Hi ho, J-boys & girls! It's time for dimer again! The question this time: Who's willing to become "flexible" ?

Fact: E-85 has an octane rating of 105 points, yet it cost 40 cents less per gallon than 87-octane gasoline ( At least around me ).

Fact: The short-comings of E-85 ( 33% lower mileage on average ) can be offset by simple modifications such as higher compression, higher flow-rate intake tracts and exhaust w/ header, forced induction w/ lower than average fuel enrichment because of the fuel's cooling effect, and hotter or multiple spark ignition.

Fact: All LN2 powered S-10s produced after Dec. '99 are flex-fuel equipped, along with it's Isuzu Hombre cousins, and are identified by the 8th VIN character of #5.

With all these facts presented you, kiddies, or at least as many as I can think of right now, the following question begs:

Who is willing to make the effort to adapt the fuel delivery and engine management systems of one of these trucks to their '98-up 2200 powered J-cars and take advantage of these strengths available with a flex-fuel capable vehicle? Anyone? Anyone?

Bueller?

Go beyond the "bolt-on".

Its more than a hardware change, its an ECU change as well, since there is no E-85 sensor in any J. It is also illegal to do for anybody in an emissions state to convert, and lastly, its a J body, if you want a flex fuel vehicle, buy one that was really meant to run it.





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HA, thats more work than its worth.....

maby ill get the cost of all thats needed tomaro....

any guess's Ron?


Chris


'02 Z-24 Supercharged
13.7 @102.45 MPH Third Place, 2007 GMSC Bash SOLD AS OF 01MAR08

Nickelin Dimer wrote:Hi ho, J-boys & girls! It's time for dimer again! The question this time: Who's willing to become "flexible" ?

Fact: E-85 has an octane rating of 105 points, yet it cost 40 cents less per gallon than 87-octane gasoline ( At least around me ).

Fact: The short-comings of E-85 ( 33% lower mileage on average ) can be offset by simple modifications such as higher compression, higher flow-rate intake tracts and exhaust w/ header, forced induction w/ lower than average fuel enrichment because of the fuel's cooling effect, and hotter or multiple spark ignition.

Fact: All LN2 powered S-10s produced after Dec. '99 are flex-fuel equipped, along with it's Isuzu Hombre cousins, and are identified by the 8th VIN character of #5.

With all these facts presented you, kiddies, or at least as many as I can think of right now, the following question begs:

Who is willing to make the effort to adapt the fuel delivery and engine management systems of one of these trucks to their '98-up 2200 powered J-cars and take advantage of these strengths available with a flex-fuel capable vehicle? Anyone? Anyone?

Bueller?

if this is so true step up and do it...tell us how it turns out for ya



My car may run 18s, but I can do your taxes in 10 seconds flat.
JBO lube - they would never have enough in stock and we'd never see RodimusPrime again

GM is now moving away from the alky sensor. They have configured a "virtual sensor" in software which can detect fuel needs based on monitoring engine parameters as the engine's running.

Quote:

Who is willing to make the effort to adapt the fuel delivery and engine management systems of one of these trucks to their '98-up 2200 powered J-cars and take advantage of these strengths available with a flex-fuel capable vehicle? Anyone? Anyone?

You might get more converts if you post pictures of your progress. The way you're asking really sounds like you want someone else to do the work to figure it out so you can decide whether or not it's worth the effort.

-->Slow

I have heard of people (non J's) using E-85 on there turboed cars. They say they did not swap any ECU's sensor's etc... I have heard it can be better, but myself no very little about it.



FU Tuning

Fact - E85 makes less power than gasoline
Fact - E85 costs more than gasoline for equal power output
Fact - the same changes that can be made to help E85 get near the power output of gasoline will also make more power with gasoline
Fact - Octane rating does not make power. Water has an octane rating of 10000000000 (made up but you get the idea).


With all these facts presented you, kiddie, or at least as many as I can think of right now, the following question begs:

What makes your theory a good idea?

"Who is willing to make the effort to adapt the fuel delivery and engine management systems of one of these trucks to their '98-up 2200 powered J-cars and take advantage of these strengths available with a flex-fuel capable vehicle? Anyone? Anyone?"
Hopefully no one is dumb enough to waste that kind of money.

sig not found

there's a special fueled cavvy at the junkyard i alwayz go 2..diff but ehhhhh goin there today

4 door civic on the way i need a daily driver

slowolej wrote:You might get more converts if you post pictures of your progress. The way you're asking really sounds like you want someone else to do the work to figure it out so you can decide whether or not it's worth the effort.

IIRC, he doesn't own a J-body, just the S10

I would switch to E85 just for the higher octane if I had a car that needed it, and of course if there was an E85 station within a hundred miles of me...




fortune cookie say: better a delay than a disaster

A few things have always struck me as odd about the push for Ethanol -- I'm definitely not an expert, so anybody can chime in if I'm off-base about these ideas:

- The primary source of ethanol is corn, which everybody seems to think is great because it's a "renewable" crop source. I wonder, however, how much acreage it would take to sustain the fuel demands of a small town, let alone a city, or an entire country? Doesn't corn also leech nutrients from the soil, and require fairly regular crop rotation to remain viable? Isn't a lot of this fertile farmland already tied up in making food? And aren't cities already paving over some of the best land in some regions? It sort of seems like trading a shortage of one resource for the shortage of another.

- Supposing we did begin to embrace ethanol: I think it's safe to say that it cannot completely replace gasoline for the reasons mentioned above. Does it seem likely that major fuel companies are going to pay to maintain the infrastructure to distribute both fuels?

- Does it seem likely that Ethanol will be immune to all the pricing BS we see with gasoline, if in fact it does become mainstream and popular?




    Shop Manuals, Brochures:www.kenmcgeeautobooks.com

^^^^^^ At this time corn has very little value. There is more of it out there than there is a demand for. Many farmers plant not knowing if they will make money. Farming has always been a big gamble. If the weather is bad for crops they might loose money, but if it was a good year for growing crops then the price per bushel is low because the market is flooded. Many farmers have very litle education or know a trade other than farming. Many are poor. They do not have money to spend on things like new tractors, farm equipment, ect. This hurts the companys that manufacture these things, as well as the people who work for those companies, or that are laid off by them. The economic effect of increased ethanol production is good enough reason for me to use it.


The other good reason is that since we are mixing it with gas we are not as dependant upon foreign oil. Also the oil supply will last longer since we are using 10% less of it or 85% less if using e85. This gives us longer to develop products that do not use gasoline. Last I heard gasoline was estimated to be all but gone by the year 2032.


FORGET GIRLS GONE WILD WE HAVE GOVERNMENT SPENDING GONE WILD!

No, we do not have enough farmland to support 100% E85 use in this country. And yes, every crop uses up nutrients in the soil, eventually depleting it.
However, since NAFTA (aka h-e-double-hockey-sticks on earth) began, much of our corn production has been going to the countries to our south, and putting those farmers out of business. So, there is more land down there that can be used as well. The benefit to Mexico and Central America would be huge, which would in turn benefit us.
Also, corn has practically 0 nutritional value, so if we have no more to eat, then it doesn't really matter.
Wartime would no longer produce market fluctuations, but weather would. Switching to full E85 usage would be a bad idea.

Wade Jarvis wrote:The other good reason is that since we are mixing it with gas we are not as dependant upon foreign oil. Also the oil supply will last longer since we are using 10% less of it or 85% less if using e85. This gives us longer to develop products that do not use gasoline. Last I heard gasoline was estimated to be all but gone by the year 2032.

A quick glance through modern history would show you that every 10 years we are told "WE ARE GOING TO RUN OUT OF OIL WITHIN 20 YEARS!!!@$%^#^&*%^" Hasn't happened yet...




fortune cookie say: better a delay than a disaster

Okay everyone, calm down... I was just wondering who else was or is willing to consider the mod. Having done a respectably fair amount of research on this ( Yes, I know more about it than I'm letting on... ) and having friends who run alky outlaw Pro-stock, not to mention having once had 2000 S-10 LN2 engine/trans/fuel lines/ harness w/ PCM that I couldn't use then sold to a friend, I know well what all is involved in this mod. You could still at least run gasoline if you wanted after doing it, and the injectors UNLESS I'm wrong are direct plug-ins for the non-flex-fuel units AND flow 33% more fuel on average. Plus, wouldn't it be great to run your "Needs 100 octane to run safely on the street." vehicle more affordably? And be able to drive it more regularly to boot? 10:1 CR w/ remote-mount turbo pushin' 4.5psi sounds fun to me. Besides, it's just an idea! I have lots of them like this, I just like to share them... even if I never even have the money readily to do even the simplier ones. Hey... How come Mad Jack hasn't commented yet? The way he builds LN2s this has to be of his interest.

Go beyond the "bolt-on".

I wouldn't go out of my way to buy a vehicle that can run on E85 within the next 10 years or so, as the technology is far from perfected, and the cost/benefit balance for much of the general population isn't favorable.

We'll assume you fill up once every 2 weeks at a cost of $3/gallon. $3/gallon x 14 gallons x 26 times per year = $1092 in fuel yearly.

Let's assume that you purchase all needed items to swap in your 2001 2.2L/4A Cavalier for $750. You're now +$750 in the expenditures column.

E85 gets 1/3 worse fuel mileage than standard unleaded, meaning you're now filling up 35 times a year as opposed to 26, meaning $378 more per year over stock. $1128 spent on the conversion.

E85 does cost less at the pump, however. If we use your $.40/gallon price, that's $196 in savings per year. Just to pay off the cost of the conversion, it'd take almost 4 years, but you'd still be at a loss due to more frequent fillups.

Yes, you can do the above modifications to offset the fuel mileage, but that would be a wash, considering you'd be spending money to get equal fuel mileage as stock.

From a financial perspective, it's absurd. Now, if you have other reasons for doing it, go nuts. But don't use it as a cost savings measure.




1989 Z24 Convertible - Dust Covered
2006 tC - Dust Covered, but driven more

use your brains here...

1) yes we cannot support enough corn to runs our cars

2) its not just consumed as a itself. corn is used in many many things

3) getting away form foriegn oil is a GOOD thing.. very good

just tune your car for it. we dont need a sensor as long as you KNOW that you are gtting the same 85/15 mix and tune for it. the car doesnt know what kind of substance its running. I would say youre wasting your money unless your boosted though (or very high static compression N/A). If you are tuning for best fuel mileage you can lean that stuff out raw and it wont knock. I have e85 1 mile away. Im trying it. ill post when its done.



Sven you totally quarterloafed your computer..

The only time GM offered a alternative fuel for the J-body is the Bi-fuel Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) Cavalier. And if you want alternative fueled J-body, get that. It would be the smart thing to do.




>>>For Sale? Clicky!<<<
-----The orginal Mr.Goodwrench on the JBO since 11/99-----

The only time GM offered a alternative fuel for the J-body

So... nothing in the South American market?

-->Slow

Damn, I really started a fire with this. Plus's & minus's from all sides here. Well I'm gonna throw a few last douses of fuel on this before I call to snuff it, so here it goes:

G.T., the only CNG car I would ever look for is one of the rare '83 Ford Granada fleet sedans, just for it's odd collectablity's sake.

Saab, GM's swedish cousin, has a flex-fuel version of the eco-tec called the ecco-tec that is turbocharged, produces more power on E-85 than premium gasoline out the door, and uses less fuel under moderate to heavy loads while on E-85 because of it's cooling effects, resulting in better mileage.

If you guys think alternate fuel-type power source conversions such as E-85 or diesel ( Yes, I've seen you talk about them on this board. ) with or without greasel ( AKA: Reused and/or refined used vegtable oil. ) is a waste of time, then I invite you to explore the plausability of hydrogen enrichment, via a add-on style onboard hydrogen generator that is ready-made in a variety of sizes easily adaptable to any internal combustion engine as I have discovered in my web-wandering at: www.fuelfromh2o.com
If you don't think increased mileage is possible with one of this fed voltage controlled by a pulse-width voltage modulator that is managed by way of a secondary GM C-4 type engine management system ECM that draws its inputs inline via piggy-back style with the factory computer to reduce the excess amount of fuel necessary for light-off during the combustion cycle, especially under load with any fuel type, thereby increasing mileage, then I will consider this subject finished with you. Meantime, I shall wait for your responses.

One more thing, hasanyonetold Mad Jack about this thread yet?

Go beyond the "bolt-on".

Try boric acid. Readily available and much easier to control proportions.

-->Slow

protomec wrote:Fact - E85 makes less power than gasoline
Fact - E85 costs more than gasoline for equal power output
Fact - the same changes that can be made to help E85 get near the power output of gasoline will also make more power with gasoline
Fact - Octane rating does not make power. Water has an octane rating of 10000000000 (made up but you get the idea).


With all these facts presented you, kiddie, or at least as many as I can think of right now, the following question begs:

What makes your theory a good idea?

"Who is willing to make the effort to adapt the fuel delivery and engine management systems of one of these trucks to their '98-up 2200 powered J-cars and take advantage of these strengths available with a flex-fuel capable vehicle? Anyone? Anyone?"
Hopefully no one is dumb enough to waste that kind of money.

also...e85 creates highly corrosive gasses, and will eat a normal exhaust system in short order, so youll need to pony up for true stainless front to back.


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Nickelin Dimer wrote:
If you guys think alternate fuel-type power source conversions such as E-85 or diesel ( Yes, I've seen you talk about them on this board. ) with or without greasel ( AKA: Reused and/or refined used vegtable oil. ) is a waste of time, then I invite you to explore the plausability of hydrogen enrichment, via a add-on style onboard hydrogen generator that is ready-made in a variety of sizes easily adaptable to any internal combustion engine as I have discovered in my web-wandering at: www.fuelfromh2o.com
If you don't think increased mileage is possible with one of this fed voltage controlled by a pulse-width voltage modulator that is managed by way of a secondary GM C-4 type engine management system ECM that draws its inputs inline via piggy-back style with the factory computer to reduce the excess amount of fuel necessary for light-off during the combustion cycle, especially under load with any fuel type, thereby increasing mileage, then I will consider this subject finished with you. Meantime, I shall wait for your responses.

One more thing, hasanyonetold Mad Jack about this thread yet?

Currently, you cannot generate hydrogen from water fast enough to be of any use in an internal combustion engine, even as a supplement. Thats why so much research is going into hydrogen fuel cell technology. If you could genuinely produce enough hydrogen from electrolysis to even slightly increase your gas mileage, the inventor would be a very rich person. Instead of doing research from the companies that are trying to sell these products, try going through third party sites, they are much less bias.







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Fact: GM offered Flex Fuel as an option on 03-05 Cavs. The 8th digit of the vin will be a 6. But keep an eye out because that was also what they used for the natural gas equipped cavs. The Flex Fuel cavs were option L42, the natural gas was option KL6. If your sourcing it from a junkyard the easiest way to tell is that the natural gas cars have a natural gas filler in the panel underneath the tail light. There were also decals and emblems but those could go missing or get taken off. Just do some looking, they aren't as common as regular ecos and probably not even as common as the CNG cavs but they are out there.

E85 stations are supposedly supposed to be becoming more and more commonplace over the next year or so due to all the incentives that are being offered. I guess only time will tell if it will actually happen, but that's what's supposed to happen.

Do some research people.

Really? Then why did I see in my wanderings a lawnmower started and operate in a manner as a mower is intended to be continuously until intentually shut-down by the operator on the web before I found out about the the site I first mentioned? Don't ask me where I found it, as I wasn't looking for anything like it and I wasn't making specific notes as to how I found it. I just found it. However, I am astute enough to know and honestly say what I saw in the video that showed said mower with the afore mentioned device attached being capable doing as truthful. Doubt me if wish, but I speak the truth on this. You have my word on this, it my word has nothing to do with dung.

Go beyond the "bolt-on".

Sorry 'bout that, Cripy. Note of your blurb came while I was composing that last one. Didn't mean to make ya feel ignored. Anyway, thank you! It's good to see some more support on the original idea of this thread.

Go beyond the "bolt-on".

lol, it's cool. I plan on doing a Flex fuel optioned Eco when i get the money together for the swap. Although there aren't any E85 stations currently in my state I'm hoping that will change by the time i actually get around to doing it. It's cool if it isn't though since the parts for the swap only cost about as much as the parts for a regular Eco swap, plus the PCM is already tuned to run race gas