ive been doing a lot of reading and searching, ive not really seen a discussion on any of this, as well it looks like a lot of people dont know about things.
ok first off, the gm build book. i know a lot of people know about it but have you guys really read it? there is a lot of great info in it. one thing id like to bring to mind is their n/a build with roush. here is an excerpt.

Roush Industries, in conjunction with GM Racing, has
done development and testing of a naturally aspirated
ECOTEC race engine. The engine generates
approximately 325 hp on E85 or 340 hp methanol.
At this time, neither GM nor any aftermarket companies
offer the modified production blocks and heads used in this
application. Roush Industries in Livonia, Michigan offers
this complete engine package for sale.
The base for the naturally aspirated race engine is a
complete production L61 (2.2L), LE5 (2.4L) or LSJ (2.0L
supercharged) ECOTEC engine. The block is bored to
88.9 mm (3.500 in) and sleeved. We use a productionreplacement
Eagle crank for improved longevity, although
it is possible to retain the production L61 or LE5 crank. The
resulting displacement for the engine is 143.4 cubic
inches.
The production head from a L61 (2.2L), LE5 (2.4L) or LSJ
(2.0L supercharged) ECOTEC engine is ported specifically
for this naturally aspirated application and machined to
match a 88.9 mm bore size and accept high-lift camshafts.
Additional long block parts include:
ARP headstuds and fasteners
Eagle forged steel crank and connecting rods
(Crank part number 2237245765,
Rods part number CRS5765C3D)
JE forged aluminum pistons
Cometic head gasket
Roush fabricated oil pan and front engine plate
Comp Cams billet race camshafts
(Intake 8780 Exhaust 8781)
GM Performance Parts adjustable cam gears
(part number 88958613)
Ferrea stainless steel valves and keepers
(F806695. F806694, K10036)
PSI valve springs (CT-1530ML)
Trick Titanium retainers (KRERT001)
For induction, we have used a TWM K20 intake, modified
to fit this application, or a Kinsler individual runner intake
for ECOTEC. The exhaust manifold is custom fabricated
by Roush Industries.


now i must be missing something but that doesnt look like anything insane, other than the part about the block/heads since we know there is differences in the l61 vs. lsj head, and to be putting down 325 ponies, im surprised that no one has copied the build.

this motor was used in the power boat racing circuit.
link here ecotec race engines win in power boat racing

reading in there it says it turns 9-10k rpms!!



another build to bring to the table is from 02! with the quest for 800hp and them actually doing it with somewhat of ease. i think the craziest part of the build is where they had to modify the head to quit lifting at the ends, that could be taken care of by running the lsj or lk9 head for those not willing to do that kind of modifications. i mean 750hp isnt that far of a reach esp when they did it on only 24psi.
Birth of the Ultimate Import Fighter

we are going into 09 with this kinda info and yet we still are swingin from some people's nuts with their sub 500hp builds. i guess what im trying to say is i dont understand why people are so shocked when those numbers are put down, esp since there is a very very select few, everyone and their mothers should be puttin down numbers like that and it should be a super common build. hondas run around all day putting down those numbers and we have the info and support for it yet there are only a handful.






GM did a lot of leg work so people do your research cuz there is a lot of great info out there.






anything else you guys have please bring it to the thread, i had more stuff to put down but lost my train of thought with my mom asking me to help do something for the past hour while i was in the middle of this.

sorry double posted.


Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Saturday, December 27, 2008 2:34 PM


FU Tuning

Sorry, but not everyone and there mothers have the money to spend to get those numbers. Same in the honda world not everyone and there mothers are doing it. Lots yes. Unless you have a motor shop in your garage it cost money to get the machine work done to do the things needed. We own JBody's and most do because it is a cheap car to won and mod. If half the owners of J's had the money to build those motors they would own different cars.

Besides I don;t want a Ecotec anyways.



FU Tuning

I have never been shocked once when someone put down 400+ whp. I was very impressed, however, when whatever his name was put down ~550 whp on pump gas in a quad4. You've always seemed like a pretty intelligent person Gary, but I don't know why you think an ECOTEC built to spin 10,000 RPMs would be even remotely streetable...nevermind the cost aspect of such a build. It's simply impractical on all accounts to expect anyone here other than the few with purpose built drag cars to build such an engine. Hondas put down such crazy horsepower numbers on the street because the engine has the technology to spin those kinds of RPMs and retain streetability. Ferrari (maybe Nissan too) is the only other company I am aware of with a technology similar to do what Hondas can do with street engines.

I have to agree with John. For the price of building such a NA engine, I could own a car that doesn't trip over its own feet in corners and still out-run a J-body with this low torque 340hp powerplant in a straight line. These engine builds should be left to real race cars that have to follow very strict rules.

But I do agree with one of your points. People need to stop being surprised or impressed when someone makes 400+ whp, especially when it's done with E85, VP113, Q16, methanol, etc, and when they make that kind of power at higher RPMs.




I have no signiture

one thing i think needs pointed out...

tuning.

gm and roush no doubt had hundreds of hours in tuning those engines and with a standalone setup, not the POS ecm's we get to use with a program lacking tables we cant even see.

the 400+ crowd out there is basically doing it on the stock computer, except for hahn of course, but look at that beast at 550+ and mid 10'
s... its certainly impressing me.



Are you scared of the changes coming? The answer is on the inside.

John Higgins wrote:Sorry, but not everyone and there mothers have the money to spend to get those numbers. Same in the honda world not everyone and there mothers are doing it. Lots yes. Unless you have a motor shop in your garage it cost money to get the machine work done to do the things needed. We own JBody's and most do because it is a cheap car to won and mod. If half the owners of J's had the money to build those motors they would own different cars.

Besides I don;t want a Ecotec anyways.

this def was not targeted toward you john. the mentality between you and i are on total different wavelengths.

but to respond. i see plenty of money dumped on a bunch of crap around here, enough to get further than some have gone. when i mentioned mimic gm, i meant follow suit, i didnt mean we all should spend as much as them or go to the extent they have. i really didnt mean to group EVERYONE together, i was mostly pointing to those that think they are badass or hardcore racers with their "built" motors. i know not everyone here is goin balls to the walls and some look to add a little fun to their j while keeping it safe, but their are the people im talkin about.


also the honda boys dont all have a motor shop to get this stuff done, i know plenty of people that have done k-swaps in their garage or boosted the hell outta their motor like no j has seen yet, some are younger than i am. the owning different cars thing applies to every other platform and is totally incorrect, if that statement was even close to true then how come any even bother to drop 3k on motor work, some more on headwork, and another 3-4k on turbo setup. that there is a new car. why would anyone own a civic when instead of dumping the money just go buy a mustang..

Whalesac wrote:I have never been shocked once when someone put down 400+ whp. I was very impressed, however, when whatever his name was put down ~550 whp on pump gas in a quad4. You've always seemed like a pretty intelligent person Gary, but I don't know why you think an ECOTEC built to spin 10,000 RPMs would be even remotely streetable...nevermind the cost aspect of such a build. It's simply impractical on all accounts to expect anyone here other than the few with purpose built drag cars to build such an engine. Hondas put down such crazy horsepower numbers on the street because the engine has the technology to spin those kinds of RPMs and retain streetability. Ferrari (maybe Nissan too) is the only other company I am aware of with a technology similar to do what Hondas can do with street engines.

I have to agree with John. For the price of building such a NA engine, I could own a car that doesn't trip over its own feet in corners and still out-run a J-body with this low torque 340hp powerplant in a straight line. These engine builds should be left to real race cars that have to follow very strict rules.

But I do agree with one of your points. People need to stop being surprised or impressed when someone makes 400+ whp, especially when it's done with E85, VP113, Q16, methanol, etc, and when they make that kind of power at higher RPMs.

first off i never mentioned streetability. that motor was for a boat as well. i was just pointing out that there is definitely more there than people on this board have touched on.
i guess until i see some 12 second n/a runs everything here is garbage. we have the technology but i feel we are stuck as cavemen trying to roll the square rock...


im gonna go play in a different sandbox now, ive got HO cams to put in my 2.4 tomorrow, the car will always be a dd, i just wish i had more time to put the 086 head on it and switch over to e85. id drive the @!#$ outta that. im actually disappointed that i couldnt find wilder cams to drop in there right now. if i didnt have such a communist for a step dad id actually have stuff done. i did my 5 speed swap in my driveway in the snow while he wouldnt allow me to put my car in the garage to work.


ill be continuing my ecotec build while not being influenced by the magical hurdle this forum seems to have.

Oh Gary... you're missing the point bud...

Who the hell wants a 5-600hp Jbody? Really?

Nobody, it'd be like you or I running in the special olympics. Even if we set a record, we'd still be running in the special olympics. That kind of power in a J is just silly and some kind of weird cover up for not having a dick that reaches the zipper of your pants.






Spyhunter ftfw.

Quote:

but to respond. i see plenty of money dumped on a bunch of crap around here, enough to get further than some have gone. when i mentioned mimic gm, i meant follow suit, i didnt mean we all should spend as much as them or go to the extent they have. i really didnt mean to group EVERYONE together, i was mostly pointing to those that think they are badass or hardcore racers with their "built" motors. i know not everyone here is goin balls to the walls and some look to add a little fun to their j while keeping it safe, but their are the people im talkin about

I never meant it that no j owner will never put that kind of money in there car. There is people that have and will. Those are usually the true hardcore J owners. There is some of us who will always own a J (I know I will).

I think another good point was brought up about tuning. TO me it seems as it we (the J world) is stepping up more and more. Maybe not as much as other cars, but hey I don;t think we ever will. We got a late start.



FU Tuning

KFLO wrote:

Who the hell wants a 5-600hp Jbody? Really?




Spyhunter ftfw.

i would love to have one.

KFLO wrote:Oh Gary... you're missing the point bud...

Who the hell wants a 5-600hp Jbody? Really?

Nobody, it'd be like you or I running in the special olympics. Even if we set a record, we'd still be running in the special olympics. That kind of power in a J is just silly and some kind of weird cover up for not having a dick that reaches the zipper of your pants.






Spyhunter ftfw.

LMAO than by the same account who would want an N/A mid 13 second 200whp beretta?

what you drive has absolutely nothing to do with it. a lot of people do it to 'show up' the 'big boys'. and personally... id love to have a 500whp cavalier, beretta, geo or a go-kart for that matter. i wouldnt care what people saw nor thought. it would be sweet IMO.



Are you scared of the changes coming? The answer is on the inside.

Sorry I would not want a 500whp geo. just wouldn't. heck I don't even want a 500whp cavalier, just 350whp.



FU Tuning

^^^ Yeah, it would be like the 1400 HP TA in the other cars forum! Totally smoking the tires every time he got on the gas!

hmmm...i would want a cavi with 500 whp...i just like em...idk why, just do...i know there are better cars for the money, and better engines to work on, but i like cavi's...most ppl wouldn't want a super fast cavalier...i think thats why i do...i like going against the flow.(not to say i wouldn't LOVE a fast expensive car(new 370z, or camaro ss)...but its easy to see how one of those cars could get that much power...but a cavi?...not so common. its all opinion...i'm sure i'll get comments at me for this, saying i'm dumb, but i'm not telling you to want it...just saying i do.

z yaaaa wrote:

KFLO wrote:Oh Gary... you're missing the point bud...

Who the hell wants a 5-600hp Jbody? Really?

Nobody, it'd be like you or I running in the special olympics. Even if we set a record, we'd still be running in the special olympics. That kind of power in a J is just silly and some kind of weird cover up for not having a dick that reaches the zipper of your pants.






Spyhunter ftfw.

LMAO than by the same account who would want an N/A mid 13 second 200whp beretta?

what you drive has absolutely nothing to do with it. a lot of people do it to 'show up' the 'big boys'. and personally... id love to have a 500whp cavalier, beretta, geo or a go-kart for that matter. i wouldnt care what people saw nor thought. it would be sweet IMO.

i think you missed kurt's sarcasm







and as for the tuning issue, ive had some wild ideas (prob think im crazy) to adapt another car's pcm to our car. hardwire the pcm in, kinda like hondas do when switching over from obd2 to obd1 even tho they have it easy with conversion harnesses. but other cars like dsm's run gm mafs and there are similarities between sensor voltage outputs and how things are read to communicate with the computer. the simplest solution ive thought up would be to use a 2.4 s/c pcm/tune/harness to run the ecotec to have actual map based control over the ecotec. if you wanted to get more extreme go back to using the other platforms tuning abilities with either using something that runs off the same crank signal/wheel or going external to mimic their reading. the idea might sound crazy but it actually might be somewhat simplier than trying to start from scratch with ms. ive looked into ms but no one ive talked to personally will touch it, they have never delt with it and have never had anyone else use it.

its time to do some more solo work i guess. and i gotta slow down on posting, 2 left after this one

It would be easier and cheaper to start from scratch with MS than trying to adapt another cars ECM to a jbody.

RyZ96 wrote:It would be easier and cheaper to start from scratch with MS than trying to adapt another cars ECM to a jbody.

idk about that. think about u and i both already have hpt correct. well say i find a balt ss like the one my buddy just wrecked and take the motor, trans, and wiring up till the gauges and drop it in the j. thats just as hard as any other ecotec swap in a pre 99 but now we have the maf/map tuning instead of alpha n. as well half these j's have no power options which makes for an easier swap and be lighter. but also like i said, i like the ms idea, but i have no one there to lend a hand, no one knows it, no one has touched it. also i havent really talked to many people or tuners but ms doesnt look to be their favorite option for anything. idk im rambling and bringin up things i will never get into unless i come along a large sum of money and have my own place to do things.


idk maybe im crazy and bein stupid but yrs ago if someone came up and said im dropping a k20 in my civic hatch people would look at them like they were insane and just talkin out their ass, now its everywhere.


hopefully next yr i move off campus with some buddies and do some work

You know that the black car used to have MS on it right?? and my old turbo 2200?


Heres the problem with your SS swap. one the trans mounting points are different, the f35 will not bolt up in anyway without custom mounts into a jbody chassis.
two if your going to use the f23, you need to use the shim between the lsj engine and the f35, or your clutch will not work.
you would need the cluster(IPC) from the Cobalt, possibly abs module, possibly the steering module, bcm, ecm. I have not looked into the theft lock much of the LSJ equipped cars, but I know that the serial data communicates between ALL those modules. There is a slight chance that without all them, it will not unlock. I have a few communication codes and am having trouble getting the ECM to take a flash with HPT. The comm codes are within the ABS mod, and steering MOD and IPC.


k20 swaps are not as easy as you think they are. They are just sought after, which means parts are available for it, unlike jbodies. You realize that the ONLY way to tune a k20 is with an 02-05 RSX type S ECU with Hondata (900+dollars for hondata alone) yeah you can use piggybacks like safc and such, but for obvious reasons they suck.. k20's into EF's require weld in mounts, aftermarket header (only 2 options besides custom). And a lot of times you have to either get aftermarket axles, make axles from 4 different axles, or custom axles... People do k20 into civics because Civics are MUCH MUCH better chassis to begin with. lighter and better suspension

MS is easy to tune, if you know what you are doing. Which REQUIRES a lot of reading and learning. A lot of the information the MS sites can be hard to understand, but learning about it is beneficial if your going to try it.

Quite a few of the parts on that list look familiar

I wish I had the eagle crank however the stock crank will take more power than I'll likely put towards it. I think GM rated the stock crank for 550hp...


12.770 @ 111.99 Intercooled Eaton M62

The problem seems to be that your average car owner doesnt want to step beyond the ordinary- that puts you in a new spot where you can ask other people for a "how-to" or get someone else to do the thinking and give an easy walk through- this puts most people out of their comfort-zone without a safety net of sorts.
I am not sure why someone asking about crazy power would be thinking twice about standalone, or trying to come up with an easier or bolt in/plug in solution. You cant just use bandaid solutions to overcome major shortfalls in a platforms design. To build something over the top you cant worry about whats the easier way.
BTW MegaSquirt is very well liked in a few car communities and has been used on some very wild builds, it works quite well and has as many "options" as someone cares to modify the board. I have heard of people who have modified them to run full electronic transmissions and traction control for example using external boards etc.

At this point I'm still not sure what the point of this thread is actually??
People will go as far as they feel comfortable and can afford, if that doesnt suit you then i guess its time you show everyone how its done
(dont take this as a personal attack)


_





Now with northstar V8, IRS, 20's n 22's

Gary. I agrre with you. Being a 2.4 guy I often wish I had some of the resources available the ecotec crowd does. They should milk this for all it is worth. It does not seem GM began to get serious about the sport compact market until the cobalt. The sc kit for the eco powered jbodys would not even exist if it were not a LSJ after thought.. It was a matter of convienence not because they care about those of us with jbodys. They would much rather are platform remain in the stone age so we have a desire for this new cobalt. It simply is not profitable for them to promote anything but their new engine and new car.



FORGET GIRLS GONE WILD WE HAVE GOVERNMENT SPENDING GONE WILD!

Wade Jarvis wrote:Gary. I agrre with you. Being a 2.4 guy I often wish I had some of the resources available the ecotec crowd does. They should milk this for all it is worth. It does not seem GM began to get serious about the sport compact market until the cobalt. The sc kit for the eco powered jbodys would not even exist if it were not a LSJ after thought.. It was a matter of convienence not because they care about those of us with jbodys. They would much rather are platform remain in the stone age so we have a desire for this new cobalt. It simply is not profitable for them to promote anything but their new engine and new car.

I don;t competely agree with that. I thik GM started getting serious in Sportcompacts in the JBody time, but realized they waited too long. The Delta and Ecotec was already coming. instead of throwing money at a Quad racing program it would make much more sense to do so in the Ecotec. If Gm had not gotten serious when I'm saying we would never had gotten the LD9 charger. I think the Ld9 charger lead to the Ecotec charger.



FU Tuning

If I could only get a hold of those Oldsmobile Quad-4 Rocket parts.




>>>For Sale? Clicky!<<<
-----The orginal Mr.Goodwrench on the JBO since 11/99-----

1997ztwo4 wrote:The problem seems to be that your average car owner doesnt want to step beyond the ordinary- that puts you in a new spot where you can ask other people for a "how-to" or get someone else to do the thinking and give an easy walk through- this puts most people out of their comfort-zone without a safety net of sorts.
I am not sure why someone asking about crazy power would be thinking twice about standalone, or trying to come up with an easier or bolt in/plug in solution. You cant just use bandaid solutions to overcome major shortfalls in a platforms design. To build something over the top you cant worry about whats the easier way.
BTW MegaSquirt is very well liked in a few car communities and has been used on some very wild builds, it works quite well and has as many "options" as someone cares to modify the board. I have heard of people who have modified them to run full electronic transmissions and traction control for example using external boards etc.

I have to agree here. most people won't go beyond the bolt-on stage before giving up on making more power, because they either don't want to spend the money or are unsure of their mechanical skills and don't want to break anything. After all, you have to remember these are still cars that cost people real money that most need to drive around and get to and from places in. Yeah, a lot of guys here have two or three cars, but most of us just have one set of wheels. It's just better to an enthusiast to have a DD with a few mods and bolt-ons than to run a stock car. With my 92, I wouldn't go wild with it, it's just too old and there are too many little things wrong with it. But I'm still putting in a couple hundred dollars to make it run a little better and look a little nicer. Since I only paid $500 for it, I think I could afford a few extras on top of that. Everything else is just maintenance until I an afford a better car.


2010 Honda Fit LX

hmmmm well i guess im in the wrong forum?? this is performance right? maybe some people should go hang out in maintenance instead of this forum. this wasnt supposed to be a discussion over how people cant grow a set and work on their cars. i just want to bring attention to the info we have at hand and maybe arise some more interest into a real build.

ive got 3 j's in my driveway, 2 may be totalled but i did have 2 that were drivable at one point with the intention to dd one and build the other. im not playing with little kid stuff anymore, its game time.

Roush was making 1500+ hp on the 2.0L Eco about 4 years ago. Roush has been building EcoTec motors available to the public for a long time now.


- 93 mph in the 1/8 mile
Member of J-Body Of Michigan.