FDA Tobacco Ban - Page 4 - Politics and War Forum

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Re: FDA Tobacco Ban
Friday, October 02, 2009 11:15 PM on j-body.org
Weebel wrote:


First of all.... If I get cancer from smoking... my medical insurance is going to pay for it.... not your taxes..... and although it does effect medical insurance premiums to a point..... ...


This is a common delusion among smokers...but I assure you, you'll never pay enough in premiums to even come close to covering the cost of cancer hospitalization and treatments. It can total hundreds of thousands of dollars...dollars that must then come from healthier premium payees whose money subsidizes a smoker's willingness to damage him/herself. Keep in mind, insurance is supposed to be a buffer against unavoidable and/or unanticipated sickness, not a way to finance a premeditated decision to hurt oneself. I would not be surprised if the final nail in the coffin (pardon the pun!) will be insurance companies dropping smokers altogether, just like auto insurers will drop someone who gets in too many accidents..

Weebel wrote:


As for the tax argument...... I dont believe that I should have to pay the portion of the taxes that go to the public school systems because I dont have kids in school (or kids at all) and I know a lot of people will say im wrong.... but the idea is the same...


Actually, it's not even close to the same. Paying property taxes (which is where almost all school funding comes from, if you don't own a house you aren't contributing to schools) does pay for schools, but schools aren't just about "your money going to other peoples' kids". They are about maintaining a civil and educated society, a bedrock cornerstone of our nation's social and economic health. That benefits everyone. If you would prefer to have a world filled with uneducated, desperate people roaming the countryside, doing whatever they can to survive, well...OK. But be careful what you wish for!




Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Friday, October 02, 2009 11:22 PM




Re: FDA Tobacco Ban
Saturday, October 03, 2009 8:13 AM on j-body.org
Billhahn, people used to pay for their kids schooling out of pocket, the govt passed a law mandating schooling then started taxing to fund it. 3/4 of Detroit high schoolers can't read at an 8th grade level + as many don't even graduate. Wonderful tax dollars at work


“Poor Al Gore. Global warming completely debunked via the very Internet you invented. Oh, oh, the irony!” -Jon Stewart
Re: FDA Tobacco Ban
Saturday, October 03, 2009 9:02 AM on j-body.org
I hear ya...but, I don't personally recall a time when private school was more prevalent than public. Public schooling, to my knowledge, dates back centuries.

Sure, it may have some black eyes in challenging districts that represent worst-case scenarios of decay (and I don't think you could possibly pick a worse one than Detroit!), but I don't think that means we can condemn the entire system. Frankly, with the epidemic troubles inner-city regions like Detroit are experiencing, I'd be surprised if their schools were NOT in distress.

To all of the teachers and administrators devoted and brave enough to call that district home, my eternal gratitude and thanks.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Saturday, October 03, 2009 9:09 AM



Re: FDA Tobacco Ban
Saturday, October 03, 2009 1:16 PM on j-body.org
I personally don't think "the line" should exist, that the government has no constitutional nor rightful role in protecting me from myself and my own dumb decisions- Bk3k

Is this what you really believe, or just as it relates to tobacco products?

If someone gets mouth cancer from chewing tobacco, and has no insurance..... Well the govt has no right taxing others to help fix the chewers bad decision. I say let his face rot off then.




“Poor Al Gore. Global warming completely debunked via the very Internet you invented. Oh, oh, the irony!” -Jon Stewart
Re: FDA Tobacco Ban
Saturday, October 03, 2009 1:59 PM on j-body.org
I know, it seems limiting, but my main point is that governmental control on some levels is, and has been, a constant for some time. Like it or not, they are charged with helping us not make too many bad decisions. Smoking is but one example, and the fact that it got a free pass for so many years makes the current backlash seem even more aggressive.

I'd agree with your face-rotting scenario to the point where pain is involved...my own humanitarian instincts do finally kick in by that time, wherein I'd at least pay for his pain meds. As a civilized society, we can't just let people die in agony due to bad choices either (by the way, were you perhaps brought up Catholic? lol, j/k). But of course, we will have to pay for it, so I think it makes sense to just prevent it on the upswing rather than pay for the effects later.

Let's not forget that a preventable-cancer sufferer's "cost" is much more than his/her medical bills. There's lost wages, lost productivity, bereaved families...the ripple effects are pretty significant. An ounce of prevention is indeed worth a pound of cure.





Re: FDA Tobacco Ban
Saturday, October 03, 2009 3:13 PM on j-body.org
Quote:

If you would prefer to have a world filled with uneducated, desperate people roaming the countryside, doing whatever they can to survive, well...OK. But be careful what you wish for!


What are you talking about thats the way it is now WITH public school systems...


I see what your saying..... and it comes down do how much my insurance will cover...... but its always been my understanding that if you cant afford treatment.... you just die.... or get your wages garnished from medical bills..





Re: FDA Tobacco Ban
Saturday, October 03, 2009 4:09 PM on j-body.org
LOL, believe me. Without public schools, it would be anarchy. If you think it's bad now...

They remain a critical component of our society's underpinnings. Not only do they prepare children for adulthood, they also perfom an invaluable function of daycare.

The way it works with treatment is this...if you are uninsured, or inadequately insured, you have to first "spend down" (sell) your assets until you are sufficiently impoverished. After that point, Medicaid will cover your expenses. There is that ultimate mercy in our system, in that no matter how poor you are, you will get health care. It's the ones that are "in between" (can't afford insurance, but not yet impoverished enough to qualify for Medicaid) that end up losing all they have. But once they have spent down, Medicaid will kick in. The only ones who die alone from lack of care are those who have no one to look after their needs and help them through this system.

But you're young enough, I reckon, that you may well be still drawing on private insurance when they just begin to drop smokers altogether. I have nothing but instinct to base this on, but I'd guess it happens within 10 to 20 years. As you'd likely not show cancer for another 30 years or so, there could be a very nasty "smoker's surprise" before you get to collect your hospitalization and treatment benefits.





Re: FDA Tobacco Ban
Sunday, October 04, 2009 8:05 AM on j-body.org
Wow. Someday I am gonna have to go to the gas station to by some joints, then find a dealer and then get some cigs then? hahaha



Re: FDA Tobacco Ban
Sunday, October 04, 2009 10:33 AM on j-body.org
I dont see how they could drop smokers.... maybee higher premiums to a point but not dropping....

Thats like dropping peoples coverage because they dont eat healthy... there are much more likely things that can cause death than smoking..





Re: FDA Tobacco Ban
Sunday, October 04, 2009 11:40 AM on j-body.org
It seems extreme, but they are already floating the idea. As in my comparison to dropping auto insurance for drivers who show recklessness, so it may go for people who are reckless with their bodies.

And just in case you think obese people are any better off...already, they are being looked at with greater scrutiny in terms of health insurance. So far, it's beem limited to forcing them to improve their health or lose their employer contribution...in such cases, the employer is offering to pay for health club memberships and the like as a way to help them keep their coverage in good stead.

So, we both know what the outcome will be...when your insurance company tells you your coverage is in jeopardy unless you stop smoking...you'll just finally stop smoking. Those who would decide to keep smoking in that circumstance really don't deserve health insurance anyway.





Re: FDA Tobacco Ban
Sunday, October 04, 2009 7:12 PM on j-body.org
The biggest problem I have with this is...

Insurance companies already charge large amounts of money for something you hardly use... to they are going to make money regardless of who they insure because they insure so many people. And with that in mind.... your the one paying them for the coverage.... so its complete nonsense for them to say they wont cover you. If Im giving you a couple hundred dollars a month.... you pay the one doctor bill I have every 4 years... and even if one of thier clients does get sick later on down the road... the way most insurance comanies work... they are never going to get back more than they have put in by then... so the way I see it is that the insurance companies are being pampass asses and have do buisness doing crap like this..

I pay you for a service.... you better damn well provide that service..










Re: FDA Tobacco Ban
Sunday, October 04, 2009 8:24 PM on j-body.org
Ah, but they do have the right to decide who their customers can be. That's the thing, and it applies to all business, really..."We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" is the phrase. So even getting new health insurance these days already involves certain parameters about your body's condition, including "pre-existing conditions". If they determine that you are too much of a risk, you will be declined. Smoking is just around the corner as a reason to decline insurance.

As for those who already have insurance, well...as mentioned, its already been proven that the auto insurance companies can drop reckless auto drivers...reckless body abusers isn't much of a stretch. The money you may have put in up to that point did insure you, so it's not like it's a "savings account".





Re: FDA Tobacco Ban
Sunday, October 04, 2009 9:05 PM on j-body.org
I'd be so in favor of dropping smokers or obese folks. I work out 4 dYs a week, seldom eat fast food, non smoker, don't drink , but I pay same monthly premium at work As the fat chick who eats double orange chicken EVERY DAY, and never works out at all. Same thing with my co workers that smoke


“Poor Al Gore. Global warming completely debunked via the very Internet you invented. Oh, oh, the irony!” -Jon Stewart
Re: FDA Tobacco Ban
Monday, October 05, 2009 5:27 AM on j-body.org
ScottaWhite wrote:

I'd be so in favor of dropping smokers or obese folks. I work out 4 dYs a week, seldom eat fast food, non smoker, don't drink , but I pay same monthly premium at work As the fat chick who eats double orange chicken EVERY DAY, and never works out at all. Same thing with my co workers that smoke

Welcome to the new era of "fairness". Remember that it doesn't matter how hard you work for anything, the lazy and irresponsible should enjoy the same benefits in life.





Re: FDA Tobacco Ban
Monday, October 05, 2009 7:29 AM on j-body.org
Umm, wait a minute...insuring smokers and obese folks isn't at all "new". They've been covered, well...as long as health insurance has existed, AFAIK.

Did I miss something here? The current discussion is about how they may soon NOT be covered...





Re: FDA Tobacco Ban
Monday, October 05, 2009 8:07 AM on j-body.org
Bill Hahn Jr. wrote:

Umm, wait a minute...insuring smokers and obese folks isn't at all "new". They've been covered, well...as long as health insurance has existed, AFAIK.

Did I miss something here? The current discussion is about how they may soon NOT be covered...
Actually, the discussion was about the banning of a product, not the ending of coverage. This was a little bit of a spin off.

And my comment wasn't necessarily with regards to anything new they are trying to add to the system, but what the direction everything is being pushed. If all were actually set fair, insurance companies would be allowed to base their premiums on risk factors, just like life insurance is. If you get life insurance, you get tested and questioned for all of your potential risk factors, and your premiums are priced accordingly. When you get health insurance, somehow it's deemed unethical to base the premium on the risk factors, so healthy people end up paying as much as unhealthy people. A large portion or the general public currently thinks this is what fair is all about. Granted some risk factors have nothing to do with personal choices, but a large number of them do, and the insurance companies are still not allowed to do anything about this.






Re: FDA Tobacco Ban
Monday, October 05, 2009 9:17 AM on j-body.org
All true, in the big picture anyway...but I do believe health insurance companies are indeed moving towards a more selective approach, so your ire towards this subject in particular may be misdirected.




Re: FDA Tobacco Ban
Monday, October 05, 2009 10:27 AM on j-body.org
Bottom line is i dont know if this will happen, remember when they wanted to ban obese people from fast food places or from eating certain things off the menu at restaraunts.



Re: FDA Tobacco Ban
Tuesday, October 06, 2009 10:03 PM on j-body.org
Torres wrote:

Bottom line is i dont know if this will happen, remember when they wanted to ban obese people from fast food places or from eating certain things off the menu at restaraunts.
Simple solution... narrow the doors on all restaurants!! You can't eat this until you can fit your ass through these doors! It would be better than simply banning particular foods. Obviously the whole idea is in jest.







Re: FDA Tobacco Ban
Wednesday, October 07, 2009 5:07 AM on j-body.org
bwahahahaha!

All kidding aside, I'd be all for a sliding rate scale that simply takes existing data about likelihood of health problems versus degree of obesity. The better shape you're in, the less you pay. Not only would this put the load (pardon the pun!) where it belongs, on the obese folk...it would also serve as a significant incentive for them to get in shape. Hit people in their wallet and they really sit up and take notice!





Re: FDA Tobacco Ban
Wednesday, October 07, 2009 10:14 AM on j-body.org
RuggedZ wrote:

no the government was elected to do the will of the people. they were not elected to think for us, they were elected to represent us in government.




actually you elect someone you feel shares their views. but there is no rule saying they have to go by what the people want, they do represent you, but they are under no obligation to go with what you decide, if they were they would have a poll every month to see what you like and then vote that way. but they dont, they vote how they want on everything. your only recourse is to vote someone in to replace them if you dont like the job they are doing


http://www.flickr.com/photos/sndsgood/ https://www.facebook.com/#!/Square1Photography

Re: FDA Tobacco Ban
Saturday, October 10, 2009 12:17 AM on j-body.org
So basically.... from what your saying.. someday the only way you will be able to qualify for midical insurance is if you dont need it...

If your going to insure someone against something...... stop being a bitch and just pay out if something happens...

Only insuring someone for something that is next to impossible of happening is ridiculous...

Just ensure me and quit being an ass hole about it...

It is 100% legal to smoke... so I would think that there SHOULD be legal issues not covering someone who does.... hell those people need it more anyway LOL

What if no one would insure smokers.... but cigarettes where legal..... that would be a stupid problem...







Re: FDA Tobacco Ban
Saturday, October 10, 2009 8:40 AM on j-body.org
ScottaWhite wrote:

That's because Obama probably smokes Kool or Newports. Seriously, if you ever watch a black man/ woman buy cuts, guarantee it's one of those two menthol brands.


Now I know your uncomfortable with a black president.



My Cav
I give up...
i'm buying a VW those people love trees, so they should love eachother too... "Andy"
Re: FDA Tobacco Ban
Saturday, October 10, 2009 1:22 PM on j-body.org
^^^ He is right though LOL





Re: FDA Tobacco Ban
Saturday, October 10, 2009 5:44 PM on j-body.org
You'd like to think so because it makes it easier to disagree with me.... You just have to say " oh well he's racist". Because I don't care about his ethnicity one way or another, it makes it simple for me to narrow it down as to why I don't like him.

And you, dude, bring up his race, not me. I'm going to do a google search and see what his brand is now.


“Poor Al Gore. Global warming completely debunked via the very Internet you invented. Oh, oh, the irony!” -Jon Stewart
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