intake flange, however that means there still doesn't exist an answer to Chris's problem of pushing oil past the cam bolts. I wonder if you have a cracked head......
This also means that for people who vent the PCV hole in the head to solve existing oil issues they clearly dont have enough venting on the block seperator. We need TTR to make a slim aluminum cover with a -16an vent hole......I've made one that I can send him to mock up and sell....havn't tried it yet...sigh.
EDIT: I still believe if you have enough vent to atm. to not have a pressure problem in the crank case there is no point in sending the PCV system vacuum from the intake tract....
EDIT x2: I wonder what happens to the pressure that may build up in the valvetrain under the lifters.....caused by valve guide blow by. In a NA motor one could say vacuum would fix that since the leak could go both ways but if you boosted could you possibly "lift" the towers or push oil past the seals and cause leaks?!?!
Edited 2 time(s). Last edited Monday, November 03, 2008 7:51 AM
<table>hello</table>
By the way I'd like to thank all of you for contributing your thoughts so far, and thank you John for taking the time to take those pictures as I didn't pay attention to the PCV when my engine was apart.
-Chris-
-Sweetness-
-Turbocharged-
Slowly but surely may some day win this race...
If that hole in the head goes "straight into the seperator" like they said it does...it does nothing but add additional venting through the separator. IF that hole goes into the crank case then what you said is correct. Do you see why I said what I said now? - I know how a PCV system works, but if that hole does only go into the plastic separator then there is no point in trying to vent it...just increase to venting on the plastic cover. One more vent from the same place = just another vent.... Sure the information may be incorrect...it could go into the block and the air they felt is coming up from the valve but that's not what was said and that's the info I'm going off of.
<table>hello</table>
ken soggs wrote:hmmmm.. ok... i just pulled my intake off the turbo, and felt my compressor wheel... it feels as tight as new... no play that i can feel in any direction.. feels just like i remeber it when i got it.... and i could spin it by hand real easy, no rubbing, no sounds, no nothing... turbo seems fine.... very odd... what else could be making those noises???
I was sure it was oil starved, and everyone i have talked to tells me that if it is acting like i described it, the bearings must be so far gone the wheels are rubbing and the whole thing is probably shot and will need replaced... but it seems just fine to me. i was expecting the wheel to almost fall off in my hand... but no such un-luck...
so what now?
I could swear Chris started this thread to solve his problem, not discuss the life and death of your poor little turbo. I could be wrong though...
14.330 @ 96.37mph
Glad I could contribute.
Chris how exactly are you planning to vent the hole in the head?
FU Tuning
