Cham and I agree on this whole hartedly it would seem. Along with lilbit and most here.
Good glad to know I'm in good company.
Keeper, The value or a human life far exceeds that of an animals.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Quote:
"Pro-choice" people use the terms I listed to make abortion sound less offensive. My point is that if it can grow into a baby, it's a baby.
Then thot to pull Monty Python into this, but is every sperm sacred? Does every ejaculation need a name?
If half of every "conception" doesn't implant, then a woman's natural process is killing millions of babies. Hardly reason to list her among Erzbet Bathory as a serial killer.
Consistency is all i'm going for. A baby in and of itself is self-propogating--if given food and shelter Same with a fetus in the 3rd trimester. A zygote and embryo are not.
And I am a firm believer that if you can't *live* on your own power, then you're at the mercy of whatever is keeping you alive. Cold? Yes, but Katrina and Indonesia have taught us that Nature's law trumps all.
Again, every case for abortion has to be taken on a case-by-case basis. The only part about temp sterilization is that i think you should prove irresponsibility and sterilization should be a punishment, not vice-versa. otherwaise, yiou'll have some government blockhead deciding who reproduces.
And sorry, i will use sex and europe in the same sentance...my g/f is European and is not a dead-ringer for Robin Williams
Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Human baby > Animal baby .
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Unless you're a tiger, then human baby = appetizer.
Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
[quote=Keeper of the Light™]
Quote:
"Pro-choice" people use the terms I listed to make abortion sound less offensive. My point is that if it can grow into a baby, it's a baby.
Then thot to pull Monty Python into this, but is every sperm sacred? Does every ejaculation need a name?
No, not at all. But since we're pulling humor into this, sperm are like lawyers, they both have a 1 in a million chance of becoming a human being.
[quote=Keeper of the Light™]If half of every "conception" doesn't implant, then a woman's natural process is killing millions of babies. Hardly reason to list her among Erzbet Bathory as a serial killer.
Consistency is all i'm going for. A baby in and of itself is self-propogating--if given food and shelter Same with a fetus in the 3rd trimester. A zygote and embryo are not.
The same could be said of a baby after it's born. Other than breathing, it can't feed itself, nor hunt / gather food. A newborn is no more capable of sustaining it's own life than when inside it's mother. Would you approve of a law allowing a doctor to kill a baby within it's first year of life because it's unable to sustain it's own life without help?
[quote=Keeper of the Light™]And I am a firm believer that if you can't *live* on your own power, then you're at the mercy of whatever is keeping you alive. Cold? Yes, but Katrina and Indonesia have taught us that Nature's law trumps all.
Exactly. But "abortion" isn't a natural thing. It's an execution without the condemned commiting a crime.
[quote=Keeper of the Light™]Again, every case for abortion has to be taken on a case-by-case basis. The only part about temp sterilization is that i think you should prove irresponsibility and sterilization should be a punishment, not vice-versa. otherwaise, yiou'll have some government blockhead deciding who reproduces.
We have government blockheads deciding whether or not reproduction can be terminated, it's only a short hop to arrive at the converse.
[quote=Keeper of the Light™]And sorry, i will use sex and europe in the same sentance...my g/f is European and is not a dead-ringer for Robin Williams
Glad to hear it, no one should willingly sleep with a wookie
.
John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto
Glad to see everybody debating like adults on this topic.
Jackalope wrote:Keeper, The value or a human life far exceeds that of an animals.
Why? Animals are intelligent although not as intellignet as all humans although
not all humans are intelligent as animals either. Some species have the intelligence to problem solve and use tools to get what they want or need to sustain themselves as humans can. Birds build homes for themselves as humans do. I personally value all life the same but I'll still eat hamburgers. We all feel pain and bleed.
Adoption laws need to be changed as much as the tax code needs to be rewritten as well as lobbyist's getting kicked out of washington but I highly doubt any one will be reviewed much less changed for the better of americans.
Why ? You have your choice save a dog or save a kid which do you choose ? Animals
have no conscience we do it makes a big difference. We are also self aware were as they just go from day to day and do not care about yesterday or tomorrow. True there are some people like that but they are choose that life for themselves.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Jackalope wrote:Why ? You have your choice save a dog or save a kid which do you choose?
If their anything like
This waste of life I'd choose the dog
.
Quote:
Animals have no conscience we do it makes a big difference. We are also self aware were as they just go from day to day and do not care about yesterday or tomorrow.
As far as I know there haven't been no definite yes or no studies done to suppport those asumptions then again I don't read every newspaper every day so I could be wrong. Animals use language to communicate. They're are also able to memorize things that their parents teach them such as hunting skills etc... so it's possible that they could be self aware and we not know it due to the language barrier.
R----E----A----C----H----I----N----G !!!
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
actually, i agree. we DO know animals can experience remorse, so who's to say they can't experience regret and guilt, as well?
we might have fought our way to the top of the food chain, but we weren't always top critter on the planet. remember that large apes and dolphins are considered intelligent creatures, as well.
lilbit01 wrote:actually, i agree. we DO know animals can experience remorse, so who's to say they can't experience regret and guilt, as well?
we might have fought our way to the top of the food chain, but we weren't always top critter on the planet. remember that large apes and dolphins are considered intelligent creatures, as well.
Apes and dolphins don't have our capacity for language. And humans are "in heat" all year, which leads to our constant struggle to "do one better" than the next person, proving our worth to a potential mate. If there's a reason we've become the dominant species, it's because we're horny. Which leads to pregnancy, and eventually discussions of abortion.
.
John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto
Actually, parrots can use language beyong mimicry, and they have taught gorrillas to be semi-conversational in sign language.
Further, Bonobos and bottle-nosed dolphins have sex for other reasons besides reproduction.
We're not as high-and-mighty as we think we are.
Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
stole my thoughts from me yet again, dear. GIT OUTTA MEH HEAD!
Humans are no better than any animals. Look at all the horrible things we do!!! (Humans in general)
- we murder our own kind for a jacket
- we abuse and beat people we're supposed to love
-we molest our children
-we steal
-we lie
-we cheat
-we abuse animals and kill them for the fun of it. Use dogs for dog fighting, roosters for cock fighting... for sport?!?!?!
-we discriminate against others just because we're different...... the list goes on and on...
However...
-a Dog will love it's owner and protect their owner, and love them unconditionally despite an owner neglecting, not feeding or otherwise abusing it
-female dogs have been seen nursing a litter of kittens (as well as pigs nursing a litter of dogs or kittens... and other animals too have done this). They don't care if the litter is not of their own kind, they nurture them anyway BECAUSE they are small and defenseless
-it has been proven that animals communicate, show remorse/mourn for another
-animals (especially dogs) can sense when a human is in distress or depressed. Example. We adopted a lab/rottie mix from the SPCA years ago when I was in middle school. I was teased and picked on a lot, and one day I came home all depressed and crying. My dog came up to me and layed her head down on my lap, and just sat there with me. The dog sensed I was upset, and was there to comfort me. They do that.
-Animals arn't out there destroying their environment by driving cars, building condos and shopping malls, etc.
I could go on and on. If a fetus who cannot breathe on it's own is "sacred life" and shouldn't be destroyed, than animals shouldn't either.
*AHEM* now on my abortion stance...
It should NOT be used as birth control. people who arn't responsible with birth control or responsible enough to use it, should be permanently steralized... period.
Women who are raped, victims of incest, heath danger or death.... those are cases that should be allowed... with maybe other special circumstances taken under consideration, with counseling.
MEN should not have the right as to decide what we do with our bodies. If a woman gets pregnant, guy runs off... woman should have the right to decide with her body. If man stays and wants the child, they both decide. If the man doesn't stick around... he doesn't have the say.
Like lilbit said... why not just make us go out with every inch of our bodies covered, not even seeing our faces, not allow us to drive, or work, or get educated... heck why not cut off our clitoris so we can't enjoy sex either? They do that in some countries too. SCREW THAT!!!
Take our right away to choose what we do with our bodies... then men should have that same right taken away. Men are irresponsible with birth control... chop his penis off... or cut off his balls or something. I dunno think of something that would be similar for a man as to a woman having her right to choose taken away.
LIke I said... abortion used as birth control... steralize them. You can't force someone to take responsibility of raising a child they don't want. And until it's easier for people who really want children to adopt... that right should never be taken away in any shape or form.
I would actually myself rather adopt than have one of my own... and plan on doing so sometime after I'm out of college (since having a child at 31-32 doesn't sound too appealing)
thank you, Nikki, for supporting my argument as a woman.
i think many of these boys are deluded because they don't want to see our side of the argument.
A catholic an athiest and a rabbi are debating when life really starts.
Catholic: "Life starts at conception"
Atheist: "Life starts at birth"
Rabbi: "You got it all wrong, life starts when the kids move out and the dog dies."
Personally I'm pro life no matter what the circumstances are.
However I'm pro-choice because I believe that it is a womans choice to decide what she does with her body and unless I was a key component in the conception of the child I have no vested interest in it therefore I have no right to decide what happens to the child.
Now if you can't understand that then lets look at the scientific/medical reality of a child.
By all technicallity a child is a non-symbiotic parasite it takes all it can, with disregard for the persons health that it inhabits (see fat babies in 3rd world countries and the skeleton that gave birth to them), so you could argue that the baby is attacking the woman it inhabits and thus the woman has a right to defend herself.
I'm using the term carrier because of my personal belief that a father and mother can be complety independant of the people who took part in your creation.
Abortion clinics are necessary because they provide counseling to let the carrier know the full repercution of the extraction. It affects the health of the carrier both mentally and physically. In some casses it can make it so you can't have children in the future. I know people who have had abortions, and its not as cut and dry as many would want you to believe it.
My biggest problem with Pro-Life individuals is that up to the point of birth their 100% behind keeping the baby, after that they don't care what happens.
-Chris
IamRascal wrote:
My biggest problem with Pro-Life individuals is that up to the point of birth their 100% behind keeping the baby, after that they don't care what happens.
SO wrong, SO stupid, and SO untrue as to be laughable.
lilbit01 wrote:thank you, Nikki, for supporting my argument as a woman.
i think many of these boys are deluded because they don't want to see our side of the argument.
Hey no problem
I'm just sorry I didn't see the post sooner lol.
Men should think of it this way. How would they like it if they had a bunch of women telling them what they can or cannot do with their "twig and giggleberries"? I'm sure they would protest that until the end. Women fought for equal rights, and right now we're much better off than before (although SOME discrepancies (sp?) still exist)....
However this new "total" abortion ban is a step in the wrong direction.... backwards even.
I liked how someone said that abortion should NOT be mandated by the government, but I do think someone using it as birth control should have something done about them.
And... since there is no one definitive answer as to when life actually begins, it shouldn't be mandated as strict as those states made it because the actual definition of when life begins still has many differing OPINIONS... there is no one real solid answer, just opinions.
Hey guys... how would you feel if bubba raped you, and you were forced to carry a child growing inside you as a constant reminder of the trauma you induced? Imagine the worst scenario you could encounter related to rape... and having a constant reminder every day for 9+ months of what happend to you that day, and see how easy it is to carry on with your life.
People that say that abortion should not be allowed period under any circumstances really tick me off. Many of you may have seen a post or so that I made before, mentioning that I was raped at knifepoint 4 1/2 years ago. IF I had gotten pregnant, I could almost guarantee I wouldn't be sitting here today, because the only way I got through the first 6 or 8 or however many months was to PRETEND IT DIDN"T HAPPEN!!! Wasn't until a bit later I realized I had to come to terms and accept what happened, and go through the process of putting it behind me as much as possible. A piece of me died that day, and it took me YEARS to finally find a "new normal" for myself and put the pieces of my life back together. If you FORCE a woman to carry a child from a rape, incest, etc... you're risking the lives of both the mother and child. SUre... there's been women who have carried a child to term after something like that happened. There's been women who have kept them... some of the women end up abusing that child or neglecting it because it's a "product" (for a lack of better words) of the man... no sorry "guy" that took a piece of their life away in a brutal act.
And besides... if it is outlawed... it will go to the point where people perform abortions secretly and unsafely. I saw a documentary years ago about abortion, and how it used to be done... and how many women died along with the child they were carrying because of how secrative things had to be. Women tried it themselves with clotheshangers, sometimes "doctors" would perform them and leave, and the woman would hemmorage and bleed to death...
Prohibition folks...
zero wrote:IamRascal wrote:
My biggest problem with Pro-Life individuals is that up to the point of birth their 100% behind keeping the baby, after that they don't care what happens.
SO wrong, SO stupid, and SO untrue as to be laughable.
Prove it. My church just held a pro-life rally for the whole weekend. Guess what? The foster care angecy worker they invited didn't get one family to show up from the 3000 people that attended.
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AGuSTiN wrote:zero wrote:IamRascal wrote:
My biggest problem with Pro-Life individuals is that up to the point of birth their 100% behind keeping the baby, after that they don't care what happens.
SO wrong, SO stupid, and SO untrue as to be laughable.
Prove it. My church just held a pro-life rally for the whole weekend. Guess what? The foster care angecy worker they invited didn't get one family to show up from the 3000 people that attended.
OK. I'm pro-life and I care about what happens to newborns. Remember, all generalizations are false.
lilbit01 wrote:thank you, Nikki, for supporting my argument as a woman.
i think many of these boys are deluded because they don't want to see our side of the argument.
HEY !!! Nikki and I have actualy talked about this in person and we agree. I'm not saying it should be outlawed out right but it should be outlawed as a means of BC.
The reasons listed ny Nikki I can get behind as well.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
zero wrote:
Remember, all generalizations are false.
That's all I was trying to prove.
---
Jackalope wrote:lilbit01 wrote:thank you, Nikki, for supporting my argument as a woman.
i think many of these boys are deluded because they don't want to see our side of the argument.
HEY !!! Nikki and I have actualy talked about this in person and we agree. I'm not saying it should be outlawed out right but it should be outlawed as a means of BC.
The reasons listed ny Nikki I can get behind as well.
I think we've all agreed to that.
Fallen Angel wrote:lilbit01 wrote:thank you, Nikki, for supporting my argument as a woman.
i think many of these boys are deluded because they don't want to see our side of the argument.
Hey guys... how would you feel if bubba raped you, and you were forced to carry a child growing inside you as a constant reminder of the trauma you induced? Imagine the worst scenario you could encounter related to rape... and having a constant reminder every day for 9+ months of what happend to you that day, and see how easy it is to carry on with your life.
*grumble, grumble... Last time I checked I was a "guy", and I'm against the government making abortion illegal.
------
I try not to be misogynistic, I know how you chicks can get your panties in a twist...
------
I'm against abortion because in my opinion it's wrong, but not everyone shares my opinion.
It should be an option for those who are either a) at a health risk b) rape, incest or c) morally bankrupt enough to use this as birth control.
I also would like to see more rights for "sperm donors" who would like to keep the child when the mother doesn't want to. The laws now seem to ignore the male in the situation.
.
John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto
Te only issue with that, John, is that going through pregancy ravages a woman physiologically.
If you take someone that's "small" like lilbit, and have her carry a baby fll term, he's going to come out of it with strechmarks up the yinyang, and so changed physiologically that hypotheically speaking, she, not wanting the baby, wouldn't want to jeopardized her attractiveness carrying a baby full term even if the father wants to take full parental responsibility.
As shallow as that sounds (and i know people that shallow), some lawyer will make a case out of it, and likely, they'd win.
Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
