It has been shown by study after study that vegatarians and vegans do not live as long as omnivours.

We did not create anything, especially if you take the God angle. Find proof of the origin of the domesticated cattle beast.. Just try.

You have been brainwashed into thinking that animal life is just as valuable as human life. Gimme a break.. Let's say for a second yuou are on your lawn with your child. Your cat or dog runs into the street and your chjild chases. Which name comes out of you mouth firts.. Who do you call back? If you call the pet back first there is something seriously wrong with you.

Human beings need animal protein to survive. It's a fact.

I wear leather because I eat beef. I don't want the hides going to waste.

Your view of the Bible is so bent I don't know where to begin with you. Let's just leave it as.. In the begining, there was nothing, then God made stuf, then God made us, then God told us to use the stuff he made and gave to us.

You like peaches? Do you have any idea how many rabbits are killed each year so they don't eat the bark of the peach trees?

If you want a food that has no animal impact.. well, I don't think there are any, so good luck with that.

I bet you wear Nikes or some other sweat shop brand, but not leather... So silly, so absolutely misinformed.

99% of agro-food operations are not cruel. Most farmers put the welfare of their livestock above their own. It's called beef husbandry for a reason.

PAX

And the shepards watch the carrots by night

BTW the correct translation of the quote from the bible is "Thall shall not do muder unto another" No where in there does it say we can't have burger.

I agree animal testing is very wrong and so is killing them just for the hell of it. But I'm sorry I'm gonna keep on eating AND enjoying meat on a daily basis. If Cows weren't ment to be food then why do they just stand there and let themselves be killed? No they Know they're here for two reasons.........STEAK's and HAMBURGERS!

Obviously you are a vegaterien and there is nothing in the world wrong with that. But I also think there is nothing wrong with eating meat either.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

Hahahaha wrote:It has been shown by study after study that vegatarians and vegans do not live as long as omnivours.

please show a single one. that isnt some sort of commentary piece.

Quote:


We did not create anything, especially if you take the God angle. Find proof of the origin of the domesticated cattle beast.. Just try.

so cows were farm animals before there were farms? dont think so. WE turned them INTO farm animals that we decided we can kill and eat.

Quote:


You have been brainwashed into thinking that animal life is just as valuable as human life. Gimme a break.. Let's say for a second yuou are on your lawn with your child. Your cat or dog runs into the street and your chjild chases. Which name comes out of you mouth firts.. Who do you call back? If you call the pet back first there is something seriously wrong with you.

go tell:
Albert Einstein
Coretta Scott King Martin L.K., Jr's wife
H.G. Wells
Henry Ford
Leonardo da Vinci
Mohandas Ghandi
Queen Sophia Queen of Spain
Ralph Waldo Emerson
Vincent Van Gogh

nearly the entire country of thailand(official religion of thailand is buhdism = 360 million Buddhists ), parts of india, hindus and jains (7 million Jains in India)

Muslim sects such as the Sufis and Bahai's


that they have all been brainwashed.............

...

Quote:


Human beings need animal protein to survive. It's a fact.

%100 incorrect.

humans need PROTEIN biologically, not ANIMAL protein.

Proteins from plant sources, such as peas, beans, nuts and grain in cereals and bread, are known as partially complete proteins, because they are lacking in one or more of the essential amino acids. Those who do not eat meat, fish or dairy products (vegans) can avoid becoming deficient in any one amino acid, simply by consuming a diet containing a wide variety of plant proteins.


and guess what the human body needs alot les protein than some people liek you to believe.

a single piece of whoel wheat toast with peanut butter on it fullfills yoru daily required amount of protein.

Quote:

Your view of the Bible is so bent I don't know where to begin with you. Let's just leave it as.. In the begining, there was nothing, then God made stuf, then God made us, then God told us to use the stuff he made and gave to us.

actually the bible states that before the flood he gave us only grains and berries to eat. it was only in dire circumstances after the flood in which all vegetation was destroyed did he allow the eating of animals. and even then only allowed noah to eat animals with out blood ie clams and a few other things.

im glad u think that my view is BENT on a subject that is MEANT to be interpreted and has been interpreted in different ways for thousands of years.

Quote:

You like peaches? Do you have any idea how many rabbits are killed each year so they don't eat the bark of the peach trees?

actually i do not liek peaches at all. but that is besides the point. the point is minimizing your environmental foot print.

Quote:


If you want a food that has no animal impact.. well, I don't think there are any, so good luck with that.

all food has some sort of environmental impact no matter what. even if it is somethign as little as insects. nothign anyoen anywhere can do about that. however, why would attempting to minimize violence and killing be a bad thing liek ur trying to make it out to be?

Quote:


I bet you wear Nikes or some other sweat shop brand, but not leather... So silly, so absolutely misinformed.

no actually i dont. ive gone through all these stupid ass questions with person after person that tries to bring in outside issues to discredit my beliefs. and what do they find out? that omg i actually stick to my beliefs on all sorts of issues.

i do not buy leather or animal products
i do not buy from companies who are known to use sweatshops
i do not support outsourcing to outside countries for tech support for us companies
i do not by any products tested on animals
when i donate to organizations that may do animal testing i specifically earmark my donations to a specific area of research where no animal testing is going on.


but regardless it wouldnt matter if i did those thigns or not. if i do 1 or all of them. the fact is I am attempting to minimize my footprint. there is NOTHING wrong with that. and just because i dont do 1 thing doesnt mean i HAVE to not do another. its not possible for one person to fight all the battles and wrong doing of all the world at the same time.

1 is better than 0

PERIOD

so i honestly dont know who ur calling misinformed.

Quote:


99% of agro-food operations are not cruel. Most farmers put the welfare of their livestock above their own. It's called beef husbandry for a reason.

you obviously have NO experience with U.S. Factory farming/industrialized farming i can list practice out of practice used by industrial farmers within the beef/poultry/fish market that are cruel. not to mention fur/wool



seriously folks i have no problem debating with you. i have done it a million times. at least gather some accurate info first however. like gam does and did. and we had a great debate. and i learned that the canadian government/farming industry is FAR better than the US.




:::Creative Draft Image Manipulation Forum:::

Jackalope wrote:

I agree animal testing is very wrong and so is killing them just for the hell of it. But I'm sorry I'm gonna keep on eating AND enjoying meat on a daily basis. If Cows weren't ment to be food then why do they just stand there and let themselves be killed? No they Know they're here for two reasons.........STEAK's and HAMBURGERS!

and thats your poragotive. andi accept that. and i have mine. and its all good!

Quote:

Obviously you are a vegaterien and there is nothing in the world wrong with that. But I also think there is nothing wrong with eating meat either.

thanx man that is a very manly thing to say and shows u have character, that even tho someone has totally different views that you disagree with, there is nothing wrong with that. and your gunna stay with your current ones.

i appreciate u keeping it civil and open.







:::Creative Draft Image Manipulation Forum:::

Sorry, it appears you are not the typical vegetarian wack-job that I encounter.

No, I have little to no experience with the US agri-food industry, but I can remember only one case of animal cruelty here in my local farming area. It was a corporate farm that went broke and abaondoned the farm, with the animals in the barn. The holding company that took over did not inspect the operation for a month. You can guess what they found. That is discusting and one reason to hate factory farms.

PAX

im sorry u have had many experiences with uninformed vegetarians. i sincerely wish u hadnt.

and id hope that if u had had experience in US factory farming ud disapprove of it.

things like
-massive overloads of antibiotics on a daily basis(sending the evolutionary mutation of a virus/bacteria into hyperdrive until it eventually can not be stopped by the misused antibiotics)
-massive use of growth hormones causing chickens as they grow to grow so quickly that some of their legs snap or their organs burst because they are growing faster than their body is makign room for the organs

those are MAJOR issues in the U.S. both for animals AND humans at the same time.

the growth hormones that are given to the animals eventually gets into you. a few years back europe started to see LOTS of cases of newborn-3 year girls havign breasts. their research concluded it could very likely be due to the hormones that were in baby food that was being imported from the US. europe decide to go against the TWO (world trade organization) and NOT import american beef. as a result they are payign MILLIONS of dollars per year to try and protect their population from these substances.

while the US just continues on in the use of these hormones.

for awhile organic milk had labels that said HORMONE free. which was %100 true. but big beef corps decided to sue these organic companies (organic milk sales in the past 2 years have been rising DRASTICALLY) saying that it is unfare to advertise that they use no hormone, because that makes their milk look bad. and guess what, the us courts rules against organic milk. now even though organic milk does NOT have ANY hormones in it, they are nto allowed to say that on the cartons.

how in the world does that make any sense?

maybe sometime soon these things will start effecting the everyday american liek ti did in europe. and then maybe people will start caring.

even if they wish to continue eating meat, the practices of factory industrialized farming must stop.




:::Creative Draft Image Manipulation Forum:::

I don't know enough about the bible regarding what we're supposed to eat, but I do know that anytime anyone starts quoting the bible what they're really saying is that if you don't agree with their point you're going against God. Taken to extremes, this is the justification for shooting up abortion clinics, animal test facilities or anything else deemed "against God". If you're a vegan and you're happy about it, good for you. I'm not a vegan and take exception to the implication that Christians are supposed to only eat twigs and berries. Is the Pope a vegan? John Paul wasn't.

I had hamburgers for dinner tonight, and I don't know if the cows were raised on a factory farm, a regular farm or if it was someone's pet named Sally. It was dinner, and it was good.





John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto

I don't think you are wrong to minimize your foot print. At the end of the day though it is still your beliefs and not mine. It is wrong for you to tell me I am wrong for what I do.



Cardomain|Myspace

I don't think it's possible to have milk that is 100% hormone free. Afterall the cattle themselves do produce hormones like almost all animals. No homones added would be a more approprite label.

That may be the reason right there, not sure.

PAX

No prob Nat! Hey, I was just curious when did you stop eating meat? No this is not so I can turn anything around I just wanted to know what made you decide to stop. My
youngest daughter doesn't like meat at all and in fact even tho she's only 9 she has mentioned vegaterien stuff before so I was just curious as to weather you were the same way that she is now. She does eat meat but she makes it well known she's not big on the idea. And just the other day she was telling me about a school project were they wright letters to big companies and try to get a response, Well she is wighting to some cosmetics company and is asking them if they hurt animals to make their make up. I'm very proud of her for at such a young age to be THAT conscience about the brand of make up she wears ( not much she is only 9 ) that it not harm animals
to see if the lip gloss causes any problems. Besides when you think about it animal testing is about the single stupidest thing they could do. Did you know that if Louie
Pastor had tested PENNICILIEN on a guinnie pig it wouldn't exist because it kills them almost instantly. And spraying crap into a bunnies eyes to see if it hurts them is equally as stupid as thier eyes are so different then ours that you can in no way make a comparison. Oh well I guess if more 9 year olds thought like her then all this animal testing may just disappear someday.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

Jackalope wrote:No prob Nat! Hey, I was just curious when did you stop eating meat? No this is not so I can turn anything around I just wanted to know what made you decide to stop. My
youngest daughter doesn't like meat at all and in fact even tho she's only 9 she has mentioned vegaterien stuff before so I was just curious as to weather you were the same way that she is now. She does eat meat but she makes it well known she's not big on the idea.

My girlfriend went veg at about that age. somewhere between 8-10. she saw a special on TV and then researched it herself. she has now been veg for about 10-11 years.

I went veg about 2 years ago. to be honest with you, i never thought about where my food came from, and i if i did, i had these illogical notions of how farms are run and how the animals are killed. I didnt know about all the health effects either.

as i learned about industrialized factory farminig was totally flabbergasted. so my view of meat changed from something i thought was wonderfull and couldnt get enough of, to something i could barely stand to look at anymore because all i could think of is the extreme pain/suffering/violence caused just to have a small piece of meat on a plate.

then after the shock of how factory farms work i started to research other practices and learned about hormone/antibiotic usuage/misuse.

then i took multiple nutrition classes to learn more about the bodies needs.

then i went to mutple economy/free trade/globilization seminars where i learned about the farming industry/fishing coorporate globilization and all the horrible things that have happened with that.

from the moment i first came to actually realize i did not want to support such cruelties nor put in such unhealthy products into myself i have craved information. and i have been taking every opportunity to gain more.

also eastern and buhdist teachings have helped me alot in recent years of my life with things i have had to go through or experienced or wanted to change in my life.

Quote:


And just the other day she was telling me about a school project were they wright letters to big companies and try to get a response, Well she is wighting to some cosmetics company and is asking them if they hurt animals to make their make up. I'm very proud of her for at such a young age to be THAT conscience about the brand of make up she wears ( not much she is only 9 ) that it not harm animals
to see if the lip gloss causes any problems.

it trully is amazing. i did not have that kind of awareness when i was 9. when i was 9 however i cant say i had a lot of exposure to people talking about animal testing/veg diets. who knows maybe if i had, i would have went veg earlier in my life.

i am very happy for your little girl. she is already more intelligent/aware than many adults are.

Quote:


Besides when you think about it animal testing is about the single stupidest thing they could do. Did you know that if Louie
Pastor had tested PENNICILIEN on a guinnie pig it wouldn't exist because it kills them almost instantly. And spraying crap into a bunnies eyes to see if it hurts them is equally as stupid as thier eyes are so different then ours that you can in no way make a comparison. Oh well I guess if more 9 year olds thought like her then all this animal testing may just disappear someday.

awesome point. and im glad we totally agree on the animal testing issue.






:::Creative Draft Image Manipulation Forum:::

Well all that research may be a touch tooo much for her to try and tackle right now but thanks.

And it would deff appear we are in total agreement about animal testing and I would venture to guess animal cruelty in general as well. I can not stand someone whos hurts animals just for the hell of it. Now true I have killed a dog with a shotgun before but that was because it bit the sh-t out of my leg!! So I went and got my 12gauge and
put 2 rounds into his furry little ass!! Hey I saved animal control from haveing to do it right?

So it would be your opinion then I should encorage her to be a vegaterin. Now I don't
demand she eat meat but its there in case she wants it. I feel this is the best way to
deal with it, You know let HER decide.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

Jackalope wrote:Besides when you think about it animal testing is about the single stupidest thing they could do. Did you know that if Louie Pastor had tested PENNICILIEN on a guinnie pig it wouldn't exist because it kills them almost instantly. And spraying crap into a bunnies eyes to see if it hurts them is equally as stupid as thier eyes are so different then ours that you can in no way make a comparison. Oh well I guess if more 9 year olds thought like her then all this animal testing may just dis
sappear someday.

Pennicillen: Was disocvered by (a canuck!) Alexander Fleming. It was tested on a dog with an infection that would have killed it eventually. Before that, Honey was used to dress a wound.

Louis Pasteur invented the pasuterisation process that killed bacteriae in milk.

I think you're thinking of Insulin, which required the removal of several dog's pancreas' and testing of serums on them to see if the blood sugar levels stabilised. \





Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

WHOOPS !!! DID I ever mix that up!! Damn recreational drug use back in high school!
( Jack shakes fist at the sky !! )

Anyway Gam thanks for the correction and YES if pennicillen had been tested originaly on guinnie pigs it would never have made it cause it kills them. ( That much I do remember )

And NOPE I sure wasn't thinking of insulin. I actualy had no idea how it was developed and basicly never real gave it any thought at all.

Animal testing in a medical sence is completely different then for cosmetic testing and THAT is what I'm strongly against. You can't tell me that your so ugly that the killing and maiming of harmless little animals is justified. If your THAT ugly try a plastic surgen cause aint no amount of blush gonna help your ass. ( No GAM this is not directed at you personaly I'm just saying in general. )




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

Jackalope wrote:Well all that research may be a touch tooo much for her to try and tackle right now but thanks.

And it would deff appear we are in total agreement about animal testing and I would venture to guess animal cruelty in general as well. I can not stand someone whos hurts animals just for the hell of it. Now true I have killed a dog with a shotgun before but that was because it bit the sh-t out of my leg!! So I went and got my 12gauge and
put 2 rounds into his furry little ass!! Hey I saved animal control from haveing to do it right?

So it would be your opinion then I should encorage her to be a vegaterin. Now I don't
demand she eat meat but its there in case she wants it. I feel this is the best way to
deal with it, You know let HER decide.

oh sorry if u thought i meant to tell her to do all the research i did lol

i was just giving u what i did. definitely wouldnt expect a 9 year old to do that kind of research

theres nothing wrong with letting her decide at all. that be your best bet. just dont make her feel "bad" or "weird" our outkasted and social gatherings because of her beliefs. make her feel welcome and be acceptive of her thoughts on the subject and her personal choice. if she has these strong feelings now and then is made to feel odd or outkasted by her family because of it, it could actually cause some phsychological issues later in life.

just be as open with her about it as possible. and like i said dont make her feel weird about not eating meat. let her know that her saving animals in that way is a good thing.

maybe even soemtimes cook yoru regular meal, but include a big dish of something good that is vegetarian, that way she can participate in dinner without feeling like she doesnt have much choices in food.

id be more than happy to give u recipes or things u can buy at the store that are great.

it sounds liek your pretty open with everything so im sure you are and will do a fine job with her.

good luck.




:::Creative Draft Image Manipulation Forum:::

also, if she does decide to not eat meat at all anymore, you should be aware of the types of foods she needs to eat.

for b12 soymilk is your best bet. like i said 1 glass is %50 daily reqd amount. or a suplement

protein, a single piece of whole wheat toast with peanut butter is your daily reqd amount. also most all meat analouges (fake meats) have alot of protein in them.


being extremely healthy on a veg diet is easy. u just gotta know what ur body needs

and as i said before u can ask me any questions u like either in here or email me. im always open and will help best i can.




:::Creative Draft Image Manipulation Forum:::

Nathaniel O'Flaherty wrote:
and id hope that if u had had experience in US factory farming ud disapprove of it.

things like
-massive overloads of antibiotics on a daily basis(sending the evolutionary mutation of a virus/bacteria into hyperdrive until it eventually can not be stopped by the misused antibiotics)
-massive use of growth hormones causing chickens as they grow to grow so quickly that some of their legs snap or their organs burst because they are growing faster than their body is makign room for the organs

Well thanks for attempting to destroy my family's way of life.

My Father and his father and his father have been farmers for over 80 years, and it has been within the past 18 years that we have gone totaly to layer chickens.

I will tell you right now that you have been mis-informed by PETA...some or most of what they say is slightly true, but all of it, EVERY LAST BIT, is skewed. I help my dad raise 192,000 chickens. And I will be the first to complety destroy any myths that have been put into you by PETA

You like eggs right? Do you eat eggs? Well if you do I suppose that you want your birds to have a wonderful life out on the farm, waking up every morning pecking at the ground to pick up some organic feed right? Well let me be the first to tell you that if you want that, I hope you're ready to suffer from serious Salmonelia poisoning.

Let me explain, chickes are held in cages, in barns that are climate controled 365 days a year, and their guano is kept away from them, at least 2 inches, below slotted cage floors, becuase chickens peck at the ground, it's what they do, they are birds. And whats on the ground if they arn't on slotted floors? @!#$, you wouldn't eat your own crap now would you? See they arn't the brighest birds in the world, and Salmonelia is a bad disease, you can die from it, and its in chicken crap. And what ever is in the food that they eat goes into the eggs and meat...there ya go salmonelia poisioning.

Now about the cages, cause im sure that your gonna freak about that. It's purely for the pecking order. You have always heard about it, we as humans use it, the strongest pick on the weakest and then the weak die, spreading disease, killing more. Well we put them in cages to help with the pecking order, birds that are not as agressive woudn't get any food, becuase I dont have the time to hand feed almost 200,000 birds, to make sure that they are "equal" even though they arn't, survival of the fittest once again.

Now the meds, PETA needs to do is resarch, poultry doesn't have a very strong immune system, and all vaccinations are done after the chickens have been sexed. Growth hormens are used, yes, becuase you would have to take even more birds lives to get the same ammount of food, so what would you rather have? More birds killed, or some birds with broken legs?

Not too mention, the reason the H5 and H7 strains of Avian Influenza are spreading so quckly in Asia and Eastern Europe is becuase the birds arn't confined, so one gets it and its spreads it to another, and it spreads and doesn't quit spreading, becuase the bird's arn't confined to one area, where in a barn it would spred only to that barn and it could either be vaccinated or culled, depending on the sevarity of the disease, and believe me they would try to vaccinate every damn bird before they gas the damn thing.

Just to let you know, my dad get $0.09 a dozen for every doezen he produces, he loves chickens always has, he was in FFA and was with poultry judging. One time while weighing birds, I put one back into its cage and it had a heart attack, it broke my heart, this bird that I had just been holding died in my hands, it just got to stressed and died, and you say were heartless...I know there are bad farmers out there, but they are out there just like bad cops, there are a few that spoil it for everyone. I know that some farms arn't good, they just arn't but don't quit eating animal products becuase you've been told some half-truths that are used to make the lives of farmers even more difficult, It's hard enough for people in this line of work to make a living...they dont need people like you sticking your @!#$ nose into something that has been working for hundreds of thousands of years.

Oh yeah, @!#$ PETA

bravo! ^^

I don't like eggs. I'm sorry.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

firstly id liek to give the definition of factory farming to everyone. this is from wikipedia

Factory farming can refer to any intensive commercial form of agriculture that employs extreme growing techniques to produce the greatest ouput in the least space, usually with heavy use of agrichemicals and veterinary drugs.

Quote:

Adam Asmus wrote:

Nathaniel O'Flaherty wrote:
and id hope that if u had had experience in US factory farming ud disapprove of it.

things like
-massive overloads of antibiotics on a daily basis(sending the evolutionary mutation of a virus/bacteria into hyperdrive until it eventually can not be stopped by the misused antibiotics)
-massive use of growth hormones causing chickens as they grow to grow so quickly that some of their legs snap or their organs burst because they are growing faster than their body is makign room for the organs

Well thanks for attempting to destroy my family's way of life.

My Father and his father and his father have been farmers for over 80 years, and it has been within the past 18 years that we have gone totaly to layer chickens.

I will tell you right now that you have been mis-informed by PETA...some or most of what they say is slightly true, but all of it, EVERY LAST BIT, is skewed. I help my dad raise 192,000 chickens. And I will be the first to complety destroy any myths that have been put into you by PETA

PETA is not the place i go to for all my info. secondly, they are not myths. i will continue on=

Quote:


You like eggs right? Do you eat eggs? Well if you do I suppose that you want your birds to have a wonderful life out on the farm, waking up every morning pecking at the ground to pick up some organic feed right? Well let me be the first to tell you that if you want that, I hope you're ready to suffer from serious Salmonelia poisoning.

i am VEGAN.
no
-dairy
-eggs
-meat
-animal products

so no i do not like eggs and no i do not eat them.

Quote:


Let me explain, chickes are held in cages, in barns that are climate controled 365 days a year, and their guano is kept away from them, at least 2 inches, below slotted cage floors, becuase chickens peck at the ground, it's what they do, they are birds. And whats on the ground if they arn't on slotted floors? @!#$, you wouldn't eat your own crap now would you? See they arn't the brighest birds in the world, and Salmonelia is a bad disease, you can die from it, and its in chicken crap. And what ever is in the food that they eat goes into the eggs and meat...there ya go salmonelia poisioning.

yeah ur right, they are kept in cages.

in which they live their entire lives correct? that is until u send them to the slaughterhouse.

the way you are keeping your chickens in cages where they do not have enough room to barely even walk causes them to quickly develop muscle atrophy.

and after 1-2 years of an egg laying hens life because of the increased egg production due to growth hormones develop what is called cage layer fatigue. where the bones get weak a brittle due to high egg production and little to no excersize and movement.

and what about forced molting? i hope to god u dont do that, but im gunna guess u do because it is a common practice introduced by industrialized farming

forced-molting is when a farmer withholds food from the chickens for up to 2 weeks. water as well can be withheld for days. The chickens loose one-third of their body weight . Those who survive this shock to their system will start a new cycle of egg production.

and you do that because a natural molting cycle is abotu 4 months, and of course factory farmers cant be bothered with an animal goign through its regular cycles right?

what size are your cages? typical is 12 inches by 20 inches(240 sq. in.) a single chicken takes up abotu 100sq in. so even if there was only 1 chicken in each cage they would barely have enough room to fully extend their wings. but of course u dont have 1 chicken per cage do you? more like 3, 4...5 even.

Quote:

Now about the cages, cause im sure that your gonna freak about that. It's purely for the pecking order. You have always heard about it, we as humans use it, the strongest pick on the weakest and then the weak die, spreading disease, killing more. Well we put them in cages to help with the pecking order, birds that are not as agressive woudn't get any food, becuase I dont have the time to hand feed almost 200,000 birds, to make sure that they are "equal" even though they arn't, survival of the fittest once again.

i talked about the cages in the above... but ill go on.

so instead of having the birds all together where the more aggressive birds will fight with the submissive ones, u think its better to stick 3-5 of them in a cage together? what happens when u have 1 agressive bird and 2 submissive birds? theres a fight, but the submissive birds can not back down. they have no where to go and they end up getting pecked to death.

but i guess thats a much better idea...

Quote:



Now the meds, PETA needs to do is resarch, poultry doesn't have a very strong immune system, and all vaccinations are done after the chickens have been sexed.

meds are of course needed when ur dealing with such high numbers of animals all kept in tight facilities. especially when those animals are animals with already weak immune systems.

however the answer isnt to over medicate them so that they can artificially survive conditions they shouldnt be able to. the answer would be to have them in conditions that they can actually NATURALLY survive. if u have to constantly give meds to an animal to artificially make it able to withstand conditions it shouldnt be in, ur doing something wrong.

Quote:

Growth hormens are used, yes, becuase you would have to take even more birds lives to get the same ammount of food, so what would you rather have? More birds killed, or some birds with broken legs?

i would take neither choice. how is that possible?

its very possible, when ur top motive isnt profit.

instead of just making less meat per chicken by growing them naturally, youd rather pump them all full of hormones so they grow unnaturally larger, to the point where many of their bodies collapse. then in turn those high amounts of hormones are then transfered into our human bodies. yes chicken growth hormones going into a human body... sound healthy? its not, and as i explained before europe currently has a ban on all imported us BEEF because they were finding newborns and infants growing breasts due to hormones in beef that was used in imported baby food.

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Just to let you know, my dad get $0.09 a dozen for every doezen he produces, he loves chickens always has, he was in FFA and was with poultry judging. One time while weighing birds, I put one back into its cage and it had a heart attack, it broke my heart, this bird that I had just been holding died in my hands, it just got to stressed and died, and you say were heartless...

ok so im glad your heart "broke" when a chicken died in your hands, but apparently it does not phase u much. since u have no problem at the end of your layer chickens efficient egg producing cycle has ended, sending all 192,000 of them to be taken to a slaughter house where they are further mishandled and then killed and boiled.

why doesnt THAT break your heart? oh because it makes u money.

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I know there are bad farmers out there, but they are out there just like bad cops, there are a few that spoil it for everyone. I know that some farms arn't good, they just arn't but don't quit eating animal products becuase you've been told some half-truths that are used to make the lives of farmers even more difficult, It's hard enough for people in this line of work to make a living...they dont need people like you sticking your @!#$ nose into something that has been working for hundreds of thousands of years.

first of all, ANY factory/industrialized farm uses practices which are disgusting and uneeded.

i did not quit eating animals because i was told some half truths. maybe if your read the whole thread you would see my reasons.

it called having compassion for all life. something u obviously do not have if you are apparently proudly working on a factory/industrialized farm.

i already gave these figures but u obviously need them again to realize that not eating meat is not some load of BS that wacko lieing PETA facist made up.

Albert Einstein
Coretta Scott King Martin L.K., Jr's wife
H.G. Wells
Henry Ford
Leonardo da Vinci
Mohandas Ghandi
Queen Sophia Queen of Spain
Ralph Waldo Emerson
Vincent Van Gogh

all vegetarian


nearly the entire country of thailand(official religion of thailand is buhdism = 360 million Buddhists ), parts of india, hindus and jains (7 million Jains in India)
Muslim sects such as the Sufis and Bahai's

ALL VEGETARIAN for THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of years some hundreds of thousands of years.


and i REALLLY dont know what you are saying has been working for thousands of years.

factory farming did not even get realized until the industrial revolution hence the name industrialized farming/factory farming.

the industrial revolution in the US was not in full swing until between the 1860's to 1890's and later

so at MOST factory farmign has only been around for 135 years. but apparently to you it has been working for THOUSANDS of years...








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that post did not show like that in preview. hopefully this one is correct.

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firstly id liek to give the definition of factory farming to everyone. this is from wikipedia

Factory farming can refer to any intensive commercial form of agriculture that employs extreme growing techniques to produce the greatest ouput in the least space, usually with heavy use of agrichemicals and veterinary drugs.

Adam Asmus wrote:

Well thanks for attempting to destroy my family's way of life.

My Father and his father and his father have been farmers for over 80 years, and it has been within the past 18 years that we have gone totaly to layer chickens.

I will tell you right now that you have been mis-informed by PETA...some or most of what they say is slightly true, but all of it, EVERY LAST BIT, is skewed. I help my dad raise 192,000 chickens. And I will be the first to complety destroy any myths that have been put into you by PETA

PETA is not the place i go to for all my info. secondly, they are not myths. i will continue on=

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You like eggs right? Do you eat eggs? Well if you do I suppose that you want your birds to have a wonderful life out on the farm, waking up every morning pecking at the ground to pick up some organic feed right? Well let me be the first to tell you that if you want that, I hope you're ready to suffer from serious Salmonelia poisoning.

i am VEGAN.
no
-dairy
-eggs
-meat
-animal products

so no i do not like eggs and no i do not eat them.

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Let me explain, chickes are held in cages, in barns that are climate controled 365 days a year, and their guano is kept away from them, at least 2 inches, below slotted cage floors, becuase chickens peck at the ground, it's what they do, they are birds. And whats on the ground if they arn't on slotted floors? @!#$, you wouldn't eat your own crap now would you? See they arn't the brighest birds in the world, and Salmonelia is a bad disease, you can die from it, and its in chicken crap. And what ever is in the food that they eat goes into the eggs and meat...there ya go salmonelia poisioning.

yeah ur right, they are kept in cages.

in which they live their entire lives correct? that is until u send them to the slaughterhouse.

the way you are keeping your chickens in cages where they do not have enough room to barely even walk causes them to quickly develop muscle atrophy.

and after 1-2 years of an egg laying hens life because of the increased egg production due to growth hormones develop what is called cage layer fatigue. where the bones get weak a brittle due to high egg production and little to no excersize and movement.

and what about forced molting? i hope to god u dont do that, but im gunna guess u do because it is a common practice introduced by industrialized farming

forced-molting is when a farmer withholds food from the chickens for up to 2 weeks. water as well can be withheld for days. The chickens loose one-third of their body weight . Those who survive this shock to their system will start a new cycle of egg production.

and you do that because a natural molting cycle is abotu 4 months, and of course factory farmers cant be bothered with an animal goign through its regular cycles right?

what size are your cages? typical is 12 inches by 20 inches(240 sq. in.) a single chicken takes up abotu 100sq in. so even if there was only 1 chicken in each cage they would barely have enough room to fully extend their wings. but of course u dont have 1 chicken per cage do you? more like 3, 4...5 even.

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Now about the cages, cause im sure that your gonna freak about that. It's purely for the pecking order. You have always heard about it, we as humans use it, the strongest pick on the weakest and then the weak die, spreading disease, killing more. Well we put them in cages to help with the pecking order, birds that are not as agressive woudn't get any food, becuase I dont have the time to hand feed almost 200,000 birds, to make sure that they are "equal" even though they arn't, survival of the fittest once again.

i talked about the cages in the above... but ill go on.

so instead of having the birds all together where the more aggressive birds will fight with the submissive ones, u think its better to stick 3-5 of them in a cage together? what happens when u have 1 agressive bird and 2 submissive birds? theres a fight, but the submissive birds can not back down. they have no where to go and they end up getting pecked to death.

but i guess thats a much better idea...

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Now the meds, PETA needs to do is resarch, poultry doesn't have a very strong immune system, and all vaccinations are done after the chickens have been sexed.

meds are of course needed when ur dealing with such high numbers of animals all kept in tight facilities. especially when those animals are animals with already weak immune systems.

however the answer isnt to over medicate them so that they can artificially survive conditions they shouldnt be able to. the answer would be to have them in conditions that they can actually NATURALLY survive. if u have to constantly give meds to an animal to artificially make it able to withstand conditions it shouldnt be in, ur doing something wrong.

Quote:

Growth hormens are used, yes, becuase you would have to take even more birds lives to get the same ammount of food, so what would you rather have? More birds killed, or some birds with broken legs?

i would take neither choice. how is that possible?

its very possible, when ur top motive isnt profit.

instead of just making less meat per chicken by growing them naturally, youd rather pump them all full of hormones so they grow unnaturally larger, to the point where many of their bodies collapse. then in turn those high amounts of hormones are then transfered into our human bodies. yes chicken growth hormones going into a human body... sound healthy? its not, and as i explained before europe currently has a ban on all imported us BEEF because they were finding newborns and infants growing breasts due to hormones in beef that was used in imported baby food.

Quote:

Just to let you know, my dad get $0.09 a dozen for every doezen he produces, he loves chickens always has, he was in FFA and was with poultry judging. One time while weighing birds, I put one back into its cage and it had a heart attack, it broke my heart, this bird that I had just been holding died in my hands, it just got to stressed and died, and you say were heartless...

ok so im glad your heart "broke" when a chicken died in your hands, but apparently it does not phase u much. since u have no problem at the end of your layer chickens efficient egg producing cycle has ended, sending all 192,000 of them to be taken to a slaughter house where they are further mishandled and then killed and boiled.

why doesnt THAT break your heart? oh because it makes u money.

Quote:

I know there are bad farmers out there, but they are out there just like bad cops, there are a few that spoil it for everyone. I know that some farms arn't good, they just arn't but don't quit eating animal products becuase you've been told some half-truths that are used to make the lives of farmers even more difficult, It's hard enough for people in this line of work to make a living...they dont need people like you sticking your @!#$ nose into something that has been working for hundreds of thousands of years.

first of all, ANY factory/industrialized farm uses practices which are disgusting and uneeded.

i did not quit eating animals because i was told some half truths. maybe if your read the whole thread you would see my reasons.

it called having compassion for all life. something u obviously do not have if you are apparently proudly working on a factory/industrialized farm.

i already gave these figures but u obviously need them again to realize that not eating meat is not some load of BS that wacko lieing PETA facist made up.

Albert Einstein
Coretta Scott King Martin L.K., Jr's wife
H.G. Wells
Henry Ford
Leonardo da Vinci
Mohandas Ghandi
Queen Sophia Queen of Spain
Ralph Waldo Emerson
Vincent Van Gogh

all vegetarian


nearly the entire country of thailand(official religion of thailand is buhdism = 360 million Buddhists ), parts of india, hindus and jains (7 million Jains in India)
Muslim sects such as the Sufis and Bahai's

ALL VEGETARIAN for THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of years some hundreds of thousands of years.


and i REALLLY dont know what you are saying has been working for thousands of years.

factory farming did not even get realized until the industrial revolution hence the name industrialized farming/factory farming.

the industrial revolution in the US was not in full swing until between the 1860's to 1890's and later

so at MOST factory farmign has only been around for 135 years. but apparently to you it has been working for THOUSANDS of years...



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So if I understand Adam, chickens kept in cages have a better life because they won't kill eachother and eat their own feces. And humans won't get salmonela.

Sounds like a win-win situation to me.


John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto

^ read my post




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The Atrophy issue is moot. Most chickens in Factory farms don't live beyond their First or second adult month. I believe Hens live a bit longer (depending on egg production), but I'm not entirely certain... I've not read about poultry farms in depth yet.

Free ranging Chickens and other animals is fine, but you have to keep them rotating out of yards etc. and you have to blunt their beaks so they don't peck the hell out of each other.

For the Veg/Vegan idea of a long and healthy life, some live longer, some don't (What I'm saying is, the diet isn't conclusively linked to longer life or higher quality of life). Einstein only started (begrudginly) following a vegetarian diet when he started having severe health problems later in his life. Mahatma Ghandi was veg by relgious doctrine.

Factory farming doesn't impart any/many truly new techniques.. it just simplify's exisiting husbandry techniques to increase productivity and cope with a much higher number of animals. Also, PETA and many other animal rights' activist organisations seem to go off on a bent about animals getting horrendous doses of antibiotics... which is utterly not true at the very best and an out and out deception at very worst: Farmers work on a speculative market, and if they had to incorporate the costs of all these anti-biotics they'd go bankrupt really, really fast (Drug costs for large animals (forget the large animal vet bill) is usually on the order of $3000-$3500 just for the drugs, and including the fact that once the animals have been put on those drugs they can't be sold as A or B grade meats, only C grade utility meats, figure they're taking a $10K hit on a $15000 animal. Feed is roughly $7000 for a 3 yr old head of cattle). I'm really sick of seeing that pseudo-factoid pushed out like its fact (not just by you either Nate, don't take this personally), and I wish you'd at least read up on it a bit because that flight of fancy just isn't true. It's not true in bovine or porcine husbandry, and I'm guessing it's not in poultry farming either, spending that kind of money to decrease the auction price on a cattle is counter-productive.

BTW, There haven't been humans for hundreds of thousands of years, Nate. We've existed as a species for about 60,000 years since the days of homoerectus.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:The Atrophy issue is moot. Most chickens in Factory farms don't live beyond their First or second adult month. I believe Hens live a bit longer (depending on egg production), but I'm not entirely certain... I've not read about poultry farms in depth yet.

only true with broiler chickens. egg laying hens can live up to 2 years before being sent to slaughter.

regardless, 2 months of muscle non use woudl cause severe weakness and hieghtened injury.

Quote:


Free ranging Chickens and other animals is fine, but you have to keep them rotating out of yards etc. and you have to blunt their beaks so they don't peck the hell out of each other.

exactly. free range only gives them a BIT of room (the minimum to be able to be labled free range is ridiculous)

Quote:


For the Veg/Vegan idea of a long and healthy life, some live longer, some don't (What I'm saying is, the diet isn't conclusively linked to longer life or higher quality of life). Einstein only started (begrudginly) following a vegetarian diet when he started having severe health problems later in his life. Mahatma Ghandi was veg by relgious doctrine.

a veg diet was shown to be the ONLY medicine/aid/cure etc... that REVERSED heart disease. NOTHING else has ever been able to do that.

meat are linked DIRECTLY with things such as heart disease liver problems etc...

while a SMART person eating meat that actually had a healthy diet (majority of americans do not) could be pretty close to a veg as far as bodily health.

Quote:


Factory farming doesn't impart any/many truly new techniques.

keeping hens/chickens in cages to raise them did not exsist before factory farming.

growth hormones were not used before factory farming

antibiotics were not needed as much or used as preventative maintenance to guard against the intolerable conditions before factory farming

i can go on and on about NEW things that were introduced when industrialized farmign came about.

Quote:


. it just simplify's exisiting husbandry techniques to increase productivity and cope with a much higher number of animals. Also, PETA and many other animal rights' activist organisations seem to go off on a bent about animals getting horrendous doses of antibiotics... which is utterly not true at the very best and an out and out deception at very worst:

correct, in canada. we already had this discussion about how much canadian facotry farms differ from us factory farms. the difference seemed to be pretty drastic.

Quote:

Farmers work on a speculative market, and if they had to incorporate the costs of all these anti-biotics they'd go bankrupt really, really fast (Drug costs for large animals (forget the large animal vet bill) is usually on the order of $3000-$3500 just for the drugs, and including the fact that once the animals have been put on those drugs they can't be sold as A or B grade meats, only C grade utility meats, figure they're taking a $10K hit on a $15000 animal. Feed is roughly $7000 for a 3 yr old head of cattle). I'm really sick of seeing that pseudo-factoid pushed out like its fact (not just by you either Nate, don't take this personally), and I wish you'd at least read up on it a bit because that flight of fancy just isn't true. It's not true in bovine or porcine husbandry, and I'm guessing it's not in poultry farming either, spending that kind of money to decrease the auction price on a cattle is counter-productive.

the US is obviously different gam

%60 of all antimicrobial products sold in the US goes to non-theraputic use of antimicrobial products in livestock.

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BTW, There haven't been humans for hundreds of thousands of years, Nate. We've existed as a species for about 60,000 years since the days of homoerectus.

yes i made a whoopsie. i said hundreds of thousands when i was trying to say tens of thousands. excuse my ill grammar.




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