KFLO wrote:Chris, if that was even remotely an issue the McCain campaign would have painted it on the side of the @!#$ straight talk express.

So is it better to fight, get captured, and give away war secrets? Or is it better to be a rich snob an be put in the air guard and skip on most of that? Or is it better to have probably registered but not gotten called to duty?

Trust in McCain that if Obama hadn't registered you of all people would know Chris.

if i was al-quaida it would make more sence for obama to win, let him pull troops out, take over the country and have yourself one huge bass of operations to run your worldwide terrorism network from. this way you could come bomb innocent women and children versus having to dodge gunfire from our milliary.


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sndsgood wrote:

KFLO wrote:Chris, if that was even remotely an issue the McCain campaign would have painted it on the side of the @!#$ straight talk express.

So is it better to fight, get captured, and give away war secrets? Or is it better to be a rich snob an be put in the air guard and skip on most of that? Or is it better to have probably registered but not gotten called to duty?

Trust in McCain that if Obama hadn't registered you of all people would know Chris.

if i was al-quaida it would make more sence for obama to win, let him pull troops out, take over the country and have yourself one huge bass of operations to run your worldwide terrorism network from. this way you could come bomb innocent women and children versus having to dodge gunfire from our milliary.

Yeah I agree with everything you just said except all of it. That scenario ain't gonna happen.

Al Queda does not want to fight someone who will fight an intelligent war on terror - and someone to boot who has the balls to strike them where ever they ACTUALLY ARE(notice he said even before the Iraq war - "I don't oppose all wars, I oppose a dumb war"). Obama was right from the beginning - the REAL war on terror is in Afghanistan and in Pakistan. He has been beating that drum from the start and people(even the Bush administration) are finally starting to see he was right.

Strategically speaking - McCain talks tough but he is weak on the REAL war on terror. Obama intends to bring the war to Al Queda right to their doorsteps (well more like cave openings...) instead of the McCain strategy of allowing them to organize at home and come over to ambush our troops on Iraqi soil.

Even on Iraq, McCain doesn't even understand just what "victory" means. If it was purely military - well then this thing was won in weeks or less because we kick ass militarily. And yet we are still there... because there is alot more than a military aspect to this. We need Iraq to have a real democracy instead of 1 sided domination opposed only by guerrillas. We need Iraq to have a workable infrastructure. We need Iraq to stand on its own. Do that and we don't need to stay forever except a strike force to attack Al Queda when and if they pop up. But the thing is, Al Queda is only strong in failed states - they cannot take hold if Iraq became as I described.

As far as the current situation(which is better militarily but not necessarily in other key aspects as I mentioned), everyone likes to mention "the surge" which basically means that they needed more troops(which is true - they needed them from the beginning) but the situation was not brought solely or even mainly because of those additional troops. They where just able to capitalize on the "Anabar awakening."

Of course sectarian violence was already down mainly do to the fact that alot of formerly diverse areas where - as a result of the previous genocide - alot less diverse. Back to the "Anabar awakening" - well we paid, trained, and equipped tribes to fight Al Queda - and of course these where the people who where formerly sheltering them so that left Al Queda with very little in terms of safe haven.

That is terrific in the short term but this may blow up in our face eventually. You may recall that we once financed, equipped, and trained Osama Bin Lauden and the gang to fight our enemies at the time aka the USSR, and after words they put that training and equipment to use against us and Israel. So what happens when we stop bribing these people to stop killing us(which they where previously doing) and help us instead?!




Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in
America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the
country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along,
whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist
dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the
leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and
denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the
same in any country. - Hermann Goring

well ive never heard obama talk about iraq at all really except for saying he wants to pull all the troops out quickly and that he will talk intead of go to war. if he has some further ideas or agenda ive just never heard them.

my philosophy is this, the reason we went to iraq is irrelevant at this point. right or wrong were there and we messed things up. the right thing to do is stay and fix the country and get it running properly on its own where it can survive, to me it would be like someone coming up to my house with a bulldozer and tearing my house down and then going "oops i got the wrong address, see ya later" and leaving me to fix the house they tore down. the right thing to do would be for that bulldozer to fix his mistake.


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sndsgood wrote:my philosophy is this, the reason we went to iraq is irrelevant at this point. right or wrong were there and we messed things up. the right thing to do is stay and fix the country and get it running properly on its own where it can survive, to me it would be like someone coming up to my house with a bulldozer and tearing my house down and then going "oops i got the wrong address, see ya later" and leaving me to fix the house they tore down. the right thing to do would be for that bulldozer to fix his mistake.

QFT

sndsgood wrote:well ive never heard obama talk about iraq at all really except for saying he wants to pull all the troops out quickly and that he will talk intead of go to war. if he has some further ideas or agenda ive just never heard them.

my philosophy is this, the reason we went to iraq is irrelevant at this point. right or wrong were there and we messed things up. the right thing to do is stay and fix the country and get it running properly on its own where it can survive, to me it would be like someone coming up to my house with a bulldozer and tearing my house down and then going "oops i got the wrong address, see ya later" and leaving me to fix the house they tore down. the right thing to do would be for that bulldozer to fix his mistake.

You know he isn't gonna pull out of Iraq too quickly - he is not Dennis Kucinich(who ran in the primaries promising to pull out IMMEDIATELY and leave no one behind to fight Al Queda). Obama has always promised phased withdrawl(but while consulting input from the commanders on the ground) while leaving a residual force to train and provide logistics support to the Iraq Army, as well as conduct missions against Al Queda as they pop up.

The burden of the mission will simply be transferred to the Iraqi Government and the Iraqi Army itself - as it should be. They need to take some of their own responsibility for themselves but they never will as long as we do it all for them. Its an entire nation on welfare and we are flipping the bill both financially and with our own solder's blood.




Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in
America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the
country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along,
whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist
dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the
leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and
denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the
same in any country. - Hermann Goring

Well heres a thought, MAYBE if this country would quit pissing away all its money away trying to tell the rest of the world how to live, there wouldnt be any terrorist attacks



1989 Turbo Trans Am #82, 2007 Cobalt SS G85

Hmm

Ya, wonder how modern Europe would look now with no US involvement.


Great IDEA!

Chris




"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry

I'm talking about Iraq, about 5000 of your buddies would still be alive and wouldnt have died a meaningless death, but you prob lack the mental capacity to understand that concept



1989 Turbo Trans Am #82, 2007 Cobalt SS G85

Quote:


John Glenn (DEMOCRAT) said this ----- It should make us all think a little:

There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq in January. In the fair city of
Detroit there were 35 murders in the month of January. That's just one
American city, about as deadly as the entire war-torn country of Iraq

When some claim that President Bush shouldn't have
started this war, tell
them the following:

FDR (DEMOCRAT) led us into World War II. Germany never attacked us; Japan
did. From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost ... an average of 112,500 per
year.

Truman (DEMOCRAT) finished that war and started one in Korea . North Korea
never attacked us. From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost ... an average of
18,334 per year.

John F. Kennedy (DEMOCRAT) started the Vietnam conflict in 1962. Vietnam never
attacked us.

Johnson (DEMOCRAT) turned Vietnam into a quagmire. From 1965-1975, 58,000
lives were lost ... an average of 5,800 per year.

Clinton (DEMOCRAT) went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent. Bosnia
never attacked us. He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three
times by Sudan and did nothing. Osama has attacked us on multiple occasions.
This one is a fact that makes me mad as hell.

In the years
since terrorists attacked us, President Bush has liberated two
countries, crushed the Taliban, crippled al-Qaida, put nuclear inspectors in
Libya, Iran, and, North Korea without firing a shot, and captured a terrorist
who slaughtered 300,000 of his own people. And the Democrats are complaining
about how long the war is taking.
But Wait, There's more.

It took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno (DEMOCRAT) to take the
Branch Davidian compound. That was a 51-day operation.

We've been looking for evidence for chemical weapons in Iraq for less time
than it took Hillary Clinton (DEMOCRAT) to find the Rose law firm billing
records.


It took less time for the 3rd Infantry Division and the Marines to destroy the
Medina Republican Guard than it took Ted Kennedy to call the police after his
Oldsmobile sank at Chappaquiddick.
It took less time to take Iraq than it took to count the votes
in Florida !!!
Our Commander-In-Chief is doing a GREAT JOB! The Military morale is high!
The biased media hopes we are too ignorant to realize the facts.
But Wait ...There's more!
JOHN GLENN (on the Senate floor - January 26, 2004)
Some people still don't understand why military personnel do what they do
for a living. This exchange between Senators John Glenn and Senator Howard
Metzenbaum is worth reading. Not only is it a pretty impressive impromptu
speech, but it's also a good example of one man's explanation of why men
and women in the armed services do what they do for a living.

This IS a typical, though sad, example of what some who have never served think
of the military.
Senator Metzenbaum (speaking to Senator Glenn):
'How can you run for Senate when you've never held a real job?'
Senator Glenn (D-Ohio): 'I served 23 years in the United States Marine
Corps. I served through two wars.
I flew 149 missions. My plane was hit by
anti-aircraft fire on 12 different occasions. I was in the space program. It
wasn't my checkbook, Howard; it was my life on the line. It was not a
nine-to-five job, where I took time off to take the daily cash receipts to the
bank. I ask you to go with me, as I went the other day... to a veteran's
hospital and look those men ... with their maned bodies ... in the eye, and
tell THEM they didn't hold a job!


You go with me to the Space Program at NASA and go, as I have gone, to the
widows and orphans of Ed White, Gus Grissom and Roger Chaffee ... and you look
those kids in the eye and tell them that their DAD'S didn't hold a job.

You go with me on Memorial Day and you stand in Arlington National Cemetery ,
where I have more friends buried than I'd like to remember, and you watch
those waving flags. You stand there, and you think about this
nation, and you
have the gall to tell ME that those people didn't have a job? < BR>
What about Metzenbaum? For those who don't remember During W.W.II, Howard
Metzenbaum was an attorney representing the Communist Party in the USA .
Now he's a Senator!
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you are reading it in English thank
a Veteran.

And yes matty, If i see you again, I think we will speak.

Chris




"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry

Actually in 1998 Clinton ordered Missle strikes against Bin Laden but you moron republicans were trying to pass it off as detracting attention away from the impeachment and didnt want any part of it. In some ways you could blame the impeachment for allowing 9/11 to happen.

No you were too worried about the BJ investigation which cost American Taxpayers over 100 million dollars. To think the republicans always want to call the democrats big spenders.....................



1989 Turbo Trans Am #82, 2007 Cobalt SS G85

Your Dumb.

Chris




"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry

No I didnt vote for the candidate that garnered the lower iq voters



1989 Turbo Trans Am #82, 2007 Cobalt SS G85

Great comeback slowpoke

Chris




"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry

I love people calling each other names - because that really proves your point is correct. You may also want to engage in a "you started it" discussion. That is all.




Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in
America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the
country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along,
whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist
dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the
leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and
denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the
same in any country. - Hermann Goring

Back on topic: Consider this on the "world Citizens" issue.

We haven't been isolationist since before WWII. If we stated that way, then yeah, who gives a flying rat's arse about what the rest of the world thinks.

However, being global, we are going to have to deal with these countries day-in and day-out--especially if we offload a lot of our work to them.

Pander to them, no, but at least try not to big the world's douchebag.

Oh, and Taetsch, what would Europe look like if we didn't get involved? Honestly, probably pretty similar. The Russians would have beaten the nazis without out help, and the mismanagement of the former Sovie Bloc would have made it collapse anyway.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

..idn

I think the only reason Germany lost, was because of the two front thing.

Chris



"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry

Taetsch Z-24 wrote:..idn

I think the only reason Germany lost, was because of the two front thing.

Chris

There was no way it could win. I've read up on this a lot after reading "The Man in the High Castle" by Phillip K. Dick and being intrigued by the subject of what would happen in case of a German victory in WW2; and all the experts say it was almost impossible since Germany was near bankruptcy long before the war even started. Makes sense too, I mean the country was ruined after WW1 and stayed dirt poor until the Nazi's took over. Then all of a sudden they were rebuilding the army and country's infrastructure to pre-war proportions. Where did they get the ressources and money?

Everyone keeps painting Hitler as a madman who wanted to take over the world. Maybe he was, (Hell, probably) but the whole persecution against the Jews started out as a way to acquire their wealth. Kept the country going for a little while but then more desperate measure were needed and they invaded Poland and then it sort of spiraled out of control from there. They would waste vast ressources trying to take over a country, in order to take that countries ressources which usually were barely enough to cover what they wasted. Why do you think that a racist government was tooling around Iraq and the Middle East and schmoozing with Arabs? They needed Oil bad.

The invasion of Russia was the end. Germany simply couldn't afford it and the Russians knew this from their previous alliance early in the war. Which is why they initiated a scorched Earth policy and fought a war of attrition, knowing that was the way to break the German army.

America definitely had a role in the war. Without US involvement the war may have dragged on into the 50's and Russia might have taken over a lot more of Europe into the USSR after the war. But you guys didn't "win" the war in technical terms since a German victory was never really possible.

I don't think it would have dragged on into the 50s because one side or both would have developed nukes before that with or without US involvement. It could have turned out alot worse if it went on longer and both sides had nuclear weapons, Europe quite possibly could be a nuclear wasteland now or at the very least a significant portion of the population dead. Its a good thing the US came in when they did and its quite ironic now that they were so hesitant to get involved in a war when the entire country history is marked by wars in almost every generation. Could you picture the US now not getting involved in such a thing?



1989 Turbo Trans Am #82, 2007 Cobalt SS G85

im not so sure that russia could have taken over germany had america not stepped in. germany most likely would have consumed all of western europe, the middle east, and northern africa had america not gotten involved.

i believe they would have been able to generate enough manpower and resources to eventually fight the russians on their own front. had the us not joined then germany's hand would not have been forced to invade russia when they did. russia was seriously out gunned and planned. their only saving grace was the sheer number of people that they could expend.

by 1945 over 20 million russians had died. and thats with the us helping on the western front. i couldnt even begin to imagine how many would have died otherwise. plus germany would most likely have developed their own nuke program--something russia was years away from doing.

add that all up and you have germany winning by 1950, easily. now whether they could keep that or not is another thing completely.......

The only way german could have ever won was if they would have kept at it until Britain was subdued--and THEN go against the soviets. They didn't. Thus, if the US was only involved in Japan, and not europe, Hitler would have still be fighting a 2-front war, and the soviets, who had the population advantage, would have won out over most of europe.

Keep in mind, the Germans stalled in Stalingrad, and where then summarily pushed back. At that time, any US involvement would have been constrained to N. Africa (We weren't even in Italy yet). Stalingrad would have happened with or without the U.S, and was the turning point. It would be 2 years before D-0day happened beforee any major western offensive. What likley would have happened was as Hitler got pushed back, he would have reinforced with troops from the wast, making D-day for the freefrench and the brits easier (and happening later as the war of attrition in the east ground on), causing a bristih head in France. Most likley the iron curtain would have been at the lines of Germany, Austria, and possibly through Belgium or the Nethernals, and the whole of the Baltics. With the US forces mustered in the Pacific, and since the key german Scientists working on the A-bomb were already over here, my bet is the Pacific theater would have ended about the same, and likley without Russia going after Japan.

Meaning? It may have taken until about 1995 before the Soviet bloc fell from internal strife, and things would be set back all of maybe...5 years?

Thing is now, we aren't isolationist anymore, and likley won't be for a long time--if at all before the U.S eventually crumbles (it, like all empires before it, will--the only question is when). As such, we DO have to take some care over what the rest of the world thinks. Remember how many countries backed us into Afghanistan? Compare that to Iraq part II. If we are going to go global, it has to matter a bit what everyone else thinks of us, because if relations go pear-shaped, it can and will bite us in the butt--after all, imagine if China called in all of it's loans to us?


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

As an addendum, we have to care, but not TOO much. after all, look out for #1 is paramount, but after that, you do have to consider your neighbors. If your neighbors get pissed because you have to cook breakfast at 3:00am to get to work on time, eff them. but, if you're listening to loud music because you want to at 3:00am, then yeah, some consideration is due.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

So, How can we get back on track and make this the Republic is should be?

Chris




"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry

stop electing people who will help its way towards socialism.....?

LOL

Ya....


Chris




"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry

Bastardking3000 wrote:

sndsgood wrote:well ive never heard obama talk about iraq at all really except for saying he wants to pull all the troops out quickly and that he will talk intead of go to war. if he has some further ideas or agenda ive just never heard them.

my philosophy is this, the reason we went to iraq is irrelevant at this point. right or wrong were there and we messed things up. the right thing to do is stay and fix the country and get it running properly on its own where it can survive, to me it would be like someone coming up to my house with a bulldozer and tearing my house down and then going "oops i got the wrong address, see ya later" and leaving me to fix the house they tore down. the right thing to do would be for that bulldozer to fix his mistake.

You know he isn't gonna pull out of Iraq too quickly - he is not Dennis Kucinich(who ran in the primaries promising to pull out IMMEDIATELY and leave no one behind to fight Al Queda). Obama has always promised phased withdrawl(but while consulting input from the commanders on the ground) while leaving a residual force to train and provide logistics support to the Iraq Army, as well as conduct missions against Al Queda as they pop up.

The burden of the mission will simply be transferred to the Iraqi Government and the Iraqi Army itself - as it should be. They need to take some of their own responsibility for themselves but they never will as long as we do it all for them. Its an entire nation on welfare and we are flipping the bill both financially and with our own solder's blood.

kinda sounds like bush was doing, listening to the commanders on the ground and the situation to decide when to pull out. trainig them to fend for themselves and helping them get

ive talked to allot of people who assume he'll be pulling out troops within the year.




rodimus. so were you saying that clinton wanted to get bin laden, but was worried about the backlash he'd get if he did. i guess public appearance was a bigger factor then getting the terrorist.


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