I really want to do the 086 head, but i don't have the money to build the bottom end. The final CR would be like 10.7:1 on the stock bottom end, i think. Can I get by with runing that CR on the stock rods/pistons on premium gas with HPTuners tunded on the dyno. Only reason I ask is the quad4 forums write up doesn't mention having to put in new pistons so i just want your guyses take on it. Linky
I would only run the secret cams until i could build the bottom end and do the 2.3 pump swap. Only then would I put the HO cams in so I could utilize the higher power band and flow of the head.


Or should I just forget about it and wait until i can afford the full build?

All comments welcome.

PSN ID: Phatchance249

I don't believe you'd have any problems with that. Boost is what people usually build the bottom end for. You'll reach the limit of compression before you reach the limits of the bottom end. I wouldn't go revving it to 8 grand or anything without at least a good balancing but compression shouldn't mess it up.


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'96 Cavalier Good ol' Pushrod 2.2
-24X,000 miles on factory build
-Some oil loss between changes, me thinks it be rings.

Compression is closer to 11.7 with stock 99+ pistons (with as many times as I have answered that, you would think I could remember the exact number...lol). You would have to run 91+ octane. You would probably be fine depending on how many miles the motor has. People run turbos with as much as 8 psi on a stock motor for an extended period of time, which would probably have close to the same dynamic compression (I can't say for sure though).


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"Youth in Asia"...I don't see anything wrong with that.

I just heard that the stock rods would have hot spots that run the risk of detonateing at higher CR's. Its a DD so i dont want to blow the engine.

PSN ID: Phatchance249

Hot spots on the rods?


--------------------------------------------------
'96 Cavalier Good ol' Pushrod 2.2
-24X,000 miles on factory build
-Some oil loss between changes, me thinks it be rings.

Shawn McKenzie wrote:I just heard that the stock rods would have hot spots that run the risk of detonateing at higher CR's. Its a DD so i dont want to blow the engine.

I question where you got that information. Detonation (or pre-detonation) is when the cylinder fires before the spark. You get this from running too low of octane with high compression. Hot spots are created from running a head gasket that has too small of a fire ring where it overlaps the combustion chamber (hence the reason they say to use a 2.3L gasket. I can assure you a 99-02 felpro gasket works just fine). I have never heard anything about hot spots on rods.


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"Youth in Asia"...I don't see anything wrong with that.

The rods are no where near the combustion chamber, hot spots occur on spark plugs, exhaust valves, decks...



fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.

sorry, rods was a type-o, i meant to say pistons. Motor has 57K miles on it right now, 01 Z. So far i gather you guys think i would be ok on the stock bottom end running premium, 92 oct here. Am I right? That would be sweet b/c it doesn't look like i will have the money for the full build for a while.

I was thinking of the following for right now:
086 head + stock valvetrain
Secret Cams
ARP head studs
Now i am a little confused as to what gasket to use, I was thinking of using a gasket the turbo guys use to lower CR a little. One of the MLS gaskets from Team Vision Racing for example.

Brian did you get yours wroking yet? How does it run? What did you use to tune it?

PSN ID: Phatchance249

Shawn McKenzie wrote:sorry, rods was a type-o, i meant to say pistons. Motor has 57K miles on it right now, 01 Z. So far i gather you guys think i would be ok on the stock bottom end running premium, 92 oct here. Am I right? That would be sweet b/c it doesn't look like i will have the money for the full build for a while.

You should be fine

Shawn McKenzie wrote:I was thinking of the following for right now:
086 head + stock valvetrain
Secret Cams
ARP head studs
Now i am a little confused as to what gasket to use, I was thinking of using a gasket the turbo guys use to lower CR a little. One of the MLS gaskets from Team Vision Racing for example.

If the MLS is the exact same size as stock then it won't work. I can not attest to whether or not it will. My stock GM gasket had the fire ring overlapping the combustion chamber, but I was lucky to find out that the Felpro gasket worked (although with as much as I have invested in the SOB, $30-40 wouldn't have been that big of a loss to me).

Shawn McKenzie wrote:Brian did you get yours wroking yet? How does it run? What did you use to tune it?

Yes it is working, although not in a daily drivable state right now, as I have a problem with the battery not holding charge and the car won't start without it being on the charger. I also have a problem with the trans not shifting until at least 5000 rpms regardless of throttle position, which is probably from the low vacuum. I have had countless crap go wrong with my build (some my fault, some my father's fault and some acts of God), but it seems to be running great now.

The car isn't tuned. I am only using Ford red tops and an accell FPR set at about 40 psi @ idle. Compared to stock, though, it is bad ass. I love the exhaust note (although I hate the decibel), and the car just flies on the top end. If you want, I might be able to post a video for you tomorrow.




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"Youth in Asia"...I don't see anything wrong with that.

That would be sweet if you could.

So you used the 99-02 felpro gasket? Why didn't you use the 2.3L gasket like the guide recomends? Also why did you do the injectors? Going boost soon? Or do i need bigger ones as well?

PSN ID: Phatchance249

Shawn McKenzie wrote:That would be sweet if you could.

So you used the 99-02 felpro gasket? Why didn't you use the 2.3L gasket like the guide recomends? Also why did you do the injectors? Going boost soon? Or do i need bigger ones as well?

To be quite honest, I never read any write up on the swap. I had remembered a post a long time ago that showed which holes needed to be drilled. That is what I went off of. Merlin and I had done our 086 swaps around the same time, and he was actually the one that informed me about using a 2.3L gasket, but I had already purchased the Felpro.

To handle 195 hp (as the quad4forums post claims), the stock injectors can't handle that. Ford red tops are 30 lb/ hr...Stock H.O. injectors are 32lb/hr... just to give you a reference. You and I have the high impedance injectors, and the H.O. are low impedance, so the H.O. injectors won't work for us without modification. That is why I chose to go with the a set of flow matched Ford Red tops.


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"Youth in Asia"...I don't see anything wrong with that.

Do the Ford red tops plug right in? Do I need a AFPR with higher flow injectors? Will our pumps handle these injectors?

Sorry for the questions but I don't want to get half way through and then need all these parts. I can start PM'ing you if you want.

PSN ID: Phatchance249

Shawn McKenzie wrote:Do the Ford red tops plug right in?

No. You need injector connectors. I bought mine from this guy off of ebay...click

Shawn McKenzie wrote:Do I need a AFPR with higher flow injectors? Will our pumps handle these injectors?

An adjustable fuel pressure regulator is the bare minimum. I definately wouldn't try running the car without one, unless you have a wideband and you are miraculously getting decent AFR's. I am currently using the stock fuel pump, but I plan to upgrade to the Walbro 255 soon.

Shawn McKenzie wrote:Sorry for the questions but I don't want to get half way through and then need all these parts. I can start PM'ing you if you want.

That would be best, but for some reason, I am currently having trouble accessing messages from other members. You are more than welcome to email me if you would like...However, I am going to check in for the night.


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"Youth in Asia"...I don't see anything wrong with that.

Here is the video. It is a little long, because I wanted to show what I was talking about with the 5000 rpm shift points. The two WOT runs are towards the end


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"Youth in Asia"...I don't see anything wrong with that.

Not sure why the hyperlink didn't work, but here is the url:

http://s141.photobucket.com/albums/r44/whalesac/?action=view¤t=Cavalier1.flv



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"Youth in Asia"...I don't see anything wrong with that.

Where is the video?




In the planning stage for an all American TRD Cavalier.

Oh, never mind I went back to look at my post and your URL poped up. Car sounds nice, and yeah I see what you mean by it shifts high. Besides that looks and sounds great! About time somebody represents us Autos!




In the planning stage for an all American TRD Cavalier.

Quote:

An adjustable fuel pressure regulator is the bare minimum. I definately wouldn't try running the car without one, unless you have a wideband and you are miraculously getting decent AFR's. I am currently using the stock fuel pump, but I plan to upgrade to the Walbro 255 soon.

From what he first posted he mentioned HPT, if he has it or gets it then he would not need a AFPR, he could set the injectors with HPT.



FU Tuning

^^^ You are rigth John. I somehow overlooked where Shawn mentioned HPTuners.


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"Youth in Asia"...I don't see anything wrong with that.

I couldn't hear hardly anything in the vid, probably my comp though. School issue sux nuts.

Why does HPtuners make it so i don't need an AFPR? I guess i don't quite understand how our fuel system works and how its controled.

I am going to the local Chevy Dealer tomorrow to see how much the injectors are and a bunch of other stuff like; LS lips, the 086 head for giggles, a LD9 block, and probably some more. I know all it can be had for cheaper lots of places, but I like to do my homework and I have big ideas for the summer.

Thanks for all the help so far, keep it comming.

PSN ID: Phatchance249

Shawn McKenzie wrote:I couldn't hear hardly anything in the vid, probably my comp though. School issue sux nuts.

Why does HPtuners make it so i don't need an AFPR? I guess i don't quite understand how our fuel system works and how its controled.

I am going to the local Chevy Dealer tomorrow to see how much the injectors are and a bunch of other stuff like; LS lips, the 086 head for giggles, a LD9 block, and probably some more. I know all it can be had for cheaper lots of places, but I like to do my homework and I have big ideas for the summer.

Thanks for all the help so far, keep it comming.

With HPT you can set-up the injector's to idle correctly. Basicly allow them to open less so less fuel goes in.



FU Tuning

Shawn McKenzie wrote:I couldn't hear hardly anything in the vid, probably my comp though. School issue sux nuts.

Why does HPtuners make it so i don't need an AFPR? I guess i don't quite understand how our fuel system works and how its controled.

I am going to the local Chevy Dealer tomorrow to see how much the injectors are and a bunch of other stuff like; LS lips, the 086 head for giggles, a LD9 block, and probably some more. I know all it can be had for cheaper lots of places, but I like to do my homework and I have big ideas for the summer.

Thanks for all the help so far, keep it comming.

with HPT you can set how mcuh fuel the injectors inject at idle.. or atleast the injectors most people will use you can do this. When you start going with really really big injectors you still need an ajdustable fuel pressure regulator because there is a point to where injectors don't open at all ..i don't know if i made any sence but ask questions if you must

No i think i got it. Now i just need to scroung for parts, money, and hope my clutch doesn't hate me when this is all done.

PSN ID: Phatchance249

You can't get a 086 head from Gm. Maybe Gmpartsdirect but not Gm directly. They only sell 456 as replacement.



Gilles
2.3 Ho