BlackEco wrote:EvoFire wrote:bumpity bump...whats the newest on this?
Vince is apparently writing us a custom 2 bar OS and using Rare5spd's HPtuners to verify it is compatible and can be edited by others with their HPT.
My cavalier is getting parked back in the weeds for a few more months.
wait...what? If he is writing you guys a custom OS, I would hope he wouldn't stop at a 2-Bar? If he is going through that much effort, he might as well do a 3-bar (or make 3-bar optional) so that we can start seeing some real power out of these engines with the J-body PCM... Regardless though, there will still be crying about how LS1 HPTuned cars, Hondata. DSMlink and the likes get better support than the J-body.
BuiltNBoosted wrote: Ask fetter how much the correct standalone would have cost to run his car. I wanna say he told me $2000... could we do better with more? You bet. Is hpt working and cheaper than a standalone? Sure is
You seem to underestimate Megasquirt's capabilities, Vince. A single box that costs ~$400 and you have native support for the GM 6+1 wheel, COP, Sequential fire injection for any RPM, 4-bar map support, boost control, among numerous other features you are likely to never see with a custom J-body OS...oh and I can take it out, reflash it and use it in any vehicle with 12 cylinders or less for free.
I also really don't understand everyone's beef with standalones. MS uses all GM sensors, so it takes me about 10-20 minutes to wire everything back to stock and then I go pass emissions for the next 2 years. Sure it's illegal, so I can accept that, but the emissions reason is a very poor excuse that I hate hearing people use.
oldskool wrote:I'm glad you can spout off all these LD9 cars running the s/c reflash. They do not belong in this thread at all. Why do you keep bringing up stand alones?? They do not belong in this thread either. I paid for a complete tuning suite, one that works on the parameters used within the factory PCM, and it should NOT be the limiting factor on ANY car I tune. If i intended to go stand alone, I could have done that from the beginning.
Let me ask you straight up, have you ever used HPT? Did you pay 650 for a full tuning suite and get a shell of a 4-cyl tuning suite? If the answer is no, than you have no right to try to keep me from expressing my opinion. Why does it interest you if i slam HPT because it does not meet my needs? I paid for it with an expectation and it failed, and not you nor anyone else will "shut me up". I am "doing something" about it. Hence this thread - VInce is here to help.
As for the LSx guys, the tuning suite is not the limiting factor in how high they want to go, the hard ware is. I bought it with this in mind, and in fact the tuning suite IS the limiting factor in making power on the jbody platform, as well as the LNF platforms. Why do we not deserve the same as the LSx guys? You too would benefit from this, so i don't see what interest you have in defending them so much. Do you want me to suck their d1ck just for throwing us a bone? Do you want me to thank them? Honestly??? They took my money and gave me literally a fraction of what the LSx guys have for the same price, so don't even bring that up again.
Quite frankly, it seems like you are just trying to pick a fight for the cause of the day, or to hear your own voice. I hope that is not the case, but if it is, then fk you.
I understand your frustration, but I find it hypocritical that you bash HPTuners for not giving you the level of support of other vehicles for the same price, yet you say you are willing to pay $500 on top of the 650 you already spent for a speed density tune that is editable in HPT...
I have no signiture
Whalesac wrote:
I understand your frustration, but I find it hypocritical that you bash HPTuners for not giving you the level of support of other vehicles for the same price, yet you say you are willing to pay $500 on top of the 650 you already spent for a speed density tune that is editable in HPT...
I do not want to go down this road again, but my reason is i already made the investment in HPT, so I
could cut my losses and go stand alone, or I could seek the services of someone like Vince@trifecta who takes HPT's lack of support and turns it around. That's really all it is.
I'm choosing the latter for now because it turns out i have a vehicle that is not stand alone compatible - the LNF. Also, I'm finding i can recoup some of my losses by tuning for other people. Not a big business by any means, but its something.
FWIW, in my conversation with him, all he was going to do was change the programming so the load axis in the VE tables is drawn from whatever MAP sensor is installed. If he can make that programming tweak, than it seems like the rest is cake for him. Well see.
fair enough.
I have no signiture
i am really interested in getting this HPT help for supercharged eco
Heres the latest email: Attached is the screen capture. Photobucket just made it smaller and harder to read.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Here you go.
This proves we have the image readable by HPT, and illustrates the differences between the S/C flash and the “stock” flash.
Upon a closer look, it appears the High RPM VE table may actually be MAP driven instead of TPS driven, based on the values GM stuck in there. I don’t know what the scaling might be, that would require some experimentation (or some more staring at bits and bytes in the PCM).
I’ll send your cable back today. Thanks for loaning it to me for this demonstration, hopefully we can move this project along.
- Vince Geglia
Trifecta Performance, Inc.
- Attachments
- L61SCFlashHPT.jpg (376k)
Save your money. It might be worth something someday.
So when is this going to be avaliable
GODZILLA wrote:So when is this going to be avaliable
Whenever people decide they have enough proof and it's worth paying for.
Personally - this looks like GM fudged it. Fueling load is still TPS, and it commands 10.7:1 when it's warmed up. I can do what GM did right there w/o the reflash, what we need is rescaled load axes, and if Vince is upto the task, that's what I'm willing to pay for. I'd rather have the fuel/spark load referenced to MAP via his custom tweaks.
How does everyone else feel?
oldskool wrote:GODZILLA wrote:So when is this going to be avaliable
Whenever people decide they have enough proof and it's worth paying for.
Personally - this looks like GM fudged it. Fueling load is still TPS, and it commands 10.7:1 when it's warmed up. I can do what GM did right there w/o the reflash, what we need is rescaled load axes, and if Vince is upto the task, that's what I'm willing to pay for. I'd rather have the fuel/spark load referenced to MAP via his custom tweaks.
How does everyone else feel?
I would agree...... I can already to this via a fake 2bar tune....
P&P Tuning
420.5whp / 359.8wtq
oldskool wrote:GODZILLA wrote:So when is this going to be avaliable
Whenever people decide they have enough proof and it's worth paying for.
Personally - this looks like GM fudged it. Fueling load is still TPS, and it commands 10.7:1 when it's warmed up. I can do what GM did right there w/o the reflash, what we need is rescaled load axes, and if Vince is upto the task, that's what I'm willing to pay for. I'd rather have the fuel/spark load referenced to MAP via his custom tweaks.
How does everyone else feel?
A HPT editable tune that is better than the Crapflash? Where do i sign up.
oldskool wrote:GODZILLA wrote:So when is this going to be avaliable
Whenever people decide they have enough proof and it's worth paying for.
Personally - this looks like GM fudged it. Fueling load is still TPS, and it commands 10.7:1 when it's warmed up. I can do what GM did right there w/o the reflash, what we need is rescaled load axes, and if Vince is upto the task, that's what I'm willing to pay for. I'd rather have the fuel/spark load referenced to MAP via his custom tweaks.
How does everyone else feel?
You are looking at a table through the eyes of the HPT software. If you read Vince's comments...
Vince wrote:
It is unconfirmed, but it is possible this flash uses MAP instead of TPS for the high RPM VE table - it is hard to imagine the VE decreasing as TPS increases.
...and if you look at the PE VE table, why would your max VE appear at 30% throttle? That doesn't make sense in any conceivable way. HPT is reading this as a Alpha-N table because that's what it expects, but this could very well be speed density table.
I have no signiture
sorry, meant "High RPM VE Table" not "PE VE Table"
I have no signiture
Whalesac, you have a good point, but whether the load axis is TPS or MAP, the fueling map doesn't make sense. If the high RPM table is based on MAP load, why would it peak in the middle of the axis, which could still be in vacuum or very low boost? Everyone's accounts of the reflash running so rich out of the box make a lot of sense when looking at what's posted. Whatever GM did, i'm sure the fact that the M62 makes boost in an RPM/TPS dependent manner helps it stay viable.
Not to sound like a broken record (again), but even if Vince can give us MAP voltage as the load axis, it would be great. That way ppl can plug in whatever the hell map the want and read/tune boost via slope/offset. I'd rather know exactly what i'm tuning if we're paying and we have a choice. The reflash is just to fishy to be worth the money IMO; i was looking for a straightforward 2.5bar speed density system, GM let us down again lol.
However, it's not up to me, it's up to the community. That's why Vince rocks - he wants to know what we want.
The High RPM table is just a set of bins. The HPTuner software expects these bins to represent some matching set of RPM and TPS values, but if the lookup is coming from a completely different sensor input, then there is no telling for sure what these values for that sensor represents, and depending on how the code is implemented, they don't even necessarily have to correspond to the same voltage levels. I've been thinking about the odd decrease in VE values with increasing "TPS" values, and I honestly can't think of a good reason unless maybe there is also a MAP multiplier hidden somewhere in the code (pretty dumb if that's the case). At first, I thought maybe overboost protection, but I highly doubt that.
IDK, I'm not so bold as to say this is definitely a speed density tune, but it sure doesn't look like Alpha-N, and if you look at the track record for factory boosted reflashes, it would only make sense that this too is Speed Density. I really hope Vince can get this to work out for you guys.
I have no signiture
I guess i'm making the assumption that since Vince doesn't own his own HPT interface/software, that this is the first time he's seen it in HPT as well. He was saying the axes are not different long before he borrowed that interface, so, although I don't know the correct computer programming speak for what i'm trying to say, I don't think it's just HPT assigning code to a table, it is what it is.
HPTuners just changes your computer's look-up table bins. It does not write anymore code than what GM provided. When I refer to code, I'm talking about the routines GM uses to access these tables. You're right, HPT doesn't change the "code," it changes the bin values in memory, so the axes shouldn't be different.
I have no signiture
From what I remember about watching characteristics of the reflash and how the engine responds to boost.........the TP where the huffer bypass valve closes on an unported M62 is around 28%. The high VE values are not because the motor needs more fuel to make peak power, but for detonation control as the cylinder pressure changes dramatically.
oldskool wrote: If the high RPM table is based on MAP load, why would it peak in the middle of the axis,
Yeah I think that table is TPS referenced, my theory on what is going on is once KPA is over 100kpa (around where those values max out in the map) there is some other boost MAP referenced table adding additional fuel into the equation. The reason there are still values after that point in the High RPM TPS ref. VE table is for partial throttle decel, etc.
Hahn Stage II - Mitsu TD06-20g |3" Turbo-back Exhaust | 61mm Bored TB |
HP Tuners | Innovate WB02 | Spec Stage 3 | Team Green LSD | TurboTech Upper | Full Addco Sways | Sportlines & Yellows |
are we gonna be able to mess with the fuel decel tables ?
im sick of the exhaust popping on decel
I am ready whenever, i just want something where i dont have to go stand alone
I can't believe I haven't seen this till now!
Very interested in this project, definitely willing to pay for an editable 2.5bar speed density tune.
Will be watching this for updates!
If I hadn't gotten the port fueler then I would have considered this. It would only really be of use to me now if it was very very affordable, so I could tune spark. Anyways cool to see you guys actually going through with this.
" To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous. "
BlackEco wrote:
Yeah I think that table is TPS referenced, my theory on what is going on is once KPA is over 100kpa (around where those values max out in the map) there is some other boost MAP referenced table adding additional fuel into the equation. The reason there are still values after that point in the High RPM TPS ref. VE table is for partial throttle decel, etc.
I have to agree. At this point I'm up for a custom 2.5 bar OS. If he can make it work right with just whats available in hptuners to edit, that would be great.
Save your money. It might be worth something someday.
Should I inquire an editable custom OS tune form Vince?
Save your money. It might be worth something someday.
I didn't read all this thread. Got to like page 4. For anyone giving vince money. I would think twice about. He likes to take credit for other peoples work and can't tune for sh!t on a ls1 or lt1 car. Let alone do a boosted tune. His mail order tunes are just @!#$. He knows exactly who I am as he tuned me 95 procharged 383 about 3 years ago. Where then he was saying on his site he didn't do the tuning that pcmforless did the tunes. That you were paying for the handheld tuner. Which is also a joke. When I loaded the tune and my car would idle shooting black out. In boost it would miss like hell from the the fat a/f mixture. I called him and complained about it. Where he told me to do logs of the car. Where he then said it was fine there wasn't anything in the tune that did it.
That it was his tune was perfect. When I asked about pcmforless doing the tunes. He said no it was him. Which it probably was as pcmforless has a good rep for mail orders. Though my blms were pegged everywhere but was perfect. He wouldn't return calls either. Or e-mails which shows himself in this thread. After bitching for two weeks to him he told me that there was some secret menu on the hand held. That would tell me what the car was doing. If there was or not I have no clue as the tuner was locked. Then that was when he wouldn't return calls. About a week went by to where I got pissed off and shipped his junk back. After he got the tuner and 3 days later he charged my debit card $400 bux's for the junk tuner. Where he wouldn't return my calls but did for my bank. Where he said he would credit my account back. Which he never did the bank had to give me my money.
The funny thing is I didn't even break 380 whp on the dyno a few weeks later. After 3 pulls on the dyno with tuning. It put down 580whp at 5100rpms clipping the 42lb green tops. With only 6lbs out of the procharger. I had plenty more in it as the cam was suppose to pull to 6400. This guy is honestly bad news for the ls1/lt1 crowd. I seen where he is suppose to be doing good on the cobalts how ever. Take it as a grain of salt though. I believe if I remember right he is also bad for locking his tunes. I can't remember and honestly don't care to know anymore.
oldskool wrote:I'm glad you can spout off all these LD9 cars running the s/c reflash. They do not belong in this thread at all. Why do you keep bringing up stand alones?? They do not belong in this thread either. I paid for a complete tuning suite, one that works on the parameters used within the factory PCM, and it should NOT be the limiting factor on ANY car I tune. If i intended to go stand alone, I could have done that from the beginning.
Let me ask you straight up, have you ever used HPT? Did you pay 650 for a full tuning suite and get a shell of a 4-cyl tuning suite? If the answer is no, than you have no right to try to keep me from expressing my opinion. Why does it interest you if i slam HPT because it does not meet my needs? I paid for it with an expectation and it failed, and not you nor anyone else will "shut me up". I am "doing something" about it. Hence this thread - VInce is here to help.
As for the LSx guys, the tuning suite is not the limiting factor in how high they want to go, the hard ware is. I bought it with this in mind, and in fact the tuning suite IS the limiting factor in making power on the jbody platform, as well as the LNF platforms. Why do we not deserve the same as the LSx guys? You too would benefit from this, so i don't see what interest you have in defending them so much. Do you want me to suck their d1ck just for throwing us a bone? Do you want me to thank them? Honestly??? They took my money and gave me literally a fraction of what the LSx guys have for the same price, so don't even bring that up again.
Quite frankly, it seems like you are just trying to pick a fight for the cause of the day, or to hear your own voice. I hope that is not the case, but if it is, then fk you.
Not trying to bash oldskool but lsx pcms hardware is not the problem it is the ltx pcms. Lsx pcms support way more power than what a j-body could think of doing. Also the lsx pcm has way more features than a j-body pcm. It isn't just the software it is also the pcm. The orange cav guy is right also. Why would hptuners do all this for j-bodys when the lsx crowd is the number on tuning crowd to them? Believe it if want or not. But I believe everyone talked hptuners into supporting the j crowd. Where they aren't making really any money off it. Jbody people are cheap. So why sink more into it? They have release notes and all that good stuff saying what you can do. You knew this when you paid for the program. So there is no need to bitch about it. Though if they were making more money off the j crowd. They probably would have added more things. As long as it can be done.
Now I am not picking a fight or anything with you. Just saying.
