I was just wondering how fast I can expect to make my car (1/4 mile) without boosting it, over stock. I have a little done to it now, but the performance gains are very minimal. I'm assuming mid 14's are as low as we can get without strapping on a turbo, Kinda wondering if any more N/A mods are really worth it or if the $$$ should be saved for forced induction. My car is a 97 LD9 5-speed Sunfire. The fastest run my GTech has timed so far is a 15.998 1/4 mile time (On an old back road where you can see for miles). Drag strip times would be a little better, but I'll have to wait until they open one here.
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I'm assuming mid 14's are as low as we can get without strapping on a turbo
ive done mid 14's with nothing more than bolt ons..so have others..some have done better...just cost more money than boost
Bone stock LD9 powered j-bodies can usually do low16's to high 15's in the 1/4 mile.
With Bolt-ons it's possible to get in the high to mid 14's.
And with Built N/A LD9's it possible to get J-bodies in the high to mid 13's. But these build ups cost money - because we're talking PnP the head, raise the CR, Performance cams, and Performance springs & valves just to name a few things.
well I have gotten 14.8 with bolt ons. I really sure my car has more to it as well. Now that we have HPT I think low 14's and maybe even high 13's are possible with factory motor. Of course all this is requires a good driver. Very few people are good drivers at the track (reguardless of type of car).
FU Tuning
From the Racing Forum - Top 10 1/4 mile times, for the NA 2.3 or 2.4
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C) 2.3/2.4 L Twin Cam N/A
1. Karo, 13.125 @ 101.01
2. Cavfan1, 14.071 @ 99.97
3. SpeedRacerZ, 14.648 @ 96.01
4. John Higgins, 14.83 @ 91.25
5. Andrew Neufang, 14.896 @ 91.689
6. Owen Stampflee, 14.996 @ 90.44
7. quicksilverz, 15.012 @ 90.78
8. duganz24, 15.018 @ 95.80
9. Qwik2k2z24, 15.096 @ 93.108
10. VIPERREDZED, 15.1160 @ 90.95
I believe there's been a decent number of people who haven't really reported their NA times either. Karo's build from what I've read was a bit extreme as you can imagine to get a number like that, but from the sounds of it with a well built 2.4 you could dip into the high 13s. SpeedRacerZ put down his 14.648 with a built motor but only 9.5:1 compression pistons and a port and polished LD9 head (not the HO head), as well as the secret cams, HO manifold, 65mm throttle body, and some assorted other internal parts, along with the usual bolt ons (although a stock catback exhaust). I think something like 10.5:1 compression and a 2.5" header back exhaust would probably put you much lower into the 14s, or, most likely, the high 13s. Plus, if you go the NA route and build the motor with higher compression, you can always spray it - no reason you can't use nitrous on a higher compression engine as long as you have a good tune. And spraying a 100 shot on a built motor with 10.5:1 compression would probably drive you down into the high 12s (Karo ran a 12.051 on the spray...imagine that). I see nothing wrong with having a 4 cylinder car that's usually run NA and would pull a consistent 13.9 on the 1/4...and when you feel like it, with the flip of a switch, you now run 12s. Realistically, if your car is a daily driver, if you're making the power to run lower than the high 13s...well, it's probably not going to be the most streetable daily driver, especially with front wheel drive.
I'm playing devil's advocate here. I love the potential of NA builds but of course it's cheaper to go with boost. What I always thinking about though is that a) these cars aren't FI from the factory and adding it will always cause problems, and b) most people who go with boost eventually end up doing an engine build anyways. When they start making higher numbers than they would have made NA, the cars also become less streetable, and unless you're building a track only car, that creates a headache in and of itself. I guess I just figure why not build the motor for NA and be satisfied with a reliable ~250 whp for the street, and if you want more for the track, spray it there and see 350+ whp. You'll smoke a hell of a lot of people at the track with that.
Well, from what I can surmise from your post, your first best mod would be to throw that Gtech out the damn window and get yourself to a racetrack for a baseline and some seat time. As for the potential of the LD9, as much as I rag on them for some of their issues, its overall a good motor. When you think that DaFlyinskwirl's eco cav is just on the edge of 13's and all he's got is stock compression, a patriot head, and cams, then clearly the LD9 with its larger displacement should be able to put down some numbers with the right build. What time exactly, no one could tell you for sure, but i'd say a higher compression build with custom cams (you can always do the "Secret Cam Swap" but in my opinion, there are most likely better cam options out there) and a really good port job should be able to get you to low 14's with a heavy car and/or mediocre driving. If you keep the car light by avoiding extraneous crap like audio gear and big obnoxious wheels, and spend enough time at the track to get a real good relationship with the car, mid to high 13's should be possible but as stated, it depends on a lot of factors- altitude, track prep, tire selection, TUNING!, etc...
Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said
^ You forgot to mention DaFlyinskwirl's is using HPT in order to maximize his mods. It also helps that he is on a base model J in which right off the bat & according to GM is approx 140-150lbs lighter then the Z24/LSS. Correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't DaFlyinskwirl using drag tires?
Like Scarab said, throw the G-tech away!
>>>For Sale? Clicky!<<<
-----The orginal Mr.Goodwrench on the JBO since 11/99-----
Why all the hate'in on the G-Tech?
It's fairly accurate, and will give a 'good' result figure. The hard part is getting an accurate weight of the car for the G-Tech to use. If you don't, then it will be off .. and in some cases dramatically off.
If you know of a good resource that completely debunks the use of the G-Tech as a piece of crap let me know. I'd be interested in reading it.
-Matt
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^^And you can always ride across a set of very accurate scales at a truck's weigh station. Think it will cost you $15 - $25.
yup!
Most trash dumps have scales that measure in increments of 20lb's So.. 20lbs may as well be 2 HP..
Then that throws your entire calculation off..
I'm not saying a G-Tech is a replacement for a dyno of track slip, but damn.. It's not horribly inaccurate to the point of avoiding it like the plague either. It gives you a decently accurate approximate that is very helpful.
hahaha could you imagine a G-Tech slip printer!! hahahaha
-Matt
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the ONLY thing a g-tech is good for, is telling you what, if any improvement a mod has made. However, since going uphill-downhill, etc, will affect the readout of the g-tech, the result would only be any good if you did your testing on the same stretch of road, in both directions, at least 3 times each to get a decent average and eliminate as many variables as possible. And given the fact that we all know this would require full-throttle runs on public roads, overall, its just not worth bothering. Because all it will tell you is that your rate of acceleration increased or decreased, and then calculate from there. Its a silly piece of junk that i will never understand why people want to spend money on anyway. Now, for handling, the ones that calculate how many lateral g's you're holding, thats another story. But as far as the quarter mile goes, spend the money on track days and actual dynos.
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^ You forgot to mention DaFlyinskwirl's is using HPT in order to maximize his mods. It also helps that he is on a base model J in which right off the bat & according to GM is approx 140-150lbs lighter then the Z24/LSS. Correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't DaFlyinskwirl using drag tires?
Like Scarab said, throw the G-tech away!
Which is why i said this:
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it depends on a lot of factors- altitude, track prep, tire selection, TUNING!, etc...
I did put in big capital letters "TUNING!" too, because HPT isn't the only way to properly tune a car. Its one of what I consider to be the only 2 ways (editing the oem ecu or running a standalone) that are really worth pursuing, but its not THE only way. When I say what I think a car could be capable of, just for the record, I'm almost always assuming that someone is going to run a tire and suspension setup that is appropriate for the form of racing they're doing (of course, you're right, around here, I should assume nothing of the sort).
Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said
This got more response than I expected..My car is my daily driver, and, i'm going to need to get a beater before I start doing anything drastic to it. I wan't to keep my stock internals for as long as I can, new cams begin as far as I'd consider tearing apart the engine before I own a house (I live in an apartment). Everything I've done to the car so far is function, over "bling", exept for the $2000 (and rising) stereo. I don't care about looking fast, I just want to BE fast. As far as the GTech goes, it does measure G forces (all directions) and the shift lights are nice. I did weight the car at the truck stop in town (I drive roll off trucks for a local company) and I know it's almost 100% set up correctly. There is a Gtech slip printing option, if you buy a cable to hook it to your PC, although I don't do that, it's more of a (did this make a difference) tool than anything else. As for drivability..I'de drive a full blown racecar to work everyday, if I could, my passion for cars is a little too extreme.
stock block
-10:1 compression (stock)
-balance shafts intact and untouched (stock)
patriot performance stage 2 head w/ valvetrain
-1mm oversized valves
-double stacked springs
LevelZero Motorsports triflow cams
ARP headstuds
stock OEM headgasket
rksport intake
stock intake manifold
tsudo 4-2-1 header, 3" exhaust
rksport motor mounts
prothane trans mounts
SPEC stage 3 clutch
fidanza flywheel
stock differential (OPEN)
prothane A-arm bushings
ford green top (440cc) injectors
stock ICM
stock coils
HPT
as for drag tires I'm on 15" steelies wrapped with BFGoodrich T/A drag radials. They aren't slicks. Be sure to specify because there is a pretty big difference. My tires are street legal and DOT approved.
I've been driving with them on the street for a couple weeks now. they suck in turns but own for straight line traction
with above mods:
average 1/4 mile is 14.1xs @ high 95mph, 96mph
best time 1/4 mile is 14.004 @ 96mph
average 60' is 2.1-2.0
best 60' is 1.99
average 1/8 is 9.0 @76mph
best 1/8 is 8.9 @ 77mph
a built up Z despite its heavier weight should be able to hit 13s all motor
