Nathaniel wrote:Chris Crossont wrote:
No Spike, I must burst your bubble. I AM going to heaven when I die; I do not have to wait to find out. That would be a cruel God to leave us in the dark like that.
I can only speak for myself however so I am not sure of your direction or anyone else's.
first,who told u ur going to heaven? back in the day priests were telling people if they pay money they can lift their dead relatives from pergatory into heaven. everyone then believed in this. but later the world realized this was untrue. what you "think" garantees u into "heaven" now, may end up being completely wrong. and history has proven and shown this.
...that would be his bible. Churches dont have any say because the bible does not talk about a specific church.... we have tons of churches because we're stupid and self-obsorbed... basically
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secondly, if god is not cruel, why would he CREATE a human homosexual only to let them live and condem them to hell just for being who they were born to be? is that not cruel?
that would be because we sinned. originally God created us perfect, flawless; without death, disease, hate, or whatever... we were created to live in perfect harmony with him for eternity. HOWEVER, adam and eve dropped the ball in the other teams endzone; thus, we are all born in sin. meaning that because we sinned, we all sin...(hate, murder, rape, steal....etc.
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and like was said before. "love thy neighbor love thyself" when technically most christians follow it as it actually read "love thy neighbor love thyself unless they are different than you" why are gays not thy neighbor? and if they are why would u not be accepting of them, since loving thy neighbor = love thyself. and if u do not love thyself or thy neighbor how can u embrace god? and how could he embrace u when u are so selfish with your love?
please try not to generalize "some christians" with all. yes, sadly enough there are people who claim to be Christian but turn around and mock homosexuals, or steal, or have sexual relationship after sexual relationship. HOWEVER, one apple does not spoil the whole tree.
in response to the original post... i think they all make good points. i do have a problem with the second one, it just doesnt read accurately. it should say something like "HANGING out with gays will encourage people to be gay like haning out with tall people..."
anywho...thats my 2cents and some odd change
Godspeed wrote:Nathaniel wrote:Chris Crossont wrote:
No Spike, I must burst your bubble. I AM going to heaven when I die; I do not have to wait to find out. That would be a cruel God to leave us in the dark like that.
I can only speak for myself however so I am not sure of your direction or anyone else's.
first,who told u ur going to heaven? back in the day priests were telling people if they pay money they can lift their dead relatives from pergatory into heaven. everyone then believed in this. but later the world realized this was untrue. what you "think" garantees u into "heaven" now, may end up being completely wrong. and history has proven and shown this.
...that would be his bible. Churches dont have any say because the bible does not talk about a specific church.... we have tons of churches because we're stupid and self-obsorbed... basically
agreed
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secondly, if god is not cruel, why would he CREATE a human homosexual only to let them live and condem them to hell just for being who they were born to be? is that not cruel?
that would be because we sinned. originally God created us perfect, flawless; without death, disease, hate, or whatever... we were created to live in perfect harmony with him for eternity. HOWEVER, adam and eve dropped the ball in the other teams endzone; thus, we are all born in sin. meaning that because we sinned, we all sin...(hate, murder, rape, steal....etc.
ok so adam and eve sinned, but nothing less of a cruel god would take that out on thousands of years of generations of humans. if he keeps CREATING us in sin how can it ever be possible to redeem the human race = no one goes to heaven. if he truely was a mercifull god he would give a new chance to the human race each time a baby is born. but instead he creates children with brain disorders, homosexuality, physical defects
also, if he created us PERFECT then how could have adam and eve "dropped" the ball. if they were perfect they would have been incapable of making a bad/sinfull decision.
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and like was said before. "love thy neighbor love thyself" when technically most christians follow it as it actually read "love thy neighbor love thyself unless they are different than you" why are gays not thy neighbor? and if they are why would u not be accepting of them, since loving thy neighbor = love thyself. and if u do not love thyself or thy neighbor how can u embrace god? and how could he embrace u when u are so selfish with your love?
please try not to generalize "some christians" with all. yes, sadly enough there are people who claim to be Christian but turn around and mock homosexuals, or steal, or have sexual relationship after sexual relationship. HOWEVER, one apple does not spoil the whole tree.
yes i was not directing my comments to ALL christians.
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He created us perfect... but He also gives us all free will........ and the devil doesnt exactly like to sit on the bench....
Matthew 13:24-30:
"... 'The kindom of heaven may be compared to someone who sowed good seed in his field; but while everbody was asleep, an enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and then went away. So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared as well. and the slaves of the householder came and said to him, 'Master, did you now sow good seed in your fiedl?' He answered, 'An enemy has done this.' the slaves said to him, 'Then do you want us to go and gather them [the weeds]? but he replied, 'No; for in gathering the weeds you would uproot the wheat along with them. let both of them grow together until the harvest; and at harvet time i will tell the reapers, Collect the weeds first and brin them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat ino my barn.' "
obvioulsy, the householder is God; the wheat is us, and the weeds are sin...
the way i read into this is that God uses temptations to make us stronger (and to test us) IMO, i wouldnt be as strong as i am now if i had not made some of the mistakes that i have... and just because you or i have some sin around us, does not mean we are an unusable crop....
but how does that compare to a baby being BORN with brain imbalance that makes them homosexual. thats not a temptation, its a biological natural development.
how is god testing a new born baby that will grow up with a brain imbalance that leaves them with no choice but to be gay. its NOT a free will choice based on temptation.
that baby is BORN with no path but to hell because its biological development in its brain.
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the free will issue is all well and good until u get into brian chemistry and the fact that in some people they are not making a choice. being a psychotic within some peoples brains is just as natural and MANDATORY as us breathing or eating.
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hee hee i started and argument!
-Borsty
Godspeed wrote:He created us perfect... but He also gives us all free will........ and the devil doesnt exactly like to sit on the bench....
Right, he created us perfect, then explain birth defects and cancer and stuff, so perfect right??
You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan
(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)
Nathaniel wrote:but how does that compare to a baby being BORN with brain imbalance that makes them homosexual. thats not a temptation, its a biological natural development.
how is god testing a new born baby that will grow up with a brain imbalance that leaves them with no choice but to be gay. its NOT a free will choice based on temptation.
that baby is BORN with no path but to hell because its biological development in its brain.
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the free will issue is all well and good until u get into brian chemistry and the fact that in some people they are not making a choice. being a psychotic within some peoples brains is just as natural and MANDATORY as us breathing or eating.
Chemical Imbalance to cause homosexuality is a point yet to be proven or disproved. It's something that both sides can argue about and still reach the same conclusion. You'll believe there is an Imbalance in chemistry, I'll believe there isn't...and we'll both provide links and other crap to prove our sides....which will never change the thought process of either one of us about it.
"Speak the truth, and leave immediately after"
"The urge to save Humanity is almost ALWAYS a false front for the urge to rule"
"He who knoweth things as they are and not as they are said or seem to be, he truly is wise, and is taught of God more than of men."
The arguement to end it all: If we have free will, and it's our decision to worship God and Jesus or not, then how come God knows everything? He knows the past, present, and future. So that means he knows I'm not going to repent and whether or not anyone will make it to heaven. So there is no free will, God already knows. Therefore, God either doesn't know EVERYTHING or we dont have free will.
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It's official. Crap has certainly hit the fan....
I still maintain we are all going to hell.
Frank Serpico: The reality is that we do not wash our own laundry - it just gets dirtier.
^^So be nice to me since i will be walking around hell with satan as my chauffer...
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The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
mikec2003 wrote:
Right, he created us perfect, then explain birth defects and cancer and stuff, so perfect right??
We are no longer perfect. The story goes when Eve ate the apple, sin and misery was brought into the world. The garden was destroyed, so on and so on. Being a Christian that believes in evolution, you'd have to debate someone else on this part.
Nathaniel wrote:but how does that compare to a baby being BORN with brain imbalance that makes them homosexual. thats not a temptation, its a biological natural development.
how is god testing a new born baby that will grow up with a brain imbalance that leaves them with no choice but to be gay. its NOT a free will choice based on temptation.
that baby is BORN with no path but to hell because its biological development in its brain.
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the free will issue is all well and good until u get into brian chemistry and the fact that in some people they are not making a choice. being a psychotic within some peoples brains is just as natural and MANDATORY as us breathing or eating.
I wish I had an answer for your simple question as to people being homosexual. I've never been satisified myself with explanations given to me. However, the
best reason I can give you is that we're all driven by all kinds of temptations to sin. Fact is, lying, lust, use the Lord's name in vain are all bigger and more common than homosexuality. It's even safe to say that many of us violate some of the ten commands more times in a day than homosexuals have sex in a week.
James Larsen wrote:The arguement to end it all: If we have free will, and it's our decision to worship God and Jesus or not, then how come God knows everything? He knows the past, present, and future. So that means he knows I'm not going to repent and whether or not anyone will make it to heaven. So there is no free will, God already knows. Therefore, God either doesn't know EVERYTHING or we dont have free will.
"Everything" could also mean God knows all the possibilities, not the outcomes specifically. Otherwise, you're right, wouldn't make sense.
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God doesnt say homosexuality is wrong, the christian bible does. 'god' did not write it. the christian religion is an explanation of things people couldnt understand or explain 2000 years ago, it is now outdated. for example, science disproves the bible when it comes to things like evolution, only truely igorant people can still argue that evolution has not and is not happening.
i know that post took things a little off topic but the point was christianity and many of the things written in the bible are outdated and simply don't apply anymore, nobody on this earth ultimately knows any more than anyone else when it comes to this stuff, and no one can say whether or not homosexuality is 'wrong'. and by the way homosexuality occurs in nature. oh and nathaniel was right about a perfect adam and eve not being able to sin. anyone who argues they did simply does not really understand what it means to be 'perfect'. absolutely no error whatsoever.
Dirty Muffins (Event) wrote:
U da man!
lol not really i didnt write it i just thought it was funny.
i dont have a side on gay marriage really
im very neutral when it comes to politics. maybe cause i really dont care.
-Borsty
People born as homosexuals were deprived of certain male hormones during incubation that cause them to desire women. Why would god do that if homosexuality will send you to hell?
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Madjack wrote:Like I said before, building an engine like ours (2.2 or 2200) is a painstaking chore , since there is so few custom made parts. It's frustrating to me too, but that's what I like about doing this engine, it's the challenge.
[quote=Keeper of the Light™]^^So be nice to me since i will be walking around hell with satan as my chauffer...
Meh.. I'll never die then. Satan doesn't want a pissed off Irish in hell... WITH NO GUINNESS!!!
Jbody2nr: I don't know about that, but the chemical imbalance isn't always deprivation of one, it could be extra of one but the other in proper amount. We don't know yet... There are studies that are gauging the "normal" amounts, and what composition will alter the sexual orientation of the fetus after it is born and matures.
Chamillionaire: True, but the Choice side has little more than personal idealogy to back it up, while the Chemical imbalance has at the very least pre-liminary evidence proving the theory (But.. we've discussed this a while ago... I'm not going to make issue of it).
Either way, gay people exist for one reason or the other, and it's up to us to either accept or reject them. Moving the morality issue aside and focusing on the issue at hand, Calling it gay "marriage" turned it into a hot button issue, and instantly polarised it, calling it what it actually is, "Civil Union" doesn't differentiate it from the many marriages that are performed between inter-faith or non-denominational couples.
Godsspeed: Not to make it contentious, but where is it written exactly about "man shall not lay down with man as he does with women?" I know about Soddom & Gommorah, but I don't think the ultimate moral of that story is to not be gay...
I seem to remember that it's in Ezekiel, but I'm not sure.
Also, (again, I'm just trying to get info, not start anything) what bearing does homosexuality have to the 10 commandments, the golden rule or Jesus' other teachings? I'm going on memory here, but I think that most of the anti-homosexual writings are in the old testament. I can't see Jesus getting ferclempt about what other consenting adults do on their own time in their own bedrooms. It's been a VERY long time since I last read the Bible, but I figure Jesus wasn't a judgmental person.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
^^ homosexuality isn't a breach of one of the ten commandments, but those aren't the only rules, just the most important ones. It isn't the biggest sin in the land, American's conservatives just make it sound that way.
Put it this way, I was watching CNN about a year ago and some anti-gay protester was caught on camera saying something to the effect of .."Jesus Christ don't they know they're going to hell?!" Not realizing he broke a bigger rule than any gay may have broken that night.
BTW
Lots of arguments from both sides of theology re: homosexuality...
http://www.stonewallrevisited.com/issues/marco2.html
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Its not always about what the bible says. IF god created us he intended sex to be for procreation not lust or male on male or female female action. Homosexuals cannot produce children and IF god exists then thats not how he would want it. Why? Because he created a male and a female for a reason. To make babies.
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Madjack wrote:Like I said before, building an engine like ours (2.2 or 2200) is a painstaking chore , since there is so few custom made parts. It's frustrating to me too, but that's what I like about doing this engine, it's the challenge.
People seem to forget that God created us once, not each individual. God did not directly creat the child with this or that disorder, we did that. When Eve sinned it was like adding just a touch of Chaos into the order. The dis-order spreads slowly throughout society until all things are corrupted and the system must be renewed. This is why there is imperfection in God's perfect creations, this is why we continue to sin, this is why as our population increases so does the level of chaos and disorder.
To those who would argue "God is the potter" and "god new you before you were born" that is true. God transends time and therefore can see all moments. That is not to take away from free will though because even though God can see all moments that does not mean that they cannot change. God can see the path you are on right now, but if you utilize your free will and change your path, God can also see that new reality.
The Bible states not that homosexuality itself is a sin, but that homosexual activity is sinful. This one is tough, but I believe that we all have our tests and hardships in life. Homosexual people have a very large hurtle, but one that they can overcome. If they wish to be without homosexual sin then they must remain celebate. That is why you find so many amongst the priesthood, because a forced celebacy is easier. I have trouble with this one because it seems to me that sexual desires are very very base instinct. The hardest emotions to combat. Imagine if you were never to look upon anyone with desire. Never notice that pretty girl or handsome man. If the only way you could remain without sin would be to never have lust of any kind, ever. Unthinkable for most. I don't believe God is cruel so I have a very hard time with this one. Good thing I'm not gay, I'd be really messed up.
The other question I wonder sometimes is; were there homosexuals in any "stone-age" tribal peoples? Did "civilization" somehow create gay people? I just can't imagine "gay" cavemen
PAX
Hahahaha wrote:
The other question I wonder sometimes is; were there homosexuals in any "stone-age" tribal peoples? Did "civilization" somehow create gay people? I just can't imagine "gay" cavemen
PAX
Well, our idea of cavemen is at best highly inaccurate. We really have no idea.
But I do know there were gays in some of the Native American tribes. They were treated as women and even allowed to marry.
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[quote=Keeper of the Light™]All are valid points...
8 is scary because we seem to be heading there.
^^^So freaking true!!!!
spikej wrote:Chris Crossont wrote:t8romE wrote:GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:Jesus also said "love thy neighbour, love thyself."
That's easy enough.
We are all going to hell. Just depends on how fast you want to get there.
Please speak for yourself as I am not going to hell. I grant you that most people will but not nearly all.
Sorry to burst your bubble Chris but you don't know that. Nobody knows what the afterlife is like until they get their. now lets get back on topic.
Hey isn't it rumored to have XX amount of virgins in the after-life. lol
THE POLITICALLY INCORRECT ONE.
there are "gay" in almost all species. cavemen apes dogs cows whales...
being gay is not always a act of LUST. the same way when a man falls in LOVE with a woman. except in a gay their brain tells them they have to fall in love with a same sex person. there is no difference in the persons thought process. so if u say homosexual behavior is sinful then hetero would have to be as well. since both brains work exactly the same. ones biological chemistry says to love a opposite sex while the other says to love the same sex.
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Since being gay is a sin in the bible, it is a choice. We can be forgiven for our sins by asking the Lord into our lives, and turn from our fleshly desires to everlasting life. I've seen life from this side, and I know why it's truth.
Smile, Jesus loves you!!!!! <><
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