"Cant" run E85 on stock PCM? OK.. why cant we run this? - Page 2 - Tuning Forum

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Re:
Tuesday, April 16, 2013 5:06 PM
You realize that the gains of running this or just running a whole pile of meth will be about the same right.

It is proven on other cars but the same can be said with meth. You seem to focus on things and make them alot more complicated then they need to be.

Tune...lots of meth....enjoy

Re:
Tuesday, April 16, 2013 5:11 PM
An excerpt about where the black goo comes from.keep in mind this stuff is clogging injectors causing engines to blow.

Alright, I finished my analysis of this stuff, and my finding is very unexpected. I think it will probably surprise everyone else as well. This doesn't appear to be forming because ethanol is "such a good solvent" but because ethanol is a poor solvent. I suppose it should have been obvious when others said that it "washes right off with gasoline". Why would something that ethanol is selectively dissolving wash off with gasoline? If this were something in rubber or from our fuel tanks, wouldn't that imply that gasoline would dissolve it even more readily than E85?

Alright, so what is this stuff? It is a appears to be a very large petroleum based hydrocarbon, similar to Vaseline. There isn't a single hetero-atom in the molecule (ie, the entire molecule is comprised of hydrogens and carbons), but the molecule is very large. It is also completely aliphatic (ie, only single bonds in the structure - no double or triple bonds). Where did it come from? I can only think of two different sources it could be coming from. It is either something that is mixed in with the rubber hoses that is meant to dissolve away in the gasoline, or it is a trace impurity in the 15% gasoline that is in E85 that wasn't separated during the fractional distillation process. Because it is such a large molecule, it wouldn't be very soluble in ethanol and could easily crash out of solution at the injector."

"Well, here is what I did just so everyone is clear. I filled a 40mL vial with E85 and blew it dry with nitrogen gas and mild heating (about 150*F). After there was no fuel left, I placed it under high vacuum to remove any remaining volatiles for about an hour. I was left with a clear sticky residue that smelled bad - like nasty frying oil. I dissolved this sample in the NMR solvent and analyzed it and it IS the same goo that was on the injector. There was smaller amounts of some other stuff in it as well, but the same peaks I saw in the black goo were in this residue. The black goo IS coming from the E85. It isn't naturally black, though. I suspect it just has soot mixed in with it that is giving it the color.

So the next challenge is figuring out why is this crap in our fuel, and if it is in everyone's fuel (particularly people who aren't having this problem)."
Re:
Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:22 PM
let me jut ask this one SIMPLE question.... does our stock O2 sensor read in millivolts and convert to LAMDBA?

yes or no.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Wednesday, April 17, 2013 7:26 AM


It's nice to be injected but I love being blown.
Re:
Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:25 PM



Edited 2 time(s). Last edited Wednesday, April 17, 2013 11:02 AM


FU Tuning



Re:
Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:36 PM
now who doesnt know what they are doing? O2 sensors or AKA LAMBDA SENSORS are exactly what our cars use, john.


Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:45 PM


It's nice to be injected but I love being blown.
Re:
Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:45 PM



Edited 2 time(s). Last edited Wednesday, April 17, 2013 11:03 AM


FU Tuning



Re:
Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:46 PM
edited.



It's nice to be injected but I love being blown.
Re:
Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:49 PM
Addicted to meth wrote:

It reads in volts. 0-5


actually, its 0.2 - 0.8 volts.

0.2 meaning max lean, and 0.8 meaning max rich.



It's nice to be injected but I love being blown.
Re:
Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:53 PM
now... this bit of info i just picked up might be the wrench thats thrown into the idea so to speak...

"When an internal combustion engine is under high load (e.g. wide open throttle), the output of the oxygen sensor is ignored, and the ECU automatically enriches the mixture to protect the engine, as misfires under load are much more likely to cause damage. This is referred to as an engine running in 'open-loop mode'."

i dont know what the conversion box does without lamda O2 sensor information at WOT. ill have to call the company back tommarrow and ask.



It's nice to be injected but I love being blown.
Re:
Tuesday, April 16, 2013 7:01 PM
You didn't know that and you want to switch to a different fuel type with a voodoo box and argue with everyone about everything?
Re:
Tuesday, April 16, 2013 7:02 PM
-Z Yaaaa- wrote:

now... this bit of info i just picked up might be the wrench thats thrown into the idea so to speak...

"When an internal combustion engine is under high load (e.g. wide open throttle), the output of the oxygen sensor is ignored, and the ECU automatically enriches the mixture to protect the engine, as misfires under load are much more likely to cause damage. This is referred to as an engine running in 'open-loop mode'."

i dont know what the conversion box does without lamda O2 sensor information at WOT. ill have to call the company back tommarrow and ask.






Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Wednesday, April 17, 2013 11:03 AM


FU Tuning




Re:
Tuesday, April 16, 2013 7:05 PM
yes, forgive me for not graduating top notch tuning academy like you, sir.

i simply want to get my setup some more power. E85 has been proven on TONS of other vehicles to do just that. i do not see the complication with me wanting to try something different.

and as i think about that paragraph i find that it is meaningless as the conversion box is still going to amplify whatever signal the ecu sends the injectors, even at WOT, so... again, it has to be tuned in properly. nothing new, there.



It's nice to be injected but I love being blown.
Re:
Tuesday, April 16, 2013 7:11 PM
john, thank you for finally opening up your mind to my idea here. i never claimed it to be a perfect option. but the fact that it IS an option has me wanting to use it.

it works basically exactly like gary and leafy's idea of tricking the injector constant to think the injectors are smaller but this goes one further, it actually will modify the injector constant the injectors are told to fire upon on the fly. so the issue with e70-e85 is basically gone by using this box because the lamdba sensor will see the change in oxygen content in the fuel, telling the PCM, which in turn sends the signal to the conversion box, which in turn tells the injectors what to do. the problem is, without the lambda sensor working in open loop mode during WOT, one will need to tune for WOT to get the correct AFR via the PCM tuning and wideband on the dyno. once the pcm has the correct tuning for WOT, the conversion box will just add the set amount to whatever the PCM is sending it.

and it will work in closed loop because the lambda sensor only works in rich or lean conditions, not AFR. so what is rich or lean for gas is rich or lean for E85. AFR does not matter because it does not read in AFR., it reads in oxygen content.


Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Tuesday, April 16, 2013 7:16 PM


It's nice to be injected but I love being blown.
Re:
Tuesday, April 16, 2013 7:12 PM
A band aid box is not the proper way to switch to or even begin to tune for it. I've spent a lot of time looking into e85. Unlike you I am looking to make big power. I also am not limited by my ecu like you and it's still a good amount of work to do properly. Stick with your meth injection. Or get a bigger blower to eliminate the heat that is holding you back.
Re:
Tuesday, April 16, 2013 7:18 PM
you are not getting it, sir. i am not trying to say this is a PERFECT solution, just saying it IS a solution! please read!

i have a HEATon m45 supercharger that gets very hot and i am MAXED OUT on the pullies... this thing is pushing tons of heat. E85 will cool the chambers down WAY more than methanol alone will and give me MUCH better potential for power increase.



It's nice to be injected but I love being blown.
Re:
Tuesday, April 16, 2013 7:20 PM
-Z Yaaaa- wrote:

john, thank you for finally opening up your mind to my idea here. i never claimed it to be a perfect option. but the fact that it IS an option has me wanting to use it.

it works basically exactly like gary and leafy's idea of tricking the injector constant to think the injectors are smaller but this goes one further, it actually will modify the injector constant the injectors are told to fire upon on the fly. so the issue with e70-e85 is basically gone by using this box because the lamdba sensor will see the change in oxygen content in the fuel, telling the PCM, which in turn sends the signal to the conversion box, which in turn tells the injectors what to do. the problem is, without the lambda sensor working in open loop mode during WOT, one will need to tune for WOT to get the correct AFR via the PCM tuning and wideband on the dyno. once the pcm has the correct tuning for WOT, the conversion box will just add the set amount to whatever the PCM is sending it.

and it will work in closed loop because the lambda sensor only works in rich or lean conditions, not AFR. so what is rich or lean for gas is rich or lean for E85. AFR does not matter because it does not read in AFR., it reads in oxygen content.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Wednesday, April 17, 2013 11:07 AM


FU Tuning



Re:
Tuesday, April 16, 2013 7:24 PM
I am reading and I'm not seeing it as a solution to anything. You would be creating a nightmare to get running properly. That's if you ever did. Putting a m62 on would be easier to do than try and rig this mess up
Re:
Tuesday, April 16, 2013 7:37 PM
Addicted to meth wrote:

-Z Yaaaa- wrote:

john, thank you for finally opening up your mind to my idea here. i never claimed it to be a perfect option. but the fact that it IS an option has me wanting to use it.

it works basically exactly like gary and leafy's idea of tricking the injector constant to think the injectors are smaller but this goes one further, it actually will modify the injector constant the injectors are told to fire upon on the fly. so the issue with e70-e85 is basically gone by using this box because the lamdba sensor will see the change in oxygen content in the fuel, telling the PCM, which in turn sends the signal to the conversion box, which in turn tells the injectors what to do. the problem is, without the lambda sensor working in open loop mode during WOT, one will need to tune for WOT to get the correct AFR via the PCM tuning and wideband on the dyno. once the pcm has the correct tuning for WOT, the conversion box will just add the set amount to whatever the PCM is sending it.

and it will work in closed loop because the lambda sensor only works in rich or lean conditions, not AFR. so what is rich or lean for gas is rich or lean for E85. AFR does not matter because it does not read in AFR., it reads in oxygen content.


This box does not change the injector constant.


Our cars do not have a lamba sensor.

You realize that the stoich reading for gasoline is different for E85 right?


i dont know how any other way it would make the injector pulse widended other than changing the constant the injectors see (NOT changing the constant in the PCM)

yes, yes they do john! its a boush oxygen sensor.. aka LAMBDA SENSOR.

and yes i do realize it, gas is 14.7, e85 is 9.7... but it does not matter as the oxygen sensor reads oxygen content in the fuel via millivolts that get converted to LAMDBA. it does not matter. .1 lamdba for gas is the same as .1 lamda for e85. rich vs lean here john, not AFR.



It's nice to be injected but I love being blown.
Re:
Tuesday, April 16, 2013 7:39 PM
14.7:1 under boooooost!!!! wrote:

I am reading and I'm not seeing it as a solution to anything. You would be creating a nightmare to get running properly. That's if you ever did. Putting a m62 on would be easier to do than try and rig this mess up


would you please stop assuming things about stuff you obviously have no clue about? this is a gm supercharger that comes with a GM reflash to read the boost and add fuel accordingly via the 2 bar map sensor. this is not a hacked up sc setup custom made to work off something else's car. an m62 would NOT be easier. it would be thousands of dollars MORE for minimal gains at best. it has never been proven to be any better than an m45 for an LD9.



It's nice to be injected but I love being blown.
Re:
Tuesday, April 16, 2013 7:45 PM
Do you know how to read? I know what supercharger you have. I was talking about e85 on your ecu which very obviously does not work without trying this hack job. And yes an m62 would be much easier to mount than trying to rig this "device" to piggy back the ecu. Several thousand dollars?Lol only if you are a sucker.Instead of wasting time and money on this hack look into mega squirt.
Re:
Tuesday, April 16, 2013 7:47 PM
-Z Yaaaa- wrote:

Addicted to meth wrote:

-Z Yaaaa- wrote:

john, thank you for finally opening up your mind to my idea here. i never claimed it to be a perfect option. but the fact that it IS an option has me wanting to use it.

it works basically exactly like gary and leafy's idea of tricking the injector constant to think the injectors are smaller but this goes one further, it actually will modify the injector constant the injectors are told to fire upon on the fly. so the issue with e70-e85 is basically gone by using this box because the lamdba sensor will see the change in oxygen content in the fuel, telling the PCM, which in turn sends the signal to the conversion box, which in turn tells the injectors what to do. the problem is, without the lambda sensor working in open loop mode during WOT, one will need to tune for WOT to get the correct AFR via the PCM tuning and wideband on the dyno. once the pcm has the correct tuning for WOT, the conversion box will just add the set amount to whatever the PCM is sending it.

and it will work in closed loop because the lambda sensor only works in rich or lean conditions, not AFR. so what is rich or lean for gas is rich or lean for E85. AFR does not matter because it does not read in AFR., it reads in oxygen content.


This box does not change the injector constant.


Our cars do not have a lamba sensor.

You realize that the stoich reading for gasoline is different for E85 right?


i dont know how any other way it would make the injector pulse widended other than changing the constant the injectors see (NOT changing the constant in the PCM)

yes, yes they do john! its a boush oxygen sensor.. aka LAMBDA SENSOR.

and yes i do realize it, gas is 14.7, e85 is 9.7... but it does not matter as the oxygen sensor reads oxygen content in the fuel via millivolts that get converted to LAMDBA. it does not matter. .1 lamdba for gas is the same as .1 lamda for e85. rich vs lean here john, not AFR.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Wednesday, April 17, 2013 11:08 AM


FU Tuning




Re:
Tuesday, April 16, 2013 8:32 PM
Your wasting your time John.... Simply put, you can tell some people something, and tell them nothing at the same time.... Brad, go for it... Not my money or time going down the sh!tter....



P&P Tuning
420.5whp / 359.8wtq

Re:
Tuesday, April 16, 2013 8:36 PM
ryan's right, why even bother posting about new things anymore. its obvious the j-body community will forever remain... in the past.



It's nice to be injected but I love being blown.
Re:
Tuesday, April 16, 2013 8:40 PM
Your text to link here...





P&P Tuning
420.5whp / 359.8wtq

Re:
Tuesday, April 16, 2013 9:03 PM
I hardly think that urging you that this is a bad idea that will probably amount to a ton of wasted time and money. There are viable methods for you to run e85. This way is not one of them. But hey I'm always down to watch someone else waste money.
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