hey i tried to revive an old post but no one seems to be reading it, so here goes.....

i just swapped over to the 2.3 tb, and while i am enjoying the overall gain of the swap, i am starting to miss my low end torque that i USED to have. so i have come to understand that getting a header/full exhaust is a good way to balance out the loss of the torque.

my question is, are there any other ways to help out my low end torque.

get rid of the tb



Im a Xbox 360 fanboy...and damn proud of it!!

so nothing can be done execept the header?

ok on that note is there a decent 4-2-1 style header for the 2200?

From personal experience getting a header through exhaust is going to reduce your low end tq. By increasing the airflow so much you are going to lose the backpressure that you will want to gain that tq you are desiring. If you want low end tq then you will have to get HP Tuners and tune your fuel mapping to shift your tq curve. But hey then again you could listen to everyone and think that an i/h/e is what makes a car gain performance or you can take advice from a person that is experienced and will tell you that with out tuning you aren't going to be getting much if any gain and all of it will be at the top end of your power curve, which is the weak spot on the OHV motor.

i was under the impression that 4-1 headers helped out the top end and 4-2-1 were good to go for the low end of the powerband, is this not true?

it can, but i dont think anyone makes one for js. the way the 4-2-1 header helps its out over a 4-1 header is that it has a scavanging affect. atleast if it is an equal length header, and the tubes are atleast 14" long. (lengths must be in 7" incremements for scavanging to work properly as the firings are 7" if tubing apart) wat it does is the exhaust from the next firing engine will cause a vacuum on the tubes it passes, thus sucking the eahaust out of the previously fired cylinder. the more exhaust that is able to be pulled out, enhances the amount of air/fuel able to be ingested into that cylinder on the intake stroke

Backpresure is bad! You want velocity, not backpressure. This velocity comes on at different rpm, depending upon the diameter of your exhust.

OBX makes a stainless steel 4-2-1 header. This will be better than the stock manifold. It should help with low end torque, along with a full exhust. If you don't care about top end performance, get a full 2" exhaust(including a high flow cat). Find a straight through design muffler and a glasspack/resonator and mandrel bent tubing if available (available through Summit Racing or Jegg's in J & U bends). Everyone says 2 1/4", which is good for across the board general gains, which is true, but a 2" will build a little more low end at the expence of top end horsepower. This system is only slightly bigger than the stock system, but with much less backpressure. You should notice a slight gain on the top end with this set-up, but more at the low end.

Go back to your stock TB, accoring to your profile you don't have the mods needed to support the bigger TB. I wouldn't reccomend the TB, unless you have the normal bolt-ons (i/h/e), roller rocker arms(or cam swap) and a ported head. The stock head just wont flow the volume of air needed to justify the volume of air the 56mm TB provides, thus the velocity is lost and so is the low end torque.

I will agree with the fact that velocity is good to create power when you have the fuel and ignition mods to match that velocity. The backpressure is the way to make up for when you don't have those modifications. Trust me I've been there I've waisted my money and it wasn't worth it in the end.

I had an OHV. I went the exact route that Luke is trying. I did a tri-y header -> cat -> exhaust, manifold -> throtle body -> intake -> rockers -> cams. And you know what happened. Jack @!#$ happened. The did make more power but it was not worth it at all.

So what happend, the car got passed onto another person. That person changed injectors, plugs, wires, and ran HP Tuners with a good tune and FINALLY after all of that it gained back all the power that it should have had.

Now when I mention performance I am talking 1/4 mile performance. The OHV car in hot weather ran its stock times after all of those mods I did and in really cold weather would see a performance gain. Once the guy finished the tune he was seeing over a second and a half faster in times. That's why I hate to see people waiste their money on all of these mods that nobody is really spending the time to understand what the modifcation is doing to the car and trying ot figure out the over all effect.

Performance is a complete calculation of physics equations. I am happy that I am learning them now and getting an understanding of what actually has to be done to gain rather than listening to all this stuff and spending money hoping that the information I am told will work. There are tons of books out there that don't cost much money that will teach you about all of this stuff. Read up it is worth the $15 invested in a book to realize how much you will save in the end on the car.

alright here, 2.3 tb is coming off untill i can get my p&p and exhaust done.

madjack (or anyone who cares to answer), couple of questions here.

1, will the p&p help out any specific area of my power band? or does it help in just one area ie. top end/low end/midrange

2.if i get a p&p done are there different types? i hear things such as a mild p&p, is there such a thing as an aggressive p&p or for that matter too aggressive of a p&p.

3.if i am going to bother with the work of a p&p i will probably invest in oversize valves, would you reccomend this with so few supporting mods, or does it matter.

4. in which order of modification do you think it would be most logical to proceed in. ( exhaust first or p&p first or whatever you suggest.) and if you wouldnt mind give your reasoning behind the suggestion, i would like to attempt to understand the suggestions as best i can.

fyi, this motor/tranny combo has just above 110k mi on it so i dont think this motor is going to see boost, and if i did boost i would probably just swap in an eco. also my plans are not to have a car built for any one purpose, it is a daily driver and i need to keep it resonably reliable. so no i am not building a 1/4 mile screamer here.(as if i could with the ohv....lol) my main goal for this car is to keep a very fun to drive car, that still gets me some good mileage and reliability.

thanx guys,


luke

bump......

bumpidy bump

Look into fuel mods, you have all air mods and nothing else supporting all this flow.

can we stop with the low-end torque threads? newsflash, you're not pulling tree stumps, which is where low end is important. You want a fast car, and the important part there is the mid-to-high end. Look at increasing the overall powerband, not the low end.




Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said

umm, excuse me but low end torque is not just for pulling power. without low end torque, u have no take off. ask any NHRA drag car driver and he will tell u torque is just as if not more important than horsepower

sorry guys, i didnt realize that this was such a touchy topic. eventualy i plan to boost my car, but as of right now i dont know nearly enough about boosting a car that isnt designed to handle that boost. so my thoughts were to put together a fun daily driver, not nesccesarily a fast car. and since i mostly drive in the city (stop and go type traffic) i figured that beefing up my low to midrange was going to do that for me. i rarely ever push my car all the way to the redline. and im not all about WOT type driving.

even when i eventually boost my car, its not going to be anything crazy. just a mild setup, you know to well......give me a boost. lol

look, if there are no other practical ways to beef up my low end torque then fine, thats it-done deal. i will (when finances permit) follow the advice given here, at least until i boost.

scarab- mabey your right, perhaps i am focusing on the wrong areas, its just the only area where i know to start.

i would also still appreciate it if someone would still answer my p&p questions listed above.

sunfirepower97 wrote:umm, excuse me but low end torque is not just for pulling power. without low end torque, u have no take off. ask any NHRA drag car driver and he will tell u torque is just as if not more important than horsepower

I never said torque wasn't important. I just differ as to WHERE its important. Technically, hp doesn't even exist, its an arbitrary system of measurement used to express how torque is applied over an rpm range. If you have two motors that make the same torque, but their peak torque is at two different places, say, one engine makes 200 ft-lbs at 2500 rpm, and one makes 200 ft-lbs at 4000 rpm, the second will have a higher hp value. And last I checked, NHRA cars aren't launching at 2000 rpm

HP = Torque x RPM/5252

So the first motor with the "low end torque" would have 200 x 2500 / 5252 = 95 hp

The second motor with the mid-high range torque (the same amount, mind you) would have 200 x 4000 / 5252 = 152 hp

Now you tell me, where do you want your powerband?

Luke, I don't mean to bust your balls, its just that this topic is a particular pet peeve of mine because it really shows how many people truly don't understand how an engine really operates. Especially around here, torque has become a shining lamp for the J owner to swing around as one of the only things he has that a honda doesn't. In truth though, that low end torque isn't helping them in a race at all, its almost entirely the mid-high range torque that's getting the job done.

In your case, I'd think of it this way, if all you do is stop and go traffic, then really, what do you need ANY power for? You're talking about shelling out a good chunk of change just to try and get a little more pep back, when apparently, you don't really drive in a spirited fashion anyway.... It sort of akin to a blind man buying works of art... its just for the sake of having them, and he spent all that money on something he can't fully enjoy. My advice to you is to get away and do a track day or something, maybe try autocross, and then see if you like it. The car hobby is a colossal waste of money when viewed from any sane person's perspective, but its even more of a waste if you want to make more power just to go light to light with a bunch of commuters.




Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said

agreed,
tha 2.2 is an overall waste of change 2 start with....my first cav was a 96 4 door 2.2.....hahaha......so i bought me a Z, and for the money you invest with the OHV, you could buy a Z and put on i/e and be faster than your heavily modded 2.2.... Just my cheap 2 cents....


9.6--1/8 mile @ 5 psi

scarab: ok thank your for clearing that up. just so u know im not one of those dumb ass "wanna be ricers" that dont know anything bout power n engine building, i've been on a dirt traxck race team for a few years, plus i've been a mechanic for almost three years, 2 of those years on diesel. but there's just some thing i dont quite fully understand as of yet. but now i get where your coming from