Okay so we all know the oil pumps in the 2.4l are junk and right now the only alternative is the 2.3l oil pump swap.
I've been searching this site for a couple hours getting mixed things about the pump.
I need to know exactly what is the problem with it, the 2.4 pump. Does it lose pressure at high rpms? does it not flow enough volume? are the oil galleys part of the problem?
Can anybody with FIRST HAND information, enlighten me a little bit please? I really don't want alot of the hearsay, and BS from people who really have no expeirence with it
thanks
To tell the truth I don't know to much about it. But when my car is running at 195F my oil pressure is around 15PSI and that is with fresh 10W 40 GTX Oil. If you ask me that is not that good. But when I'm driving down the road it is about 35PSI and when it is cold at idle it is at about 50-75 PSI depending on how cold it is.
In the planning stage for an all American TRD Cavalier.
I'm using Quaker State Q power synthetic....operating temp mines about 22-25psi...cruising its right around 35psi....cold startup around 65psi....
I have yet to see oil pressure drop from 5500rpms and up....not even slightly.....so ionno
I'm careful when I go around corners cause thats when it fails...but if you have the right amount of oil in your motor than it doesnt....atleast thats what I get when I read about them.
2000 Camaro V6.
| SLP Loudmouth | CAI Intake | HID's |
^^^^^^ Damn you guys have some lower cruise pressure. I see at least 45 psi when cruising with a warm motor.
Also the 2.3 oil pump is not the only option. JBP has one as well. Also supposely Melling does also.
FU Tuning
My car with 125,000 and blown rings on cylinder 3... oil pressure never drops below 65psi at WOT, from 1000 rpms to redline. I run around 20-25 at idle, and 40-50 at around 60 mph.
PRND321 Till I DIE
Old Motor: 160whp & 152ft/lbs, 1/4 Mile 15.4 @88.2
M45 + LD9 + 4T40-E, GO GO GO
The problem with the 2.4 oil system is that pressure begins to drop off above 5500 rpm.
I have seen this problem on every 2.4 I have worked on when they are equipped with a high quality mechanical oil pressure gauge. My 95 2.3 also has the same issue.
The problem is not that there is simply a pressure drop, but more specifically, there is too much of a pressure drop.
I typically see only 45-50 psi @6200rpm which is well below the general rule of thumb that recommends 10psi for every 1000 rpm (for the math impaired, this means 62 psi minimum @ 6200 rpm).
I would not be concerned, but the #1 catastrophic failure for 2.4s seems to be putting a rod through the side of the block. So it seems there is a lack of oil pressure issue there.
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Quote:
I would not be concerned, but the #1 catastrophic failure for 2.4s seems to be putting a rod through the side of the block. So it seems there is a lack of oil pressure issue there
I'm in no way trying to question your knowledge, but just a question. Do you think it could also be a issue of not enough volume? Yes we need pressure, but isn't volume just as important? From my understanding (which I in no way meaning I'm a pro, because I'm not) if we are spinning rod bearings it is because of lack of oil? Which would be more towards volume. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Main reason I say this is a guy I knew with a old school Monte Carlo with a olds 455 in it, had super low oil pressure (20psi WOT), but he said because he had plenty of volume the motor was good.
Because of this thinking I was thinking when I build a 2.4 to drill out the oil passages (bigger) and try to find a high volume pump. I do not want to do the 2.3 pump swap. The 2.4 system has worked great for me. I also do not plan to rev over factory settings.
FU Tuning
My motor build will have all the oil passages bored a little over. Haven't got there yet, but will soon. I also do not want to do the 2.3 oil pump swap, maybe the JBP pump, but thats it. So if I see 65psi at WOT and redline ... I'm pretty much good to go.
PRND321 Till I DIE
Old Motor: 160whp & 152ft/lbs, 1/4 Mile 15.4 @88.2
M45 + LD9 + 4T40-E, GO GO GO
Just to clear this up: Melling does not sell an aftermarket pump, only an oem replacement pump. I had emailed turbotech and cnfx and they promptly changed their site descriptions.
Blew it up, build numbers coming soon
I am swaping to a 2.3 pump on the next motor. I wanted to loose the balance shafts and pickup oil volume
My Melling 2.3 pump just arrived today
Jason
99 Z24
157hp/171tq
wheres my boost??
98redcavz24 (LD9Stunner) wrote:Just to clear this up: Melling does not sell an aftermarket pump, only an oem replacement pump. I had emailed turbotech and cnfx and they promptly changed their site descriptions.
Interesting. From the pictures posted above, and from comments from SPeedracer. Those pictures are the same as the Melling pump (which you can see in the pictures, there is a difference). I'm in no way saying the melling pump is a higher volume, but if the pictures above is a meeling pump next to a stock pump there is a aidfference.
FU Tuning
John Higgins wrote:Quote:
I would not be concerned, but the #1 catastrophic failure for 2.4s seems to be putting a rod through the side of the block. So it seems there is a lack of oil pressure issue there
I'm in no way trying to question your knowledge, but just a question. Do you think it could also be a issue of not enough volume? Yes we need pressure, but isn't volume just as important? From my understanding (which I in no way meaning I'm a pro, because I'm not) if we are spinning rod bearings it is because of lack of oil? Which would be more towards volume. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Main reason I say this is a guy I knew with a old school Monte Carlo with a olds 455 in it, had super low oil pressure (20psi WOT), but he said because he had plenty of volume the motor was good.
Because of this thinking I was thinking when I build a 2.4 to drill out the oil passages (bigger) and try to find a high volume pump. I do not want to do the 2.3 pump swap. The 2.4 system has worked great for me. I also do not plan to rev over factory settings.
You sir nailed it!
Lack of oil is the reason of failure of components on these engines. Put one, two quarts less of oil on any other engine and tell me your end results.
Lack of lubrication on a area where there is a lot of friction and something will give.
Another thing there was a member that posted a few months back on the maintenance section that had the 2.3L oil pump and he still wind up spinning a rod.
So the next question is: how will there be lack of oil? Well, first some people go by GM's specifications that the 2.4L requires 4 qrts, when in fact it requires 4.5qrts almost 4.75qrts with the new AC-Delco filter. So right off the bat you're starting of low.
Then there are the people that never did a proper break-in (some people bought their cars used or did know about break-ins) and drove it like a bat out of hell, so the piston rings never sat correctly, long term effect: burns oil. GM tells you to do break-ins for a reason.
Then there are people that shift their cars at redline, even if commuting thinking they are Mario Andretti, so they are extremely harsh to the internals, worst case they use oils that don't handle that abuse that well (cheap oil with wrong viscosity level). So again, your oil level will be consumed.
The best way to avoid oil problems, is to do just this (picture below) and do change oil intervals specified by GM, that rule of thumb goes for any engine too. And if you burn/consume oil, check your oil level more often then normal. Remember our engines are not Wankel engines where the engine normally consumes oil and it will still drive fine.
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Quote:
So the next question is: how will there be lack of oil? Well, first some people go by GM's specifications that the 2.4L requires 4 qrts, when in fact it requires 4.5qrts almost 4.75qrts with the new AC-Delco filter. So right off the bat you're starting of low.
Good point made here. I know of 2 2.4's in my area with spun rod bearings (in the past), both were because they were at least a quart low on oil and then were reved out.
When I change my oil I fill it up (til the dip stick says full), then start the car and let it run for a few minutes, warm the oil, and then maybe rev it slightly. I then turn it off let it sit a few minutes and then check it again. Sometimes I have to add another 1/4 to a 1/2 of a quart for it to be full. I always check my oil before going to the track, or racing.
FU Tuning
Another point I would like to bring up about my 2.4. I have a 97 Auto 2.4 and it has around 135,000 miles on it. I don't burn oil, I don't lose oil, I change it about every 2,500- 3,000 miles. I use Castrol GTX Anti Sludge 10W 40 Oil, seems to work great in my car. Every once and a while with an oil change I will throw in the 4 cylinder oil treatment figured why not? I used to drive my car real hard, now I'm pretty easy on it. I have NEVER in the four years of owning my car ever had anything break down on the engine. And after driving the way I have my compression averages about 190 in each cylinder, (Tested about a month ago) and they say compression should be between 210-180 I think I'm doing good still. The worst I have had is a clogged EGR. I have put alot of miles on that car as well. So I don't think there is really much we can do about low oil pressure because as stated above people with the 2.3 oil pump conversion have still spun bearings. Another reason I might see low idle and cruise pressure at hot temps, (The only time I see this pressure is when the car is running hot after I played around with it.) is because I'm also using an electronic pressure gage, and I hear those are not as acurate as manual gages. Under normal driving I will see about 20-25 at idle on warm conditions, 40-50 psi at cruise, and 65-70 at WOT on warm conditions. Above I was stating what my worst conditons where because he was asking what the problem was with them. That is the only time I seen a problem was when I had ran it hard and the car was running a bit warmer that normal.
In the planning stage for an all American TRD Cavalier.
I think this post has just made up my mind fo me. I'm working on building up a Hybrid engine and I was debating on weather to do the swap. I'm fanatical about my oil changes and engine car so I don't think this should be a problem for me. I think I'll just relpace the ld9 pump and be done with it.
Is there a high volume oil filter that will fit out engines, wouldn't that help hold more oil and keep temps down a bit?
- Paul
this is a really good thread, the best defense against oil related failure is good oil, proper amount, and regular changes.
HP Tuners | Garrett T3/T04B | 2.5" Charge Pipes | 2.5" Downpipe | 650 Injectors | HO Manifold | Addco front/rear | Motor Mounts | HKS SSQV | Spec stage 3 | AEM UEGO Wideband | Team Green LSD | FMIC | 2.3 cams | 2.3 oil pump swap | 280WHP | Now ECOTECED
The reason I made this post is because I have gotten the interest of this pump problem to a local performance shop, that happens to want to get out of working on cars and producing parts for them instead.. and this happens to be a perfect thing for them to figure out..
stock replacement pump that will solve our problem like the 2.3 pump..
but so far we are looking at removing the balance shafts anyways with the new pump. If it actually happens, still in the idea stage of things.
but i need a pump for them to dissect, Luke Heier said he would send me one, but it has the whole balance shaft assemble and weighs to much to ship. i just need a pump and pickup..
RyZ96 wrote:The reason I made this post is because I have gotten the interest of this pump problem to a local performance shop, that happens to want to get out of working on cars and producing parts for them instead.. and this happens to be a perfect thing for them to figure out..
stock replacement pump that will solve our problem like the 2.3 pump..
but so far we are looking at removing the balance shafts anyways with the new pump. If it actually happens, still in the idea stage of things.
but i need a pump for them to dissect, Luke Heier said he would send me one, but it has the whole balance shaft assemble and weighs to much to ship. i just need a pump and pickup..
I can get you a pump, but the pick up is made into the balance shafts.
FU Tuning
can you show me a picture..i can honestly say i've never seen the inside of a 2.4l. let alone the pump assembly..
sure you have..... there is a pic in my garage sale post......
The aluminum piece to the right is the pump, the screen in the middle is the pickup......
John Higgins wrote:Quote:
I would not be concerned, but the #1 catastrophic failure for 2.4s seems to be putting a rod through the side of the block. So it seems there is a lack of oil pressure issue there
I'm in no way trying to question your knowledge, but just a question. Do you think it could also be a issue of not enough volume? Yes we need pressure, but isn't volume just as important? From my understanding (which I in no way meaning I'm a pro, because I'm not) if we are spinning rod bearings it is because of lack of oil? Which would be more towards volume. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Main reason I say this is a guy I knew with a old school Monte Carlo with a olds 455 in it, had super low oil pressure (20psi WOT), but he said because he had plenty of volume the motor was good.
Because of this thinking I was thinking when I build a 2.4 to drill out the oil passages (bigger) and try to find a high volume pump. I do not want to do the 2.3 pump swap. The 2.4 system has worked great for me. I also do not plan to rev over factory settings.
One, 2 different engines..... and 2....... Pressure keeps the rods floating over the rod journals...... In the case of the 455, if the clearences are loose, more oil volume is needed to keep replacing the oil that is lost (back into the pan) from in-between the bearings and journals..... and then there is the surface area (piston face vs. rod journal face).... ever see the journals on a 455 crank? (compression x combustion x surface area of piston = amount of pressure the oil in the rod bearing journal needs to withstand. Larger surface, less pressure per sqr. inch.)
SPD RCR Z -
'02 Z24 420whp
SLO GOAT -
'04 GTO 305whp
W41 BOI -
'78 Buick Opel Isuzu W41 Swap
Good info guys.. Ill just KEEP making sure my oil level is full all the time.
~2014 New Z under the knife, same heart different body~
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2012 numbers - 4SPD AUTOMATIC!!
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Thank you very much Paul, those are some great pictures
also, Brian.. I never saw the picture of the pump because at home i have 56k, so usually i just read the posts real quick then reply before the pictures every load up. i honestly did see it, but thank you also for that picture
RyZ96 wrote:Thank you very much Paul, those are some great pictures
also, Brian.. I never saw the picture of the pump because at home i have 56k, so usually i just read the posts real quick then reply before the pictures every load up. i honestly did see it, but thank you also for that picture
See what I mean about the pickup being part of the balance shaft assembly? Let me know what you wanna do.
2010 Subaru Impreza WRX Limited
1999 Cavalier Z24 Supercharged
1999 Grand AM SE (Beater Car)
1997 GMC Sierra
2007 Honda CBR 600RR
2005 Honda TRX450R
