but wont stay running
(edit: 1996 2.2L, converted to 93 DIS, running a Holley Commander 950PRO)
we have a few theories as to why she wont idle for us:
1) not enough air, too much fuel.
tried increasing the IAC values at idle to see if we could get enough air for the amount of fuel. Not working. I'm starting to wonder if my IAC wiring is correct, like it wont even open at all. We have to pump the throttle to keep the engine running.
2) EGR Valve is stuck open. OK, when the EGR is not getting any signal at all, is it in a state of rest? Does that mean its going to sit in the same position it was last left in, or does it return back to a closed position? This isn't such a huge deal, because I know I can always make an EGR block off plate, but it'd be nice to know! Also, we're getting some backfire back out the intake. I know this is generally too much fuel being dumped, but Im wondering if its not so much that, but maybe the fact the EGR is open and dumping unburnt fuel back into the IM.
3) We converted the load sensing type to Alpha-N tuning. I know, I know, NOT GOOD for boost. However, we were having a lot of trouble adjusting the Base Fuel Map when using the Speed Density tuning. At least with Alpha-N we could get it to remain running by pumping the throttle. We want to get it to idle first before we do anything else. (actually, thats all I care about right now anyway) You can rev it as high as you want, and it stays running, but get back down to idle, and she quits. dammitt!
4) Holy F!! When you rev it all the way thru the RPM's, she sounds BADASS! WOW! You can hear the turbo spooling, and that 3" exhaust just barks (no rice-burner bark either) when you stand at the back.
5) All my gauges work.
Stock Tachometer does not, but my Autometer Tach works flawlessly. Quick response, I love it. Boost gauge showed vacuum for the first time since... well, since I've owned the damn thing.
6) Do you think my trigger angle is set incorrectly? We had the timing light on the crank and its showing roughly 15-22 degrees advance. Not sure what the trigger angle is set to, nor the advance on the holley, but we're getting something decent. What is the trigger angle for an LN2? I've heard 70, I've heard 60, but I wouldn't mind a more definite answer.
Anyway, just looking for some feedback. What should I try next? We've @!#$ with values in the idle cells (at least where the holley manual told us to) we've tried post start enrichment values, and just about everything else.
Its great to finally get some REAL progress. I mean, this is a huge hurdle I've overcome in one night. I was uneasy about cranking it over.
WOO HOO!!
Edited 3 time(s). Last edited Tuesday, June 27, 2006 9:20 PM
I have no idea... but I have to say!!! It's SOOOOO F#$kin SWEEET! I'm going to turbo my quad4 so i'll just be replacing the engine prolly every year.
Great, I'm glad you got it running. I'm not sure if this matters, but when i first started mine for the first time after the rebuild, (stock computer, slightly larger injectors) it wouldn't idle either, but after it warmed up, and anytime after that, it did. Maybe my stock computer compensated for the slightly larger injectors, their only like 20 cc more. then stock.
Anyways, it does sound like too much fuel. Do you have a wideband gauge? What does it show right before it dies when it's trying to idle?
This is the best news you've reported in a while.
Here are some things you can try to eliminate the problem.
(1) Disconnect the 5V ignition bypass wire. This puts timing at TDC (or maybe 10 deg BTDC). Then you can work on making it idle. You can also check the timing. If it's at 0 deg, use 60 for the reference angle. If it's at 10 deg BTDC, use 70 deg for the reference (trigger) angle.
(2) If the engine runs when you rapidly pump the throttle but stalls otherwise, that usually means you're too lean. The acceleration enrichment adds more fuel during throttle opening and that usually kills a too rich engine.
(3) If you're thinking the problem is with airflow, force the throttle plate open. I've sometimes connected a spare TPS sensor so the computer thinks the throttle is closed.
(4) IAC wiring can be tricky. If any pair of wires is reversed the IAC works backward. If there's any way to check IAC, maybe command it open / closed with the laptop, you should confirm that it works correctly. A GM ecm will usually keep increasing idle speed if the valve is wired backwards.
(5) Use carburetor cleaner or CRC Brakeclean in a green can to add fuel if you think the engine's too lean. You can gently spray some in the TB to just add a little fuel. Or if you have a spare TPS you can connect it and snap it open to trick the ecm into enabling acceleration enrichment and dumping more fuel.
Gotta run... Got buses to fix.
-->Slow
Awesome news Steve! Hopefully you can get this small glitch sorted quickly and move on to more important things.
15.3 @ 89.97mph, 14's on the way?
slow, thanks for the advice
thats awesome!
we've increased the flow substantially, however these are only the stock 17#r's or whatever, just to get the car to idle. I know its going to need more PW then what the basemap has.
Also, the best way I can think of to check my IAC wiring is with my Noid Bulb kit. It comes with a GM IAC test bulb. I hooked it up lastnight and I got 2 red's. (IIRC, I should be getting 2 green)
its entirely possible that I used the Holley diagram in place of my stock diagram on the IAC side of things. (doh!) We tried commanding it to open more and more, but it never did get us anywhere. So, more to investigate there.
also, when I bought my Mantapart Plenum off of Todd, it didnt come with a Throttle Body return spring. So, there's a bit of play there, and sometimes it will stick open. No biggie, I realise this is definately going to play a factor in tuning. Tonight I'm getting a whole TB for free
sweet, hookups rock.
Can anyone confirm what the EGR valve would be doing right now? Whether its open or closed? Would it be at rest in its last position when the car actually HAD an EGR?
I'm also going to try the spare TPS thing, thats brilliant. At least that way we can eliminate the acceleration enrichment, and continue working on the idle cells.
also what I noticed once it fired and was running, that the timing would actually retard.
it would go from say 15 deg. BTDC, to about 10 or so.
any thoughts on that?
also, as per the spark map, the timing would change as the RPM changed, so it was kinda bouncing all over the place due to the accel. enrichment keeping the car running.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edited Wednesday, June 28, 2006 2:13 PM
the wideband gauge is actually showing VERY lean, and unfortunately with the way I have it hooked up, we wont actually be getting a reading until the sensor heats up and the car is running/idling. another oops that I need to tend to eventually.
steve, you have the AEM gauge, correct? what does the maunal say for calibrating it? I just wannamake sure I did it right, and I can't find it online. If I find a PDF file I will repost or pm you, thanks buddy.
HP Tuners | Garrett T3/T04B | 2.5" Charge Pipes | 2.5" Downpipe | 650 Injectors | HO Manifold | Addco front/rear | Motor Mounts | HKS SSQV | Spec stage 3 | AEM UEGO Wideband | Team Green LSD | FMIC | 2.3 cams | 2.3 oil pump swap | 280WHP | Now ECOTECED
ok, a bit of an update.
checked the IAC wiring, and it was fine.
unplugged the TPS and nothing really changed, it just never started.
kept the TPS uplugged and then unplugged my bypass wire. she fired right away, and sat idling for like 10 minutes while we burped the cooling system.
wicked.
plugged the tps back in, and she kept running.
plugged the bypass back in, and it wouldn't start again. So, I screwed around with my crank trigger angle, and found that 50 degrees allowed the car to start.
You can tell its not running much advance, I was too excited to go check the timing, but it wasn't much. I'm thinking either I'll adjust the crank trigger angle, or just advance the timing a bit more.
so all in all, she's running.
my problem now is the hesitation I get when I apply throttle. The Holley manual says I need to adjust the rest of my fuel map, as it is too lean.
lots of cool things to play with, and lots of @!#$ going on at once
Im gonna read over my manual again and double check everything I've done.
I had a bit of an exhaust leak, but that seems to be fixed now
congrats mang. you crazy canadian
anyone know the stock pulse width at idle on a 2.2?
Looking at the logs of the Cav from when it had stock injectors and no turbo, at 900 rpm and 30 kPa IPW is ranging from 1.4 to 1.6 ms. Spark is at 38 deg, coolant temp is at 92 deg C. At 2600 RPM, 100kPa, closed loop, spark is at 34.5 deg and IPW is at 7.51 ms. No guarantee that the spark is right. This is a very early run.
If your timing is too retarded, you will be adding fuel everywhere and you'll be down on power. O2 reading will tend to look lean until you've added a bunch of fuel, and acceleration enrichment may require very large values. Take the time to get the base timing angle correct. If you can fill the timing tables with zero's, you might be able to measure the difference between base angle and what your setting is.
Is there an rpm setting for turning on the computer controlled timing? Try setting that to about 650-700 RPM if the car doesn't want to start.
HTH
-->Slow
apparently the holley takes over after 500 rpm, and timing while cranking is 6 degrees.. apparently.
I'll try the 0 degree thing and go from there.
I've changed my crank trigger angle from 50 up to 60 and it still fires just as nicely.
I now have a surging idle, which generally means too lean or too rich. I've gone up and down the cells both ways, and neither seem to work well.
One more crack at getting the crank trigger angle right, and then the engine is coming out to throw the built one in
tranny needs to go to colin, flywheel to the machine shop, and once they're back then its go time baby
alrighty, just got back from the garage and it seems like 55 degrees on the trigger angle is what worked for me.
I still have a surgining idle, its ridiculous, I'm ready to pull my hair out, I want it to sit at 1000 strong all friggin' day.
but NOOOO the engines gotta be a bitch!!
Timing changes have the fastest effect on idle speeds. Fuel is next, and IAC is last. That's because the timing can be changed by the ECM relatively quickly, the fuel takes a little time to respond, and the IAC is usually a slug compared to the other two.
One of the tricks to smooth a surge is to set the timing values so they don't change much around the idle range. This is mainly to get a starting point. You may need to make small changes once you start driving the car. But the idea is to look at spark advance, map, and rpm while it's surging. If advance is changing more than 6-ish degrees over 500 or so RPM and MAP is ranging from say 20-25 kPa to 45-55 kPa, timing may be part of the problem. You have to imagine a box drawn in the timing table with one corner at the low surge RPM and the lowest MAP value seen while idling, the other corner is at the highest idle rpm and the highest MAP reading. Inside that box find the cells in the middle then change all others so each one is within 2 degrees of the one next to it. It's even ok in the beginning to make all cells the same, just to get it to idle.
The same thing can happen with the VE table. If VE changes drastically the engine may bo going from lean to rich at the same time it's adding and removing timing. Remove as many variables as possible, get things so they don't hunt or surge, then start adding things back in slowly.
At least when the engine gives you trouble you can change it.
-->Slow
ge_forcez22 wrote:steve, you have the AEM gauge, correct? what does the maunal say for calibrating it? I just wannamake sure I did it right, and I can't find it online. If I find a PDF file I will repost or pm you, thanks buddy.
P00.........
I have my set the way it came and the manual said the same.... for my app. 2200 turbo.....
P00......
Lee
JDM Civic Hatch
Status: Parting Out Turbo Kit....
14.224 @ 102.01MPH @ 5.5psi.... 2.3 60'
Next: Civic JDM B16a2 w/GSR LSD Turbo - Goal 300whp 1400lbs...
thanks slow
got the engine to idle nicely, all it needed was to open the IAC a bit more and give it more timing.
running about 25 deg. advance right now around idle.
We were having trouble with the rest of the map leaning out as it went to 0 vacuum. I've been messing around with the fuel graph to smooth everything out, and so far it seems to be working. I'm getting a much quicker throttle response without any bog.
was hearing a nice lean spot when you romped on it, but that has soon been fixed.
I'd love to drive this thing around to get a feel for the program a bit more, but I'd rather get everything between idle and 4000 and 17" and 0" figured out, that way the larger injectors are just a matter of bringing down the entire map and tweaking for boost, etc.
so ya, next time its surging, for me, I'm going to try increasing IAC values.
I dont have VE tables, just accel enrich, post start, after start, coolant and IAT modifiers.
Im glad I could get this sumbitch to idle, for the first start up on the new engine, its going to be 2.4 injectors just to get everything close. Then its onto the huge injectors, and lower FP
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Friday, June 30, 2006 6:34 PM
Quote:
Then its onto the huge injectors, and lower FP
May the fates smile upon you!
-->Slow
fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.
thank god she started, looks like youll have money to work on the car afterall
___________________________________________________________________
Engine is now out, took us 4 hours including a difficult transmission, 1 blown CV joint
, and having to yank all the turbo stuff off as well.
good times, I'll post a few pics for you guys later.
and ya, aside from maxing my credit card, and all the other expenses I somehow manage to be able to go out and get hammered like I did lastnight
happy canada day to any other canucks who might read this
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Saturday, July 01, 2006 5:27 PM
Got a LOT of work done today!! Big thanks to Tyler, Justin, Ian, and Cal for swinging by and lending a hand wherever possible!!
The Introduction:
ARP Rollcall:
Mainstuds
The Mad Scientist himself hard at work checking end gap:
This picture says 'Rock and Roll'
Eagle Rods, Wiseco Pistons installed:
Freshly painted
ARP Rollcall 2:
Headstuds
The Shocker!!!!
Got the engine in today, but ran into a small problem with fuel leaking, so I couldn't start it. (no biggie, it might be running tomorrow)
heres me wrenching away V
I had an issue with my fuel inlet fitting on the fuel rail. I wasn't planning right, and it would have ended up going through the power steering pump.
So I reworked it and drilled/tapped for a fitting on the back of the rail.
That fitting leaked, so now I have to get fancy and actually do a nicer job.
serves me right
