AGuSTiN wrote:We didn't lose Vietnam because the soldiers were screwing around and not doing their jobs. I've heard many reasons why we lost Vietnam, but soldiers misbehaving wasn't one of them.
I didnt' necessarily say that. Soldiers can do their duty if they believe in something or not. But that is not the same as fighting for a cause you believe in. You can't tell me the motivation, the will to win, is equal there. The Vietnamese against us however - where fighting for a cause that they believed in. And no that isn't the only reason we didn't win - but it does factor in.
I've never heard of this "part throttle" before. Does it just bolt on?
drys95z24 wrote:So Jeremy are you in the army? if you are Canadian why aren't you an Afghanistan supporting our troops or if you're American why aren't you in Iraq. You do alot of @!#$ talking for someone on North American soil.
Because the Canadian army actively discourages you from joining. They have more applicants than they need so they get to be picky. I tried to apply in 1994 and recruiters were discouraging me because of a) Asthma (which is BS, I have a slight case of it but it's barely noticeable) b) flat feet and this one killed me c) I didn't have my 12th grade high school diploma.
Here I am joining up to be a bomb disposal technician and they SNUB ME!
So I am very bitter and now I vent my anger by talking a lot of crap. Maybe I'm wrong, but dammit I AM PASSIONATE in my love for my Canadian brothers and American cousins who fight and die and my biggest regret is that I can't be there with them.
However, I may be heading down in Texas soon, maybe permanently. Who knows? Maybe I'll get to be in a real army yet.
Personally I supoort this completely. But from what I understand this new legislation isn't nessecarily a "draft" like in the old days, however just requiring everyone between 18 and 26 years of age to do 15 months of government service. So does that mean everyone will be forward deployed? No, not at all.
I don't see why it should be such a big deal to spend 2 years of your life supporting the freddoms you all take for granted.
But coming from someone who has spent almost the entire last year forward deployed, perhaps I'm a bit biased?
If you have people that do it voluntarily, great, some people wouldn't no matter what or would put in only as much effort as they needed to in order to not get penalized.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
i wanted to join but my wife and parents stopped me
and if i was drafted i wouldnt have one problem with it, because i love my country and i want my family to be safe from terrorism and war
AND I SUPPORT THE WAR AND THE TROOPS and i agree with the bush administrastion
also i think weed should be legal
You take a women and X her by PSI devide the legs and you can then juice the car......LOL
Slammed (1.8 dub) wrote:Personally I supoort this completely. But from what I understand this new legislation isn't nessecarily a "draft" like in the old days, however just requiring everyone between 18 and 26 years of age to do 15 months of government service. So does that mean everyone will be forward deployed? No, not at all.
I don't see why it should be such a big deal to spend 2 years of your life supporting the freddoms you all take for granted.
But coming from someone who has spent almost the entire last year forward deployed, perhaps I'm a bit biased?
Very good my friend. Two years is even a little high, but why not? Our country gives us the rights that almost no other person on the earth receives, shouldnt you support that even if you do not support certain politicians? Shouldn't your citizenship in this country at least be earned by support of our nation in way? It just seems to me that people take way to much for granted. If you complain about the war on terror, go live in afghanistan then. See how you feel about the war to protect freedom.
Why not quite complaining about the things you find "wrong" and instead think about the alternatives and understand that in this century with nuclear weapons and terrorist we need to do everything possible to protect the rights we have.
If I've read correctly, this draft has an upper age limit of 42, with 2 years service required. That means that when you walk into Wal-Mart, look around, find a 250 pound 40 year old woman. She's going to have to survive Paris Island boot camp. She's putting down 2 packs of cigarettes a day and a case of beer on the weekend. What are her chances at boot camp?
Before you say "good, her fat ass needs the exercise", what happens when people who are old / fat start dropping dead at boot camp? Lawsuits, bad press, loss of morale, less volunteers.
Or do we "dumb-down" boot camp? instead of making recruits scale a 15 foot wall, do we have them walk up a flight of stairs? Do we reduce a 15 mile hike to a leisurely game of Musical Chairs?
The answer to getting more people to volunteer is simple. Pay more. The military is no different than any other business competing for qualified staff, they need to up the ante to draw more people.
John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto
RRC: Actually, the US has rights guaranteed by several dozen countries.
John: I don't think paying more is in the cards... Too much money is being paid out to defense research to actually pay soldiers better. I'm not saying that as a jibe either. As far as the scenario, there is a 4F designation.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
Usa lost Vietnam because they did not use nuclear weapons
some one mentioned the janitor should go. So because im not college grad i have to die thanks so much
How come daddy Bush bombed iraq and left it that. Why did baby Bush have to send troops into that horrible place
Because Dubya was valliantly protecting the skies of Houston during those years.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
mrcivilservent wrote:Usa lost Vietnam because they did not use nuclear weapons
some one mentioned the janitor should go. So because im not college grad i have to die thanks so much
How come daddy Bush bombed iraq and left it that. Why did baby Bush have to send troops into that horrible place
Are you saying that the US Military is too weak to win wars without nuclear weapons?!
I hope you don't mean that but it sounds like that is what you are saying. Nope sorry, we're not such big pussys that we would have to resort to that. FYI - our military kicks ass on its own.
I swear that is every idiot's solution to everything - nuke it.
And "Baby Bush" as you put it - didn't have to send troops there - nor was it the intelligent thing to do - but he did it anyways. His father aka "Daddy Bush" as you put it, outlined the reasons he didn't do what his son did do - and his reasons are practically straight out of the Iraq news headlines - only he released it far before the invasion. If "Baby Bush" bothered reading his fathers own book, or maybe talking to him, or maybe not twisting/ignoring tons of our own intel, as well as wealth of foreign intel reports/evaluations etc, well then he would have known better. Maybe then our soldiers wouldn't be stuck in that hellhole of a country. His father had it right.
I've never heard of this "part throttle" before. Does it just bolt on?
i donno...i think the wars are just too technanlogically advanced for a normal, not as well trained person to be sent into battle and be usefull
the iraq conflict, war, whatever you want to call it is not of a large enough scale to constitute a draft
themarin8r wrote:the iraq conflict, war, whatever you want to call it is not of a large enough scale to constitute a draft
Maybe not this moment, but who knows what those head cases in DC are cooking up.
John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto
themarin8r wrote:the iraq conflict, war, whatever you want to call it is not of a large enough scale to constitute a draft
If/when it breaks out into a full scale civil war - we don't have the troup strength as is to stop that. In that case we have 2 options -
1. Increase troup strength signifigantly - which means a draft
2. Get the hell out
Neither option is desireable at all - so before that scenario is upon us - we need to put what troup strength we have - anyone we can spare from any other bases - into Iraq ASAP. We need to do something to get Iraq's army on its feet ASAP as well.
John Wilken wrote:themarin8r wrote:the iraq conflict, war, whatever you want to call it is not of a large enough scale to constitute a draft
Maybe not this moment, but who knows what those head cases in DC are cooking up.
I'll tell you what they're cooking up -
http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=36&i=49139&t=49139
If that happens - you are looking at a major draft.
I've never heard of this "part throttle" before. Does it just bolt on?
will this draft include the millions of illegals in this country? A sort of serve for citizenship kinda thing? I personally wont go, to be away from my family and possibly die without ever seeing them again...not worth it to me. I am also the breadwinner in my family, will I have to go to war and let my family starve to death on the streets?
I'd cut my foot off before I was drafted. It would be a fair exchange to me, a foot for my "freedom".
Let those wanting to serve go, and leave us who don't like military life stay at home.
I have nothing against the draft, as long as its defending our country, and not instituting the occupation of a foreign land by which we attacked and over 60% of americans still believe is because of 9/11.
If a foreign country started advancing toward, or showed up on our shores militantly. I would be one of the first to grab a gun, put my family in a place they were as safe as could be and get out there to the front line to defend my family, my country and my way of life. I will not however go to a foreign land to tell them how they should run their country and take out their leader upon false pretenses.
I think the new draft bill is a GREAT idea, when people in positions of power have to fear their own family members dying they will think a lot harder before going to war.
All in all war should always be a last resort, it is not a solution and in the end only brings pain, suffering, and millions of dollars to the pockets of corrupt governemnt officials who support them without fear of their own family getting involved.
-Chris
Just because the legislation states "everyone' in a particular range gets drafted still does not mean that everyone goes. there are plenty of safe positions stateside that would miraculously open up for the right individuals well before the possibility of deployment.
and the #1 reaon there will not be a draft,
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who wants to pay for it?
IamRascal wrote:I have nothing against the draft, as long as its defending our country, and not instituting the occupation of a foreign land by which we attacked and over 60% of americans still believe is because of 9/11.
If a foreign country started advancing toward, or showed up on our shores militantly. I would be one of the first to grab a gun, put my family in a place they were as safe as could be and get out there to the front line to defend my family, my country and my way of life. I will not however go to a foreign land to tell them how they should run their country and take out their leader upon false pretenses.
I think the new draft bill is a GREAT idea, when people in positions of power have to fear their own family members dying they will think a lot harder before going to war.
All in all war should always be a last resort, it is not a solution and in the end only brings pain, suffering, and millions of dollars to the pockets of corrupt governemnt officials who support them without fear of their own family getting involved.
Couldnt have said it better myself
I've noticed what alot of you are missing about this is that the legislation calls for goverment service, not nessecarily military service. There are other goverment assets helping to support the war besides the military branches. People who are unable to/wont join the military and fight on the front lines would have other options vice actually going and playing in the sand box. So yea, that 40 year old woman who smokes 2 packs a day might not be sent over there. But she might be working at a factory cranking out new ammunition for those who are.
@!#$ the draft, we dont need everyone going to war, especially the unstable ones that always end up going. there are enough problems with people going crazy in the military now. with me being a soldier, i dont want some unstable person watching my back overseas, screw that @!#$. they will never bring back the draft after our Vietnam War. they wouldnt be stupid enough to do that. too many people had to die to show how stupid of an idea that the draft is. this country has enough volunteers that they will never impliment the draft again. and im not dogging draftees at all, so i better not get flamed for supposably dogging draftees. i have family roots in WWII and Vietnam and they are famous roots too and some of them were drafted. The draft will never live. We are a superpower because we have elite soldiers, not every man as a soldier. we implimen the draft and our military will only be a part of what it is now. thats my thoughts on the draft.
I know this thread is a bit old but I couldn't resist. I'm kinda torn by the idea of a draft. I'm in the army as an Infantryman, I scored so high I could have done anything in the army (including getting a commission); I already had some 100 college credits and a pair of assoc degrees. I went from civilian to Iraq in about 20 weeks, how’s that for a kick in the nuts. So I like to think I can speak with a bit of experience at the way things are in the army.
Well we won’t have a draft because of Vietnam; politicians won’t force a draft because so many people will hold up all the failings of that war as an example. We didn't lose in Vietnam because the commies were fighting for something they believed in, because we didn't just nuke everything, or any of the other bull reasons people throw around. We failed in that war because the politicians ran it as a "limited" war. There were "out of bounds" and our military was fighting with one arm behind their back and their feet tied together.
When it comes down to it we are a super power and our policies have an effect in the world because we can send our troops anywhere, anytime, and take by force strategic places. It's called Force Projection, that's what all those aircraft carriers, subs, and planes give us; it's why other countries that hate us can't really get to us. They can't reach out and put their troops on out soil, but we can. Sometimes you need to slap a mouthy brat to shut him up and make him listen.
Now as for the current state of affairs, the army is suckin' when it comes to personnel numbers. The army is taking just about anybody that will sign and throwing big $$ around to get people. People can claim that we are a super power because we're all volunteer and have elite soldiers. Being volunteers doesn't make people elite, good training and tactics make a military elite. When stacked up against the rest of the word, our soldiers as a whole a usually better trained and have higher standards of performance. We also have more sophisticated gadgets and more funding for equipment.
But at the end of the day you need the grunt to put on his body armor, load his rifle, and go hold some ground. No matter how much money our government blows on fancy gadgets and equipment you still need the man power to support and fight.
As far as the whole Iraq thing, it's like a Bosnia type thing, ethnic cleansing and groups of armed thugs fighting for power. Nobody in my platoon really cared about the Iraqis or helping them build a democracy. They wouldn't listen when we tried to help train them or even do their jobs unless Americans were there to make them. Most Iraqis just wait for the Americans to give them a handout and for us to make everything better. But we still went out and did every mission the best we could, because it's our job and sometimes you gotta man up and do what you were hired to do. In fact we had a number of guys "Stop lost"(active duty service extended against your will) for almost 18months in a few cases. They still went out and did their job everyday, they weren't happy but they still did their jobs.
As far as illegal immigrants, you don't have to be a US citizen to serve in the US military. I know 4 guys who got their citizenship while enlisted and we got a new guy who's Russian that joined to get his citizenship.
I better rap this up, I got wandering there. So in the end I don't care either way. I don't mind the "unstable" guys, most are. I mean who in their right mind would jump out of an airplane, repel from a Blackhawk, or go out looking for IEDs, car bombs, and try to stir up a firefight? Maybe things need to be changed. Have 2 different types of US citizenship, a basic one with some rights and a few privileges and then the premium citizenship with things like the power to vote. I don't know, but all those that just want to make a few signs and wear a trendy shirt may actually have to do something to make a difference in the world.
Well, the Iraqi's are afraid of you. That's why they're shy about helping. They don't know why the hell you're there or what you want and they're so used to doublethinking that when you say say "Freedom" they're wondering when you'll replace their flag with yours. Remember the three mottos in 1984? Ignorance is strenght. Freedom is slavery. War is peace? That's literally how people start to think in fascist societies. Words have been so misused and they've been so often forced to agree with them that after a while their brains are mush and they're forced to keep two opposite opinions in their heads at all times. Exclaiming only one depending on the circumstance.
--
Two different kind of citizenship? Naw, too fascist. Besides Robert A. Heinlein suggested it in Starship Troopers in 1959 and he made it sound kinda lame and elitist. Like a country club. Personally, I prefer the Metal Gear Solid solution of an entire nation of soldiers working as Private Military Contractors. It'd be a good deal if you think about it. Anyone can immigrate in the country and join this massive army. Everyone takes care of each other. There's always parades and deep affection when you return. No one ever looks down on you. Medical expenses are free, and you get real care. Plus you're paid like 100,000$ a year for your services. If a soldier doesn't make the cut, goes section 8, commits a crime against his brothers or disobeys orders, he's out and loses his citizenship. You have women/wives back home, you make kids, go back to war and then on your off time go back to teach them how to be these perfect little Marines/Seals/Rangers/Ect... So that in a few generations you'll have perfectly bred soldiers. Nice.
Oldz: well said.
I don't know about specific numbers, but, I will say again that a volunteer military is a more professional military, this has been borne out time and time again by not only the US, but Britain, Spain, Soviet Union, China, Japan, Rwanda, South Afrika, and several dozen other nations as proof of the opposite.
The two-tier citizenship is also flawed, proof: Nazi Germany, USSR, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, China, Cuba and basically any place where the military is controlled by one person or small cloister of people. The reason that it's flawed is because you do not have any say in who decides who gets what level of citizenship, and on top of that, those in power decide the requirements, be it bloodline, Party Membership (imagine if the GOP controlled that?) or military service and the level.
Citizenship as it stands is just fine now... you have to realise that the people that are stewards of the trust that is placed in the upper echelons of government (ie, the elected officials) are the ones that can either encourage or discourage people from gaining citizenship. This isn't just about the USA, if Mexico's Electorate found a way to clip the flow of drugs and illegals flowing out of the country into the US, and the US electorate found a way to minimize the want for drugs and the attraction of not having to pay taxes on virtual slave labour, then you'd have two solutions to two very large problems.
As for drafting immigrants, that's a fine idea... first you have to find them, then you have to catch them, and then you have to deport them or get them into the military. Someone talked about finding a 40 year-old 250lb woman @ Walmart, apply the same logic to a young Mexican that can't speak English and hasn't done anything more complicated than ride a bike or pick strawberries in his life. You're basically throwing these people into the breech and hoping everything goes well. That's a cheap way to end a life... and to demoralize the people not only IN the military (you're in it, think of what you'd think if you had to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with guys that don't necessarily want to be US citizens, they just wanted to get out of the strawberry fields and not get deported by the INS). I don't think it'd escape them that they're significantly different from the rest of the corps.
Knoxfire: for the MGS solution, it was tried... in the Soviet Union by Spetsnaz... and in Nazi Germany. In Russia, it didn't work out and they had about 3-4 generations to work the experiment.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
