Cobalt SS PCM swap -P12 research- - Page 2 - Tuning Forum

Forum Post / Reply
You must log in before you can post or reply to messages.
Re: Cobalt SS PCM swap -P12 research-
Wednesday, April 17, 2013 6:56 PM
So based on the research presented here, and E67 pcm would give you a lot more challenges than the P12 right? I still have a hankering for a TVS charged LE5 jbody, VVT intact




Re: Cobalt SS PCM swap -P12 research-
Wednesday, April 17, 2013 7:27 PM
oldskool wrote:

So based on the research presented here, and E67 pcm would give you a lot more challenges than the P12 right? I still have a hankering for a TVS charged LE5 jbody, VVT intact


it all depends on the results of the P12 swap.

my theory is that loss of class 2 communication to the BCM won't really mean dick-all to the BCM itself, especially with VATS disabled.

the P12 still utilizes class 2 in some iteration, that's why I figured I'd start my experimentation there.

if the jbody BCM DOES freak out because of loss of class 2 with the P11 PCM
-or-
if the P12 freaks out because it doesn't have communication with the delta BCM via GM high speed LAN

then a delta BCM swap will have to be done as well.


the Jbody stuff is getting harder to find as the platform gets older because there's simply less of them out there.... not like anyone necessarily would WANT the Jbody crap at this point

the only real issue is the Jbody speedo calibration IS different from the delta, but this is something we can re-tune with HPT.
also, I don't believe any vehicles with the E67 came without ABS, so that could be an issue as well because I don't know if the wheel speed sensors have different tooth counts (I assume they do) and IDK if this is a programmable parameter via HPT on the E67 (I don't have the beta so I can't even look at an E67 tune right now and I DO NOT want the newest version of HPT)

I haven't even begun to crossreference EBCM compatibility between the two

in the end, if one DID want to swap an E67 into a Jbody, and a delta BCM swap was required, I don't think it'd be completely out of the question. the BCMs seem to be plentiful on ebay and relatively cheap.







Re: Cobalt SS PCM swap -P12 research-
Wednesday, April 17, 2013 7:34 PM
I'm not sure the wheel speed sensors have any more bearing on the E67/P12 than they do on the P11, but I could be wrong. E.G., the ABS light on a jbody is out of scope for HPT, as i think it is for deltas



Re: Cobalt SS PCM swap -P12 research-
Thursday, April 18, 2013 3:38 AM
Tech II is the only thing to turn of the ABS light.






Re: Cobalt SS PCM swap -P12 research-
Sunday, May 05, 2013 7:34 PM
This is something I have always desired to try. Very glad to see someone who is easily capable of going through the process with no doubts of success as the only option.

To the member who commented on the 80% reading for the DBW setups, that references the voltage as opposed to butterfly opening.
Re: Cobalt SS PCM swap -P12 research-
Tuesday, May 07, 2013 1:23 AM
PJ why isn't this completed, running, and a how to already posted?!






Re: Cobalt SS PCM swap -P12 research-
Tuesday, May 07, 2013 5:19 AM
EVILution (KGMs FrankenCav) wrote:

PJ why isn't this completed, running, and a how to already posted?!

x2. Who needs work? That's no excuse.



"In Oldskool we trust"
Re: Cobalt SS PCM swap -P12 research-
Wednesday, May 08, 2013 6:27 PM
x3

If you need any help, I can grab some cobalt computers, BCM/ecu/ignition and put stuff on the bench with a simulator.

In my opinion, Class 2 Data, high speed LAN, or any serial communication is way too overrated. How is it that my 56 buick can do everything my 04 cavalier can do on the interior, but for some reason every interior and dash light needs to be controlled by a computer. I get that it may be beneficial for theft, but easily bypassed. The only useful application that I can think of is ICM and ECU sync, which is only a crank sensor pass-through line at that.
/rant


I wouldn't be opposed to running the P12 and delta BCM, weather or not the delta BCM is actually functional I could care less. Always wanted to do a custom cluster.

But most importantly...
x3



I roll on steelies. Work-in-progress daily-sleeper potential.
http://www.j-body.org/classifieds/engine/60493/
Re: Cobalt SS PCM swap -P12 research-
Wednesday, May 08, 2013 9:37 PM
Eric Knight wrote:

x3

If you need any help, I can grab some cobalt computers, BCM/ecu/ignition and put stuff on the bench with a simulator.

In my opinion, Class 2 Data, high speed LAN, or any serial communication is way too overrated. How is it that my 56 buick can do everything my 04 cavalier can do on the interior, but for some reason every interior and dash light needs to be controlled by a computer. I get that it may be beneficial for theft, but easily bypassed. The only useful application that I can think of is ICM and ECU sync, which is only a crank sensor pass-through line at that.
/rant


I wouldn't be opposed to running the P12 and delta BCM, weather or not the delta BCM is actually functional I could care less. Always wanted to do a custom cluster.

But most importantly...
x3


I think they did it more for the sake of convenience features... ie. keyless entry, remote start, remote trunk release, etc.

the BCM can very easily be bypassed by re-wiring the car. In theory, with VATS disabled, the PCM will control the car without the BCM and depending on the communications of the PCM in question, will output class 2 gauge information (the P11 will do this, the P12 however will not... it needs the BCM to translate the high speed LAN to low speed LAN before it goes to the gauge cluster.

of course, that is assuming you wanted to run factory gauges. if you wanted, you could just run an OBD2 standard gauge interface (like my racepak IQ3) or similar.


and, I'm working on it. still having other issues with the car... rear brakes, and fuel feed line problems recently... now I'm still fighting my clutch pedal.





Re: Cobalt SS PCM swap -P12 research-
Thursday, May 09, 2013 1:56 AM
Factory gauges are a necessary evil. I had to replace the stepper motors in the cluster already. The racepak IQ3 is on my Christmas list
So I'm guessing that your gauges won't work unless you wire in the delta BCM. I didn't read too much into the Iq3 though, just love the options.

Let's take a more scientific approach. Correct me where I'm wrong I'm new to the hybrid efi world, but very enthusiastic.

Problem:
The P12 will not output gauge info without the BCM.
Electronic Throttle Body Swap

Possible Solutions:
-Run the P11 and the P12 piggyback style. Giving full control to the P12, but using the P11 for the Class 2 Gauge Data. (Possibly throttle position?? no)
Would this solve the need for a delta eBCM?

-Run the delta BCM with the P12 and use it with a racepack Iq3

-If the P12 will run the engine without the BCM - custom analog gauges.

-Run the J-body throttle body and bypass the connections that control the TB on the P12 with the appropriate components, tap the TPS. (assuming the P12 uses a stepper IAC)



p.s. I have the newest beta if you want me to look at a E67 hpt file. Just need to know where to look (model years in the repository/ direct llink, and what you're looking for




I roll on steelies. Work-in-progress daily-sleeper potential.
http://www.j-body.org/classifieds/engine/60493/
Re: Cobalt SS PCM swap -P12 research-
Thursday, May 09, 2013 2:11 AM
PJ,
Just curious. Where do you work at and doing what? Looking for career advice.



I roll on steelies. Work-in-progress daily-sleeper potential.
http://www.j-body.org/classifieds/engine/60493/

Re: Cobalt SS PCM swap -P12 research-
Thursday, May 09, 2013 10:39 AM
Eric Knight wrote:

Factory gauges are a necessary evil. I had to replace the stepper motors in the cluster already. The racepak IQ3 is on my Christmas list
So I'm guessing that your gauges won't work unless you wire in the delta BCM. I didn't read too much into the Iq3 though, just love the options.

Let's take a more scientific approach. Correct me where I'm wrong I'm new to the hybrid efi world, but very enthusiastic.

Problem:
The P12 will not output gauge info without the BCM.
Electronic Throttle Body Swap

Possible Solutions:
-Run the P11 and the P12 piggyback style. Giving full control to the P12, but using the P11 for the Class 2 Gauge Data. (Possibly throttle position?? no)
Would this solve the need for a delta eBCM?

-Run the delta BCM with the P12 and use it with a racepack Iq3

-If the P12 will run the engine without the BCM - custom analog gauges.

-Run the J-body throttle body and bypass the connections that control the TB on the P12 with the appropriate components, tap the TPS. (assuming the P12 uses a stepper IAC)



p.s. I have the newest beta if you want me to look at a E67 hpt file. Just need to know where to look (model years in the repository/ direct llink, and what you're looking for


this problem doesn't exist.

in the explanation for the P12, the high and low speed LAN networks don't communicate diagnostic information, class 2 serial does.

the P12 was a weird mixture of old and new technology, and I'm hoping that since it does have class 2 in some shape or form, that I could get my BCM to play nice with it.
but even if the answer is no, and the Jbody PCM does no like the P12 PCM, I have contingency plans for every possible outcome.
I'm also hoping that since it communicats diagnostic over class 2, that my OBD2 interface will plug in and all my gauges will work the same as before.

But the IQ3 does not NEED OBD2 communication to work.
the OBD2 interface just makes it a lot easier to get a lot of inputs. Plug in the module to the OBD2 port, program the settings in the IQ3, done.

I can side-step the need for the OBD2 interface by utilizing a universal sensor module and running wires from the sensors I'd need to reclaim (RPM, ECT, MAP)
the only down side is VSS would be more difficult to get back because our VSS uses a VR sensor, and the USM would want to see hall-effect.





Re: Cobalt SS PCM swap -P12 research-
Friday, May 10, 2013 6:26 AM
Well I've decided that I cannot help very much, so I'm gonna look forward to seeing the progress and info you discover.

Subscribed.

and you never told me about your day job! :| .....



I roll on steelies. Work-in-progress daily-sleeper potential.
http://www.j-body.org/classifieds/engine/60493/
Re: Cobalt SS PCM swap -P12 research-
Friday, May 10, 2013 11:51 PM
Eric Knight wrote:

Well I've decided that I cannot help very much, so I'm gonna look forward to seeing the progress and info you discover.

Subscribed.

and you never told me about your day job! :| .....


it's just a blue collar job fixing machines that do lithography work.
basically a printing press that prints on to metal

it sucks. i hate it, but it pays the bills. overall the job isn't bad, but every workplace has politics and that's the part of the job that I cannot stand.
I did gain a lot of skills from my work experience so I can't complain too much.

I didn't really pursue it, it just kind of fell into my lap and it's worked out so far.





Re: Cobalt SS PCM swap -P12 research-
Wednesday, May 22, 2013 5:15 AM
Eric Knight wrote:

x3

If you need any help, I can grab some cobalt computers, BCM/ecu/ignition and put stuff on the bench with a simulator.

In my opinion, Class 2 Data, high speed LAN, or any serial communication is way too overrated. How is it that my 56 buick can do everything my 04 cavalier can do on the interior, but for some reason every interior and dash light needs to be controlled by a computer. I get that it may be beneficial for theft, but easily bypassed. The only useful application that I can think of is ICM and ECU sync, which is only a crank sensor pass-through line at that.
/rant


I wouldn't be opposed to running the P12 and delta BCM, weather or not the delta BCM is actually functional I could care less. Always wanted to do a custom cluster.

But most importantly...
x3

Apart from theft, with today's high speed architectures, serial communication (i.e. TCP/IP, CAN, LIN, etc.) allows for the seemingly instantaneous transfer of loads of data, reliably across only a couple wires from one module to another.





I have no signiture
Re: Cobalt SS PCM swap -P12 research-
Wednesday, May 22, 2013 10:11 AM
Eric Knight wrote:


-Run the J-body throttle body and bypass the connections that control the TB on the P12 with the appropriate components, tap the TPS. (assuming the P12 uses a stepper IAC)

The P12 computer is a completely different setup, drive by wire of course. There is no IAC solenoid on the DBW setups, just the computer controlling the throttle plate for IAC function, as opposed to the manual throttle stop and IAC on our J's.



And for what its worth, I believe a lot of work with go into wiring the DBW throttle body. Here is a diagram I found of an LSJ DBW setup.Along with the 5 volt references you could get from the J body IAC and TPS sensors, you will need two TPS reference signals and I am assuming by the diagram two 12V sources to power the throttle body.

Good luck on the P12 project PJ!




Currently #4 in Ecotec Forced Induction horsepower ratings. 505.8 WHP 414WTQ!!!
Currently 6th quickest Ecotec on the .org -12.453 @ 116.45 MPH!!!

Re: Cobalt SS PCM swap -P12 research-
Saturday, June 29, 2013 9:06 AM
Roofy wrote:

Eric Knight wrote:


-Run the J-body throttle body and bypass the connections that control the TB on the P12 with the appropriate components, tap the TPS. (assuming the P12 uses a stepper IAC)

The P12 computer is a completely different setup, drive by wire of course. There is no IAC solenoid on the DBW setups, just the computer controlling the throttle plate for IAC function, as opposed to the manual throttle stop and IAC on our J's.



And for what its worth, I believe a lot of work with go into wiring the DBW throttle body. Here is a diagram I found of an LSJ DBW setup.Along with the 5 volt references you could get from the J body IAC and TPS sensors, you will need two TPS reference signals and I am assuming by the diagram two 12V sources to power the throttle body.

Good luck on the P12 project PJ!



Its not as simple as 2 tps signals. Those signals do not match and output different voltages from each other while the TB is sweeping. The computer must see those voltages correctly or it will go reduced power mode and only allow i believe 10% throttle.

PJ i had this idea years ago but didn't have the knowledge ive aquired over the last 3 years being a lead diagnostic technician. This swap really is not as involved as you might assume just will take time to get all the kinks worked out.

Your computer does not care what type of VSS sensor it is as long as its a 0 to 5v square wave signal. PJ i really wish i had more time to answer your questions over the phone but with a 8 month old baby and working 60 hours a week its difficult for me to sit down and talk for anything more then 5 minutes at a time.

If you have any questions CALL ME. I want to see this done as the LSJ computer can handle the types of power levels your trying to acheive.



Re: Cobalt SS PCM swap -P12 research-
Saturday, June 29, 2013 6:16 PM
I def appreciate the input tom


the vss is a VR sensor tho... VRs don't output SIN waves

if the P12 is expecting to see a square wave and the LSJ uses a hall-effect, then I'm in trouble lol





Re: Cobalt SS PCM swap -P12 research-
Monday, July 01, 2013 4:33 PM
Id love for this to work so that Ryan would be happy with my car



Re: Cobalt SS PCM swap -P12 research-
Monday, July 01, 2013 9:57 PM
I'm extremely close to turbo charging the car, it's probably going to start going under the knife this week or next.

once I finish the mechanical aspect of the install, the P12 swap gets thrown into high-gear

I am tempted sometimes to just throw a megasquirt box at the car, or try my 3-bar MAP sensor TPS swap and re-calibration on the P11, but doing that could cause a whole lot of other issues with the way the P11 works (or how I THINK it works)

I think the P12 is going to be a much better solution.
Vince, you have to remember tho, the P12 is looking for a 60-2 crank pattern, it won't run the 6+1 ecotec triggers






Re: Cobalt SS PCM swap -P12 research-
Thursday, July 04, 2013 11:48 AM
DaFlyinSkwirl (Pj) wrote:


I think the P12 is going to be a much better solution.
Vince, you have to remember tho, the P12 is looking for a 60-2 crank pattern, it won't run the 6+1 ecotec triggers


Id figure something out!




Re: Cobalt SS PCM swap -P12 research-
Friday, July 05, 2013 2:10 PM
BuiltNBoosted wrote:

DaFlyinSkwirl (Pj) wrote:


I think the P12 is going to be a much better solution.
Vince, you have to remember tho, the P12 is looking for a 60-2 crank pattern, it won't run the 6+1 ecotec triggers


Id figure something out!


Somebody better start making 6 +1 trigger wheels then!



Re: Cobalt SS PCM swap -P12 research-
Saturday, July 06, 2013 10:23 AM
Just wanted to say that reading owns me.



Re: Cobalt SS PCM swap -P12 research-
Monday, July 15, 2013 3:47 AM
7.25" would clear a stock crank pulley better.





Forum Post / Reply
You must log in before you can post or reply to messages.

 

Start New Topic Advanced Search