Hi there,
Im getting ready to rebuild the bottom end of my eco. Im going to be adding:
rods
pistons
neutral shafts
new bearings
ETC.
Since im going to be using neutral shafts, I was thinking it would be a good idea to get the roating assembly balanced at a machine shop.
My question is:
I havnt had any machining work done in the past, when I ask for prices, what is realistic as far as cost per hour or flat rate?? I dont know if 10$ and hour is realistic or 100$ an hour is realistic?? What should I expect for this kind of work?
Thanks,
"Go Before Show Yo."
CARCUSTOMS.NET, THE BEST SERVICE ON THE ORG!!!
if you're having the bottom end balanced, don't put the neutral shafts in just get the delete kit from level zero motorsports.
even if the shafts are neutral, you're still going to have weight thats being needlessly spun by the secondary timing chain.
there's a few cars running with the mods you've mentioned that have never seen a machine shop before. It may prove to increase longevity, but the few cars running like this have been for quite some time. It may be a waste of time to have it balanced, and could save you some moolah
what kind of RPM are you looking at spinning?
ALWAYS BALANCE YOUR BOTTOM ENDS AND ROTATING ASSEMBLIES WHEN DOING A FULL REBUILD!
ALWAYS!
I used to race cars, now I race myself.
5K PB: 24:50
10K PB: 54:26
Don't listen to ZZZzz.
Balance the bottom end, When your going all motor the only way your gonna make power is by spinning it higher. Can the stock bottom end take higher revs? Sure!
Goto a machine shop with an updated balancer, they have a way to calculate the hosepower cost to spin the assembly at its current balance. Once you see how much horse your loosing to spin at xxxx rpm, and then you take a look at the after, its pretty surprising.
On top of which it causes the motor to be more reliable.
X2^^^^ you can never goe cheap in this part of your motor!!!!
Built&Boosted moar
04 Cavalier Turbo r.i.p my baby
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Quote:
Beau
Today 1:28 PM
Don't listen to ZZZzz.
my friend's turbo eco cav with the 'uber unsafe unbalanced bottom end' runs consistent mid 13s and has hit 13.2 @ 106mph with forged rods and pistons that we installed ourselves <shrugs>
he drives it on the street pretty often and I doubt he drives it very nicely.
but I agree balancing is a good idea.. but i don't really see it as a necessity if you're using off the shelf pistons (wiseco, etc) and rods (eagle) since if I remember correctly, they try to keep weights within the ballpark of stock so that balance isn't terribly upset.
if he was changing to the eagle crank and/ or spinning up to rediculous RPMs (higher than 8k) then I could see it being required.
Oh well guess its just me. When in doubt, overbuild.
and its skwirl please
lol
I agree on the balance...... exp. an all motor setup. I'd also get some crank work done to lighten it up....... all motor power = light weight and high reving.
as for labor rates, call around. I think my machine shop charges $65 an hour. Was about 1.5 hours for my 2.3 oil pump machine work on my 2.4 setup. Around $450 to have it bored .040" over (w/ deck plate), crank work, balancing the rotating assembly, and 2.3 oil pump machining.
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Beau wrote:Don't listen to ZZZzz.
must I mention that PJ has one of if not the fastest N/A Eco on the org? lol.... I think he knows slightly what he's talking about... just a side thought...
http://www.motortopia.com/cavyfreak442/cars
Best ET to Date: 14.251 @ 98.51 mph. 13's or Bust Baby!
CavyFreak442 wrote:Beau wrote:Don't listen to ZZZzz.
must I mention that PJ has one of if not the fastest N/A Eco on the org? lol.... I think he knows slightly what he's talking about... just a side thought...
lol
|Forged 8.9:1 Wiseco Pistons|Forged Eagle Rods|HPTuners|60trim|Tial Wastegate|
|Precision Intercooler|2.5" Exhaust|2.5" Charge Pipes|630CC Mototron Injectors|
|Stock: Fuel Pump, Transmission, Manifold, TB, Head, Head Gasket, Ignition, Suspension...|
Thanks for all the responses guys!
Im going to balance the rotating assembly at the very least.
Im looking for an 8000 rpm red line, I dont doubt the eco will do it without being balanced, but the point is I want it to last!!
Quote:
as for labor rates, call around. I think my machine shop charges $65 an hour. Was about 1.5 hours for my 2.3 oil pump machine work on my 2.4 setup. Around $450 to have it bored .040" over (w/ deck plate), crank work, balancing the rotating assembly, and 2.3 oil pump machining.
So im guessing I should expect about 500$ in labour costs for the bore (0.020 over) and balancing??
That seems reasonable.
Ive been in contact with level zero, they are saying they dont have any of the neutral shafts in stock right now......
I might have to go gm.
According to level zero, the gm shafts and thiers are the same, the level zero ones though are just a little lighter.
"Go Before Show Yo."
CARCUSTOMS.NET, THE BEST SERVICE ON THE ORG!!!
they accmomplish the same thing, but are in no way the same
the gm neutral balance shafts are shafts
the lzm delete kit is a blocker for one side and a bushing to hold the gear for the cog on the other.. there is no balance shaft in there
clay said he needed cores and I intend on sending mine in, however I have yet to pull the shafts out
I see,
His mail said something completely different.
Maybe he meant that it accomplished the same thing and he wanted to keep his tade secrets lol
Ill wait for his mail, I may still go with the gm ones if he doesnt get back to me.
"Go Before Show Yo."
CARCUSTOMS.NET, THE BEST SERVICE ON THE ORG!!!
one thing about clay, he ALWAYS gets back to you
great guy, you're not makin a mistake asking him for advice or seeking his products
I'm pretty sure GM does in fact make a delete kit (not a neutral kit, it actually removes the shafts altogether) its in a PDF file on the gmtunersource.com website
"updated ecotec performance part numbers"
I never said it was unsafe. It just costs power to spin it that fast when its unbalanced, and ESPECIALLY when your buying off the shelf stuff, THAT IS when you balance it man. You balance the Harmonic Balancer ( crank shaft pulley), Weigh the Rods, Pistons, Cranks, Bearings, etc etc. Balance that entire assm.
Seriously goto a shop with a modern balance and look how much power it costs.
get clay's balanceshaft delete kit! i've seen it in action on 2 very fast j's up here, owen and livid run em as well as soon another local jbody will be running them, i say support clayton, the work he does is amazing and the customer service is top notch!!! (even if my seat brackets never did get finished
jks clay!!!!!
1st 1st gen on air.....
the guy who did my block and head work only charged me $700 and that was to put together the bottom end and the head as well as put in the 2.3 pump swap. i'd imagine it wouldnt be no more than that depending on how much they wanna break one off in ya
most rod and piston manufacturers will make sure that every rod/piston they make is within 1 gram of each other. Since the crank is balanced independently at the factory, and then rods and pistons are weight-matched and installed, simply throwing on forged rods and pistons does not at all NECESSITATE a full engine balance...
However, for the best performance and reliability, you should always have the rotating assembly (flywheel, clutch, and PP too) balanced if you've already got it apart to do a full build, and ESPECIALLY if you're removing the balance shafts (and I'm with PJ, either totally delete them, or leave them in, because the neutral shafts just don't seem worth it). The balance shafts are there to help cancel out vibrations, vibrations tend to be bad juju for metal parts, especially metal parts spinning in excess of 6000 rpm. A full balance shouldn't cost enough to be a dealbreaker if you're already shelling out the money for the rest of the build. I couldn't see it costing more than at the very most, another $300, and thats if you're really getting raped for it.
Quote:
must I mention that PJ has one of if not the fastest N/A Eco on the org? lol.... I think he knows slightly what he's talking about... just a side thought...
PJ's my brother from another mother, but don't think that just because he did it one way, that it can't be done better or safer by someone else who does more. The example PJ gave of our friend rich was just a piston/rod replacement because one piston had a ring land crack off, it wasn't a "full build" by any standard. PJ's still on stock block. Yes, you CAN do without the balance and get away with it, but for what it costs to balance it, its just plain stupid not to do it while the motors apart. Even more so in the case of something that will be revving higher than stock (and anyone who knows anything knows that if you want to make serious power out of an NA motor, the stock redline just isn't going to cut it).
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'Nuff said
