Hahahaha wrote:Budhists in Laos have a life expectancy of 54 years (male)
In Japan a Budhist is expected to live to 78 (male)

Hindis in India, 58 (male)

Do you see the difference? Money, resource. Non-hindis in India can expect to live to 67 or so.. On average, worldwide the delta is 7 years.

first of all when u start giving stats u need to list resources.

lif expactancies are mor ecomplicated than you think. other factors play HUGE roles wether you want to dismiss them or not. climate, population density, healthcare, environment, stress levels etc...

and for you to try and attempt to compare life expectancies across the globe as if everything is equal is ludacrous and try to pick a single difference as teh factor of variation.

secondly when are you going to understand that:

vegetarianism does NOT = PETA
PETA = vegetarianism

there is a HUGE difference. and the more you accuse me of my life choices being strictly because of issues aligned with PETA the more ignorant i feel you are.

Quote:

No matter how healthy I am, I will not be happy without the odd steak.
Moderation is healthier than no meat at all. It is also a healthier attitude. All or nothing attitudes lead to anger, frustration and elevated stress levels.

how about you just admit you want to eat steak because you are accustum to it and liek the way it tastes instead of attempting to rationalize yoru behavior by means of neccessity.

stop thinking of vegetarianism in the form of trendy north america and maybe youll learn something.


and when is the last time you heard of a buhddist being angry and frustrated and high levels of stress?






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but yes i am very sorry for the thread jack. back on topic




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Nathaniel OFlaherty wrote:
you are right sir. soy does have a lower bv than animal protein.

but you say it as if it is bad. BV is not as serious a evalution as you may think it is.

I didn't say it was bad or good. I just pointed out that is not of the same. And from the Googling I did when this thread of discussion first got started, there are lots of postings about vegans being vitamin defiecient and need to be very diligent with their diet. You also make the case for vegetarians, but vegetarians don't have as many problems because they still eat animal products.

My understanding is that fish eaters are healthiest, followed by vegetarians, light meat eaters, heavy meat eaters, then vegans. So in essence, we're all kind of wrong, depending on whether we're talking about vegetarianism or veganism.

When I was bodybuilding, I never came across a vegetarian or vegan body builder. Mostly for the same reasons Whey Protein is so prized in mass-building... it's easier to absorb. I just had to Google up the term "vegan body building" and was shocked to see people do it. That's kind of impressive.

BTW I'm a fan of soy products. I personally have found some soy milks I enjoy immensely.

Nathaniel O'Flaherty wrote:
i dont agree at all. again if you check the list of cultures/religions that have been veg for thousands of years i HIGHLY doubt you will find ANY of them that say it is hard to stay healthy. and most of those cultures have ALOT less access to to things as americans.

Again, I think you're mainly focused on vegetarianism and Hahaha and I (at least I for sure) are talking more about the difficulty of going veggies alone, aka vegan.

I just want to be sure we're even talking about the same thing.


---

actually vegan is a very recently created word.


a vegan is simply a strict vegetarian. so when i say vegetarian i mean any and all forms of the practice.


studies on who is healthiest are so spread in the spectrum its unbelievable. but the list you created i do know is not correct. heavy meat eating is the absolute worst thing you can do to your body. hypertension, high cholesterol, cardio disease, cancer etc all stem from high meat eating.

it also depends how your list is populated. wether it is populated and scaled with how healthy people who are on the diet are wether they are doing it smart and right or not, or if your are scaling the list with the scientific backing of what nutrients are involved what harmfull things are not present or present etc...

because theoretically creating a diet that is vegan and that has everything your body needs (which is doable) is healthier than anything else. because this diet has the fewest amount of BAD material for your body.


and there are some vegs in america who do become vitamin difficient. and this is not due to the diet and way of life that is veg. it is due to the quality of food in america and the type of food an american eats.

you cant be a meat eater eating fast food and whatever they like, then become a veg and still eat the same way just minus the meat. that doesnt work. the american diet is insufficient and bad for your health and the meat is the only thing that saves it.

when going veg you must then as well actually eat smart and healthy the same way vegs for thousands of years have and the same way even most meat eaters should be eating.

but anyways its usually good talkign with you augustin, you talk calmly and purposefully and your posts are logical and easy to read. make chatting/debating a joy.




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Smus ran out of posts wrote:

mikec2003 wrote:I like abortion, to me its one step closer to a cure for a virus.......Humanity

Really? You should cure yourself


@!#$ your cynical

yeah i am cynical, but im also a realist. humans are the worst life form on this planet, were a worthless species that does nothing good.

and if i "cured" myself, i'd only take out one person, if i stay alive, i can take out a lot more garbage








You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan

(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)

Nathaniel.. I googled, Hindu life expectancy along with some other searches.. The point was that regional differences exist. That's why I said the difference was money.. It really is.. Where are people worked to death, poorer nations, where do the have better healthcare, richer nations.. That's why I said Budhist from Laos, then Budhist from Japan.. Big econmic differences, big difference in life expectancy, but if you look at omnivors from the same nations, you'll see they live longer on avaerage. The biggest differences are in poorer nations where access to dieticians and other healthcare is more restrained. Supporting my argument that without money, vegetarians do not live as long as their omnivor compatriots.

It doesn't matter.. Like I said, if you want to debate this, start a new thread.

I made the PETA comment because far too often I see vegetarians and vegans stating that they chose that lifestyle because of animal cruelty. Being an ex-farmer I can guarentee you that those who treat livestock poorly do not last long in the business of farming. There are nearly no profits to be had and if you want any you must have healthy soil, and healthy animals, period.

I have enough confidence I don't need to justify anything I do. I do what is right for me. You can feel free to do what is right to you. Let's not pretend that the human body was designed to eat veggies alone, it was not. If you choose to be vegetarian, that's fine, just know that if you are not careful you will have a lesser life expectancy. Done right, you can be healthy, I won't argue that, and I haven't. The reality is that there are enough vegetarians who are not getting the correct diet to skew the mortality figures.

PAX

well the stat u gave in CA was vegs get higher life expectancy so....


but yeah we need a different thread if we want to continue because your thoughts about animal cruelty not happening is untrue.

you are from canada. me and game spent like 30 pages on this debate and then i found out he is in canada and then we delve deeper to find otu canada has MUCH MUCH better regulations on farmers than the US

therefore accounting for the differences in thought of wether farmers are involved in practices that are detremental to life.

canada > US as far as animal issues

so we got to the point where neither of us were really wrong in what we were saying but the differences in where we lived were accounting for what we felt was going on in the farming industry.

and i never ever said the human body was made to eb able to digest animal products. it is. doesnt mean you need to in any way shape or form. and thats proven for thousands of years.




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so ya...

abortion....

mikec2003 wrote:

Smus ran out of posts wrote:

mikec2003 wrote:I like abortion, to me its one step closer to a cure for a virus.......Humanity

Really? You should cure yourself


@!#$ your cynical

yeah i am cynical, but im also a realist. humans are the worst life form on this planet, were a worthless species that does nothing good.

and if i "cured" myself, i'd only take out one person, if i stay alive, i can take out a lot more garbage

Soooo.... you're saying it's your mission in life to kill people?.....

*Picks up phone*

Yes, is this the FBI?......

mikec2003 wrote:
I think its funny that a lot of these "pro life" people will protest all day long, then go out into the woods and hunt and fish and eat meat and stuff like that, which supports killing, which is exactly what abortion is. so they protest killing, while they kill other animals. there is no difference between a human and an animal, so whats the big commotion over an abortion

I like abortion, to me its one step closer to a cure for a virus.......Humanity

and before someone comes up with the dumb ass statement of "you wouldn't feel that way if your mom thought like that" yes, your right, i wouldn't, but thats because i never would have been born, which means i never would have known life, which kinda makes teh whole statement meaningless

As for the vegetarian/carnivore portion:

Capo di tutti capi wrote:



Soooo.... you're saying it's your mission in life to kill people?.....

*Picks up phone*

Yes, is this the FBI?......

noooo.. i didn't say that

__ goes to yard, throws lime on bodies_______ no i don't kill people....put the phone down












You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan

(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)

Nathaniel OFlaherty wrote:actually vegan is a very recently created word.


a vegan is simply a strict vegetarian. so when i say vegetarian i mean any and all forms of the practice.

When, then I think you're both wrong and right. It's pretty darn clear from googling that veganism is much harder to maintain, with many vegan sites recommending vitamin and supplements and "sitting in the sun 20 minutes a day" to generate Vitaman B12.

Nathaniel OFlaherty wrote:heavy meat eating is the absolute worst thing you can do to your body. hypertension, high cholesterol, cardio disease, cancer etc all stem from high meat eating.

That's not true. It's been ASSUMED that's true because it SEEMED to make sense. But recently published in the New England Journal of Medicine...

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06313/737012-114.stm
The study from researchers at the Harvard School of Public Health found a low-carb, high-fat diet didn't result in any added heart risk when compared with a diet high in carbohydrates but low in fat. Such low-fat diets are typically recommended by doctors concerned about heart risk.

it also depends how your list is populated. wether it is populated and scaled with how healthy people who are on the diet are wether they are doing it smart and right or not, or if your are scaling the list with the scientific backing of what nutrients are involved what harmfull things are not present or present etc...

because theoretically creating a diet that is vegan and that has everything your body needs (which is doable) is healthier than anything else. because this diet has the fewest amount of BAD material for your body.

Nathaniel OFlaherty wrote:
you cant be a meat eater eating fast food and whatever they like, then become a veg and still eat the same way just minus the meat. that doesnt work. the american diet is insufficient and bad for your health and the meat is the only thing that saves it.

I agree, but I also think you're confusing the issue. Bad eating habits, while closely correlated to high-fat intakes, is still not the same issue.

Nathaniel OFlaherty wrote:
but anyways its usually good talkign with you augustin, you talk calmly and purposefully and your posts are logical and easy to read. make chatting/debating a joy.

I'm usually calm, but thank-you. When I get see outrageous errors on reasoning I can get a little irrate. I think debate should be a required course in high school.


---

Back on topic... (I guess I'll state my views first to get that out of the way)

1. People should have the right to choose. People should not abuse their right to choose (which seems to be human nature unfortunately), but taking that right away completely should not happen. When you break it down, there are people who should certainly not be breeding. Examples:
a. The cract/herion addict. This includes people who are so addicted they are willing to prostitute themselves to get the drugs they are addicted to. Granted, there are very few addicts who CAN straighten themselves out and be productive and responsible, kick the habit and raise a child in a good environment/provide for the child/stay clean for the child/etc. But the majority don't. I do believe crack and herion are the hardest drugs to get "clean" from and stay that way without relapsing. Not only that, but those who are so addicted they sell themselves to get drugs, have a much higher risk of contracting diseases like AIDS and such, and spreading them. Those who are so incredibly worried about the welfare of the child and giving it a chance... how much of a chance for a good life is that child given? Odds are, even with the best of medications, that child is not going to live to be able to drive because parent(s) in this situation, will most likely not be able to afford the medicine to do so. Plus, bearing a child in that situation is a selfish thing to do. How would you feel if you were born, and when you're old enough to understand... find out that you're going to die soon?
b. People who can't even take care of themselves, or people who DO have children to get more money from welfare programs. Seriously now... these people don't even have the ambition to go out there and do what is necessary to take care of themselves, or are too lazy to do so. Those people USUALLY, are too lazy to properly care for their children. Children when they are born do not know anything. Anything they do (eat, get rid of "waste", sleep) are all instinct. They need parents who are responsible and loving to learn the necessary basics of life. They need to learn what love is, learn how to develop coping skills, deal with problems, learn responsibility, etc. If their parents cannot do this, how are they going to learn? Few are lucky enough to have the intelligence to figure this all out on their own.

Those who argue about where their tax dollars are going... who do you think pays in the end for those children who grow up with the State as parents? And in that sense, the State is a terrible parent.

2. I am pleased to see that even some of the most hardcore pro-life people do believe abortion should be an option if a woman is raped or will likely die in giving birth to the child. The whole rape thing (as many of you who have been on this site long enough know) is a very personal issue to me being as though it happened to me, so I'm not going to go into a long thing about that. I will only mention again that had I not gone to the hospital immediately after, and had they not given me 30some pills to take in 24 hours to prevent STDs and pregnancy (and had the "morning after" not worked), and I had gotten pregnant... I can pretty much say that I probably wouldn't be sitting here today. The only way I got through the first howevermany months was to try to forget it happened... and had abortion been totally legal (again IF I had gotten pregnant)... to be forced to carry a child as a result of rape, and being reminded of what happened every time that baby moved or every time I would look in the mirror or notice I needed bigger pants because of being pregnant... I couldn't have handled it. Anyone who knows me will tell you I'm an incredibly strong person. I've had many a friends who have told me if they had to go through half of what I have in my life, that they wouldn't be sitting here today. That is something where unless you have either experienced it yourself, or were close to someone that had and seen what it did to them personally... you can't understand.

So for those "if you support abortion, you support murder" people who do believe that is a circumstance where abortion should be allowed, I thank you from my heart for at least being slightly open minded and considerate about that.

3. There is much debate on when a fetus becomes a human being. This is all speculation, and based on people's personal beliefs and opinions.

4. If it is completely outlawed, like said earlier, it will revert back to "back yard" or "alley" abortions, not in a medically sound environment. Abortions done in back alleys/kitchens/wherever not in a medically equiped environment, are at much higher risk of infection/death/disease than done in a medically controlled environment... possibly leading to death of the mother. And if you for one minute say "well if she wants to 'murder' her child, she deserves to die"... you're a hippocrate. If all life is sacred, if you're wishing death upon the mother (or abortion doctors), you are no better than the "Pro-Murder" people.

5. I do NOT believe in or support those who use abortion as a form of birth control... period. Totally irresponsible.

6. "Accidents happen". Like stated before, even using birth control regularly and properly... it's not 100% effective. Even sterilization is not 100%. The ONLY 100% is abstinance. You'd be naieve to think in this day and age that's possible. People are irresponsible in general, and it seems more and more each day less people are taking responsibility for their own actions and instead choosing to blame it on everyone and everything else. Yes, if an "accident" happens, there is adoption.

7. While adoption is a great idea... it's not done enough. I've known of people personally who said if they would have been GUARANTEED their child would go to a good home, they would have chosen adoption rather than abortion. But, facts are... there are THOUSANDS of children who do need good homes who don't get adopted. Many are "Older children", because it seems everyone wants babies. What about the THOUSANDS of children who may be a few years old, or even teens? Don't they deserve to know what it is like to have a loving, nurturing, stable home? Or do you only care about babies? The adoption system needs some work... like now. I've said before, I'd rather be NOT here than be bounced around from home to home, orphanage to orphanage, never knowing what it is like to be loved and cared about and have a stable home. Yes, some have argued with me on this before, but think about it for a minute. When you get older, you know what certain things are, even if you have not experienced it for yourself necessarily.

Ever go to the mall or wherever and see two people hopelessly in love? The look they have in their eyes? You can almost FEEL the love they have for each other. Even if you've never experienced that kind of strong love before, you still know what it is. Is it fair to these children to not get the chance to experience what everyone else takes for granted?

I've been seriously considering not having my own children, but rather adopting kids that may be a little older to give them the chance to learn about love, respect, family values... being there to help them grow up and have a fair chance in life. One of the most beautiful things I've heard of is a woman my mom works with. She adopted a 13 year old boy who'd spent most of his life getting shuttled from home to home, and not knowing what it is like to be loved and cared about. When he got older, he was VERY resentful of this, and acted out badly, always got into trouble, was very disrespectful towards others. When he acted out, (he was REALLY out of control), the family he was with gave him up... wash rinse repeat. What did she do? She never gave up on him. She diciplined him when he was bad, but she showed him love and compassion and never never gave up. Even when she felt like she couldn't do it anymore, she still didn't give up. It took him quite a while, but once he knew she wasn't giving up on him, he learned to have more faith in himself. He went on to be an honor student, and a very nice young gentleman, went off to college... etc.

Point is (and has been said before)... the growing abortion rates are merely symptoms of a much larger problem... many problems in our society today. People need to learn and teach their children respect/love/family values/etc, and not hatred for anything and anyone different. Children need to learn coping skills... it makes things much easier for them when they become teens or adults. PARENTS need to be more responsible and teach their children to be more responsible. PARENTS need to teach their children that it's ok to make a mistake, as long as you admit you made a mistake, accept responsibility for that mistake, learn from it and move on. If children are not taught this early on, when they become adults odds are they're not going to learn it, and thus not teach it to their children, thus continuing the vicious cycle we have now.

Vitamin B12 can only be found in Meat tissues specifically red meat.... Your body can produce it, but strict veganism makes it less possible for you to manufacture it in required quantities.

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html

Deficiencies in it are BAD NEWS.

Strict vegans (as in absolutely NO animal by products) tend to have higher neuropathy levels in their children.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:Vitamin B12 can only be found in Meat tissues specifically red meat.... Your body can produce it, but strict veganism makes it less possible for you to manufacture it in required quantities.

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html

Deficiencies in it are BAD NEWS.

Strict vegans (as in absolutely NO animal by products) tend to have higher neuropathy levels in their children.

this is a VERY common misconception.

wiki

Quote:


Vitamin B12 is naturally found in foods including meat (especially liver and shellfish), eggs, and milk products. Fortified breakfast cereals are a particularly valuable source of vitamin B12 for vegetarians and vegans. Table 1 lists a variety of food sources of vitamin B12.

While lacto-ovo vegetarians usually get enough B12 through dairy products or eggs, it may be found lacking in those practicing vegan diets who do not use multivitamin supplements or eat B12 fortified foods, such as fortified breakfast cereals, fortified soy-based products, and fortified energy bars. Claimed sources of B12 that have been shown through direct studies[13] of vegans to be inadequate or unreliable include, nori (a seaweed), barley grass, and human gut bacteria. Several studies[citation needed] of vegans on raw food diets show that raw food offers no special protection against B12 deficiency either. The only known vegan sources of substantial B12, aside from multivitamin supplements and fortified foods, are the Chinese herb Dang Gui (Angelica sinensis) [14], used for centuries for treating anemia, and certain brands of fortified nutritional yeast.[citation needed]

most vegans cook using a added amoutn of nutritional yeast which is a natural source of b12 and proven to contain adequate amounts needed for the human body (which are astronomically small)

on top of that most vegans will be eating and drinking soy products which very often are fortified with b12

a single glass of soy milk contains %50 b12 requirement.


usually when vegans have b12 defs its not because they arent gettign enough b12. it is usually from iron deficiencies because they arent eating the right vegs to uptake a good amount of iron that meat eaters usually get from meat.





Creative Draft Art Media Forums

Quote:

That's not true. It's been ASSUMED that's true because it SEEMED to make sense. But recently published in the New England Journal of Medicine...

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06313/737012-114.stm
The study from researchers at the Harvard School of Public Health found a low-carb, high-fat diet didn't result in any added heart risk when compared with a diet high in carbohydrates but low in fat. Such low-fat diets are typically recommended by doctors concerned about heart risk.

it also depends how your list is populated. wether it is populated and scaled with how healthy people who are on the diet are wether they are doing it smart and right or not, or if your are scaling the list with the scientific backing of what nutrients are involved what harmfull things are not present or present etc...

because theoretically creating a diet that is vegan and that has everything your body needs (which is doable) is healthier than anything else. because this diet has the fewest amount of BAD material for your body.

a vegetarian/vegan diet has been the ONLY diet to EVER prove to REVERSE cardiovascular disease

if you take a biology or human anatomy or nutrition class you will learn that part of what cardio vascular disease is is plaque build up on vein walls. this plaque is either fat or cholesterol. it doesnt take a genius to understand that any diet high in fat or cholesterol could significantly increase you possibility of plaque build up




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Nate: you know that Dang Gui and every other fortified plant borne source of B12 is grown in bone meal, right? Even Spirulina (ie pond scum) hasn't got B12 without animal decay. (In plants it can only be absorbed as part of the osmosis process, and at that point it's not animal free.

B12 is not naturally available from plants, cut and dry. I was also talking about completely non-animal vegetarians when I'm talking about Neuropathy, as well, look at it like this: Your body is going to make a finite amount of this, and if you need more you can either boost your body's potential to make B12 (either through protein rich diets) or you can supplement what your body makes with wheat is needed. Not having enough is basically a recipe to get yourself dismyelination and other nasty things.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:Nate: you know that Dang Gui and every other fortified plant borne source of B12 is grown in bone meal, right? Even Spirulina (ie pond scum) hasn't got B12 without animal decay. (In plants it can only be absorbed as part of the osmosis process, and at that point it's not animal free.

no argument from me. there is no such thing is animal free. since part of the reason there is dirt in the first place is because of decomposition of feces and flesh and what not. however there is such thing as b12 that was gotten without the man made killing of an animal specifically. and thats the issue.

i never said otherwise.

Quote:


B12 is not naturally available from plants, cut and dry.

not true. just because what is in the soil plays a part in what is in the plant doesnt mean it's not available from plants. thats just basical plant biology. if its in the plant no matter how it got there you can call it "available from plants"

Quote:


I was also talking about completely non-animal vegetarians when I'm talking about Neuropathy, as well, look at it like this: Your body is going to make a finite amount of this, and if you need more you can either boost your body's potential to make B12 (either through protein rich diets)

your body does not MAKE b12

Quote:

or you can supplement what your body makes with wheat is needed. Not having enough is basically a recipe to get yourself dismyelination and other nasty things.

any vitamin deficiency is dangerous and all have crazy symptoms and diseas associated with them.

b12 is played up way too much because it can be used as a scare tactic because anything to do with the brain scares people.

fact is however a normal person only needs .1 micro grams of b12 per day. that is the same amount is a single period at the end of a sentence. so for vegs this is not a hard or difficult thing to do. either take a multi vitamin cook with nutritional yeast or eat other fortified items liek cereal and soy milk. presto no issues.

also if at any point in your life you ate meat the body stores b12 and because how little is used per day you can go on your reserves from your meat eating days for up to 15-30 years.





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WannaBzee (aka BadAceDesign) wrote:so ya...

abortion....

Nathaniel O'Flaherty wrote:no argument from me. there is no such thing is animal free. since part of the reason there is dirt in the first place is because of decomposition of feces and flesh and what not. however there is such thing as b12 that was gotten without the man made killing of an animal specifically. and thats the issue.

i never said otherwise.

More on this:

Quote:


not true. just because what is in the soil plays a part in what is in the plant doesnt mean it's not available from plants. thats just basical plant biology. if its in the plant no matter how it got there you can call it "available from plants"

Plants cannot manufacture B-12. It is a protein only animals can synthesize. The only way to fortify grains or other plant foods is with Animal protein, either directly from red meat, or indirectly through growing with bone meal enriched soil. Basically, using vegan doctrine, neither method yields usable food because both require animal protein.

Quote:

your body does not MAKE b12

Correct, my bad... the micro-organisms that synthesize B12 mainly reside within animal intestinal tracts. It seems that they need you to do the intaking of food so they can break it down in cobalamin. Considering that they do not reside in any plants in high enough quantity to sustain animal life, I simplified my statement. Mea culpa.

Quote:


any vitamin deficiency is dangerous and all have crazy symptoms and diseas associated with them.

b12 is played up way too much because it can be used as a scare tactic because anything to do with the brain scares people.

fact is however a normal person only needs .1 micro grams of b12 per day. that is the same amount is a single period at the end of a sentence. so for vegs this is not a hard or difficult thing to do. either take a multi vitamin cook with nutritional yeast or eat other fortified items liek cereal and soy milk. presto no issues.

Again I realise this, and I said pretty clearly that this only has ramifications if you can't make enough of your own B12 to sustain yourself. Again if you can't make enough, and you are a strict vegan, you're screwed... you HAVE to get it from animal sources.

Quote:


also if at any point in your life you ate meat the body stores b12 and because how little is used per day you can go on your reserves from your meat eating days for up to 15-30 years.

You realise of course that the B12 that you have stored is shed within 12 weeks, right? You basically cell-for-cell replace your body every 20 years after puberty, and every 2 years (give or take) before that.

15-30 years?




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

I can't agree with the Vegan thing - but the fact is that people could easily be a Vegetarian if they wanted to - and despite Vegan propaganda, drinking milk does not hurt any animal ever(in fact cows overproduce so much milk - due to unnatural selective breeding over thousands of years - that it is actually painful for them if we go too long before removing their milk). If it wasn't a milk cow then it would just be another meat cow anyways. A Vegetarian can get all the nutrition they will ever need and then some. Even a Vegan could too if they where vigilant enough with their diet and took supplements.

GAM - you might believe that a meat free diet isn't healthy - but suppose you thought it was just as healthy - in that case would you really give up meat? Didn't think so. I am not Vegan nor Vegetarian. But there is no reason that I NEED to eat meat. I want too eat meat and so I do. I understand that life is destroyed to fill my stomach with what I want - and I'm fine with that. Lets face it - most of you realize that too and you just don't care. At least I'll admit it. I endorse death to enhance the quality of my life. And so do most of you but you may not have come to grips with that fact.

Even some vegans do as well. If you support war - ANY WAR NO MATTER THE REASON/CAUSE - then you support death(human death at that) to enhance the quality of your life(or for reason "X"). So do I - most of you just need to admit that you do too.

How many of you support the death penalty? I do. But many innocent people are killed by the state - being as they are innocent you could easily say they are murdered by the state - in the course of administering the death penalty punishments prescribed by the courts. That is the cost of having an ultimate punishment deterrent. If you support the DP then you must call the innocent people who die acceptable losses in the hope or deterring certain types of crime. If you support the DP then you have no right to call yourself "pro-life" or anything remotely close to that. Then again I don't claim to be "pro-life" - so I can support the DP without being a hipocrite.

For my fellow Americans - we have 90% of the worlds wealth. The average American lives better than Roman Caesars did. A large portion of the world is in absolute poverty and we could easily erase that - but at the cost of our lifestyles. While we like to believe that outside of America live lesser people - in reality that notion is *BS. For our callous indifference people die. We won't give up our lifestyle to give other people a fighting chance. While this bothers me - I'll admit that I don't want to lose what I have to change it. So who among you is sending your paycheck to Africa? I know I'm not.

So some of you say you want to save so called "unborn children." But which among you really cares that some pregnant African mothers starve to death - therefore killing the so called "unborn child" within them as well?! Well at least you don't care enough to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT - but many of you do want Abortion illegalized or at least severely limited. Go figure.

Yes having a abortion because you don't want to procreate is putting the mother(and you could argue in alot of cases the father too) before the mass of cells that could become a baby. Yes it is selfish - so @!#$ what? Its no worse than the other selfish things that we do or allow to happen so we can live like we live. Welcome to the world we live in. And honestly - sometimes it is better for the so called "unborn child" to never have existed than to be born under certain circumstances.

Personally I think that the father should have a little say in it - not that he could dictate if the woman had it or not - but the father should be able to request that the mother have an abortion if he isn't ready to father one (and provided that he is willing to fully fund the procedure) - a request that the mother could obviously refuse - but if she does refuse then she must waive all rights to mandatory child support from the father.



I've never heard of this "part throttle" before. Does it just bolt on?

Bastard King -
i believe that is the most logical meat eating perspective i have ever heard on the org. and i also agree with everythign else you said, except the part about waving mandatory child support that im not too sure about and sayign that the dairy industry doesnt hurt cows. it has been proven that the mass milking machines create blisters bruises and sores on cows nipples. this causes raised amounts of puss in the milk you drink. last i remember reading there was somewhere between 1-2% puss in a gallon of milk. the puss is there from the cows being hurt.

---------------

GAM-
im going to delve a bit in to b12 - cobalimin - for a bit

plants NOR animals MAKE b12. ALL b12 is made by bacteria.
animal meat contains b12 because they eat b12 contaminated food.
same goes for plants, plants get b12 by being grown in certain soil or having them fortified with it.

so numerous of your statements about animals synthesizing b12 and needeing to fortify plant food with animal protein are all incorrect.

so that should clear up a few things about how often you hear animals being the only "source" of b12 and how it is incorrect. animals are equally the same type of source of b12 as a plant can be. it is just that it is more common for animals to be eating b12 contaminated food than a plant to be grown with enough b12 in the soil. either way the animal or the plant are not the makers or the synthesizers of the vitamin.

as far as not being able to get b12 without the purposefull death of an animal for b12, well that is untrue.

Nutritional yeast, Saccharomyces cerevisiae, is a food yeast, grown on a molasses solution. Proven to contain large amounts of active b12. this yeast has no animal product used in its creation what so ever. and it actually taste pretty good as an additive to popcorn or pasta etc...

as far as how long it takes to deplete b12 is NOT 12 weeks. it isnt the figure i stated either. i was remembering that figure from a study i had read a year ago which i later found out was not true. b12 can take SEVERAL years to deplete because of where and how it gets stored and how little is secreeted per day.

but as far as some people viewing b12 supplementation as a bad thing or supplementation as a whole a bad thing, it has been shown that b12 is one of the few vitamins that is actually absorbed faster and more efficiently via supplementation.





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me wrote:Personally I think that the father should have a little say in it - not that he could dictate if the woman had it or not - but the father should be able to request that the mother have an abortion if he isn't ready to father one (and provided that he is willing to fully fund the procedure) - a request that the mother could obviously refuse - but if she does refuse then she must waive all rights to mandatory child support from the father.

Well I understand that most won't agree with this and I understand why most wouldn't. But my idea still doesn't create a "get out of jail free card" since as I said - "willing to fully fund the procedure" - considering that they are pretty expensive - not exactly $30(although if abortion is made illegal - that might be the cost of a back-alley coathanger "procedure"). I also noted - "could not dictate" - the decision should always be the womans IMO and of course she should never be forced to get an abortion(tell that to China though).

As is - the woman gets to choose a lifetime of responsibility for both herself and the father. He has less than no say in it. She may be ready and he may not - then again she just may have it to either punish him and/or get free money from him. I know women who have done this. I think it is a problem.

Obviously that could only apply to pregancies that occur after a set date in the future rather than people who already have offspring. I highly doubt my idea will ever happen anyways.

Most of you won't agree with me but I'm ok with that. Some of you will also think this idea, as well as myself are @!#$ stupid - and I'm fine with that as well. Flame away





I've never heard of this "part throttle" before. Does it just bolt on?

Let's see, when i bite into tissue and suck out the juices, which do i prefer...Blood, or Sap...

hmmm...

As much as i like maple syrup from Canada, I'll have to go for Hemo the Magnificent.

Anyhow, until Nature can come up with something better than HIV, let's keep a good form of population control. The last thing I want is some political dustfart telling me or my sweetie what to do with our lives.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
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The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.