Well, i did some searching but moist of the threads were older.

Im thinking about doing a 3800 swap into my 02 Cavalier. I plan on using a series II 3800, with the getrag 5spd tranny,

I saw the Raven and Double Z(?) were making the subframes/mounts/ everything else needed. I was wondering if they're still around, or if any other companies came out with similar kits.

Or what is needed to be modified on the subframe to make everything bolt up?? I kind of want to do this swap before i start on my s10 350swap. Trying to have 2 13sec cars come spring time




hmmm, i wonder how u use this signature thingy

Yeah, they're both still around. PM them or send them an email. I believe Double Z sells the frames made to order IIRC.

Just so you know, it's going to be a lot more work than your S10 SBC swap, because you can't just buy all the parts like you can for an S10 swap.

yeah i was reading up on it.

From what ive gathered, with Double Z's subframe, the 5spd will bolt up fine, drop engine in, mount it up, splice up some wiring.

The s10 is really easy lol......i ripped the truck down to a cab/frame/bed..... brand new everything!! Redoing all wiring in truck/gauges/etc etc




hmmm, i wonder how u use this signature thingy

I've been trying to get this question answered for a long time: why is it that some people seem to be really enamored with the idea of putting a 3800 in a 3rd gen cav? or any push rod v-6, for that matter? I mean OOOH! a V-6! Wonderful. you've just added a bunch of weight to the front of a car that already has a huge forward weight bias, and for what?
Any amount of power you can make with that V-6 can be generated with a quad or an eco, and you don't have to do nearly as much (if any) fabrication, wiring, etc. push rod engines are INFERIOR! yeah, all those nice, large-displacement v-8s from the 60s put out plenty of power, but we're talking about v-6, and a front-wheel drive car,and 40 years later. And really, what are those engines rated for horsepower-wise? the 3.1 makes about 160 hp? and the 3.8 is, what, 250? 275? (and the the other v-6s are in-between those). whoopee. You can make 275 with a good turbo or s/c setup on any of the DOHC 4-bangers offered in the Js, and still have plenty of money left over (relative to the v-6 swap) to put out even more power.
Of course, someone will say "oh, but the v-6s have so much more torque..." maybe. at low engine speeds. so what? in a car that (with the 4-cyl.) weighs a whole 2700 lbs. with a full interior, a sunroof, and a full tank of gas, you don't need that much torque, and a forced-induction 4-cylinder engine can be designed to have torque too, if that's what you're after.
There's no PERFORMANCE advantage to putting one of these engines in your car.

If you want it for some show quality, fine, to each his (or her) own. But you can't even say it's to be different now, because it's already been done (a number of times).

I'm not trying to be a downer, or that jacka$$ that goes around saying that everyone else is wrong, it just blows my mind that this seems to be such a highly-regarded thing to do.



LD9 F23 FTW!!

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hy is it that some people seem to be really enamored with the idea of putting a 3800 in a 3rd gen cav? or any push rod v-6, for that matter?

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Any amount of power you can make with that V-6 can be generated with a quad or an eco, and you don't have to do nearly as much (if any) fabrication, wiring, etc. push rod engines are INFERIOR!

As the J's get up there in age (mainly the 95-99 2.2's) and miles, its relatively easy to drop in a 3400 and utilize a lot of the stock components (trans, most of the upper mount), or off the shelf parts from other vehicles making it a bolt in application. Granted yes, there is a share of rewiring to do, but with engine swaps, where isn't there?

Pushrod engines are known to be more reliable and have better longevity than the DOHC engines anyhow, are easier to time (1 cam instead of 2) and will function just as well as DOHC counterpart. The TQ curve is different due to the overall design of each, but that is for a different thread altogether.

A lower engine mount bracket and a downpipe for the exhaust needed to be fabbed. That's it. Nothing more. Everything else on the 3400 swap is bolt in. As for the wiring, 20 or so wires coming from the C100 connector and underhood fuse panel need to be spliced into the V6 harness (maybe a bit more, but not much). Not that bad... depending on the route you take for the mounting of the PCM, it could be more (placing the PCM in the stock location will require extending the entire harness 6ft)

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Wonderful. you've just added a bunch of weight to the front of a car that already has a huge forward weight bias, and for what?

The 3400 is only about 150lbs heavier than a 2.2, not really knocking weight distribution off that much. Moving the battery to the trunk will offset some of that weight. For a daily driver, that amount of weight is acceptable.

Knowing that, and also with the very limited performance market for the 95-97 2.2OHV, also with low mileage 3400's to be found darn near anywhere, its a sound upgrade, as well as a viable replacement engine for a daily driver.

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You can make 275 with a good turbo or s/c setup on any of the DOHC 4-bangers offered in the Js, and still have plenty of money left over (relative to the v-6 swap) to put out even more power.

For less than half the cost it would take for a boosted conversion for either a quad or Eco, I have managed to gain about 40 crank HP and 50ftlbs TQ over both apps N/A for N/A. On the engine alone, its only cost me about $1700, including all the odds and ends I've needed to get to this point and the cost of the engine itself, with only 21k on the clock compared to the 175k on the 2.2. Also you must take into account that should I have gone with either one of those (Q4 or Eco), I would have had to purchase a new trans, possibly new trans mounts (and god forbid its a Getrag cause there's a lot added to that swap), adding to the overall cost.

The Eco S/C alone is over that cost, the Q4 S/C is close to it... Not getting into turbo due to the obscene prices for that. Sorry that I just debunked your cost theory

So while there may not be a performance advantage... there is a cost advantage.

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If you want it for some show quality, fine, to each his (or her) own. But you can't even say it's to be different now, because it's already been done (a number of times).

Depending on the area of the country one lives in, yes you can say it is to be different. I can honestly say that as of right now, I have one of very few, if not the only, V6 3rd gen car in WA state (for now... someone I know has a 3800 swap going). I can extend that to OR and ID as well and maybe, if I'm lucky, find another. Even modding something other than an import out here is against the grain. Even you are shunning the concept... why do you do what you do to your car? To impress everyone else? Didn't think so.

Oh, and I do realize that what I posted had nothing really to do with the O/P's 3800 question, just felt like answering a few general questions that were raised based on my own observations

well, the reason i want to do this swap, is because i used to have a 2000 cavalier and planned on doing the swap to it.

At the time, there was only one guy in canada that had the swap done. Well now i have an 02 cavy again, and want something for the "wow" factor. Every car ive played with with the 3800sc i love. And i know its doable, so why not??

I know i can swap an ecotec or other 4cyl, but thats no fun to me.

I want a s10 with a LT1, hopefully running 13s (my show truck) and i want a 13sec cavy to just drive daily. nothing wrong with that.




hmmm, i wonder how u use this signature thingy

toyotaz87 wrote:...Of course, someone will say "oh, but the v-6s have so much more torque..." maybe. at low engine speeds. so what? in a car that (with the 4-cyl.) weighs a whole 2700 lbs. with a full interior, a sunroof, and a full tank of gas, you don't need that much torque, and a forced-induction 4-cylinder engine can be designed to have torque too, if that's what you're after.
There's no PERFORMANCE advantage to putting one of these engines in your car....I'm not trying to be a downer, or that jacka$$ that goes around saying that everyone else is wrong, it just blows my mind that this seems to be such a highly-regarded thing to do...

You may know something about engines, but you don't know as much as you clearly believe you do.
Saying that there is no performance advantage in our cars (quite adamantly, and in bold no less, to make your point louder) is simply ignorant.
As Kardain stated, a 60 degree V6 is not much heavier than the 4 bangers that come in our cars. The 3800 is more weight, and quite honestly, I think the 60 degree is a better swap for many reasons, you can not say that there is no advantage. Here is a simple difference right here.
Consider the weight difference for a moment, as small as it may be: If you build your LD9 to the 180hp that the 3400 already has, which one do you think will get better traction?
Also, if you build a 180hp LD9, it will not have nearly the same torque curve as the V6. I will also bet money that the 4 cylinder will not last as long. The more you have to push an engine, the less reliable it is going to be, unless you have built it from the ground up with an extremely well designed purpose, and exact tolerances. You just don't start modding an engine with a stock lower end and still get the longevity out of it as you push it up there. With the V6, you can be over 200hp easily without much modification. It will take a lot of modification to get your 4 cylinder to that mark.
Plainly put, more cylinders in an engine gives it completely different characteristics of performance.
I will not at all knock the 4 cylinder engines, but anyone who says a V6 is useless has no idea.

I know I have a lot less knowledge than pretty much everybody on this board, but it seems to me that toyotaz87 was under the impression that the OP already had an Eco or Quad, I don't think that's true. If I were swapping out a 2200 for something better, I'd probably go V6 since I'm going through the trouble anyways. Since I already have an Eco, it'd just be easier/cheaper for me to mod than swap. I think that's what he was saying.

Wow, some people and their children, sometimes you should know wtf you are talking about before saying it... how reliable will a ECO or a 2.4/2.2 be at say 500/600hp compared to a 3800? Do some homework before spewing crap out of your mouth, newbie.

Ok, like I said, I'm not trying to talk anybody's car down, just trying to understand this... and, yes, I was writing from the standpoint of someone who (like myself) already has a quad/t.c. or eco.

I was also referring to all-around performance- I recognize the potential advantages of the v-6 in a drag-only car.

To the people who posted valid responses to my post (everyone except Isaak), Thank You. I prob. won't be doing it on my car, but I understand your point of view better now, and that was my intent.

I have much respect for someone who knows what he's doing with his car, is doing much of the work himself, and does a good job of it- be it a v-6 Cav., a Honda, a Nissan, old-school muscle, or whatever- If that's you: props. There was a guy with a blue 'Fire from somewhere in Canada (I forget his name off-hand) who had a really clean 3400 swap. Even though I wouldn't do what he did, It looked really nice and, like, professional. I give that guy props and if the OP does his 3800 that nice, same to him.

I have less respect for people who drive expensive (often fast) cars, but have no idea how they work.

I have very little respect for jackasses who see no way other than their own as valid or worthwhile. I pulled out a little of that attitude myself, and I apologize (I was really tired, and wasn't thinking too clearly... but that's a $#!tty excuse.)



LD9 F23 FTW!!

toyotaz87, I have much respect for you after this post. I have been reading way to many posts lately by people who seem to think they know it all, regardless of the fact that some of them say they may not know everything. I actually thoroughly enjoy a good discussion/debate on such things, and both sides can usually learn something from the other, but I'm getting tired of reading complete bull-headed arguments. Someone who can appreciate and acknowledge valid rebuttals to their view is rare these days, and deserves respect.

If it was me, I'd ditch the3800 idea and go with a 3400. Some people have swapped the 3800 into thier cars and even with thousands spent in suspension modifycations, it still handled like a mini-van. This spring I will be doing a N/A 3400 swap for my daily driver, but I plan to be the first one with a 3.4l 6 Speed Jbody. I'm going with a G6 GTP tranny.

Michael Antle wrote:If it was me, I'd ditch the3800 idea and go with a 3400. Some people have swapped the 3800 into thier cars and even with thousands spent in suspension modifycations, it still handled like a mini-van. This spring I will be doing a N/A 3400 swap for my daily driver, but I plan to be the first one with a 3.4l 6 Speed Jbody. I'm going with a G6 GTP tranny.

I have been looking into this tranny swap, and you may want to reconsider. The gear ratio's are not going to give you any real noticeable gain, and the tranny is heavier, plus you have to get a custom flywheel made. I was really interested in it until I found out more about the tranny. I thought about still doing it for the fact that it would be different, but I decided against it. I'm building a hybrid Isuzu instead.

I just wanted to add some thoughts relating to this:

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If you build your LD9 to the 180hp that the 3400 already has, which one do you think will get better traction?
Also, if you build a 180hp LD9, it will not have nearly the same torque curve as the V6.

I've driven a few FWD cars which make enough torque to break the tires free. It's really no fun unless your goal is only to burn up tires. There are very few tricks to apply to increase traction, and they're not extremely effective. It's not like a RWD car where you can use traction bars, ladder bars, or even shock / spring combos to put weight transfer to work for you. Everything is in the throttle and it can be extremely tricky to manage.

While a V6 will increase the overall fun factor on the street, I am convinced the most practical way to make a FWD car which can consistently put power to the pavement is to build an engine with peak torque at significantly higher rpm. By the nature of the math involved, a higher rpm peak torque leads to greater peak hp. So a 180 hp LD9 would, and should, have a different torque curve than a stock 3400. I believe that curve is closer to an "ideal" traction limited FWD torque curve if there is such a thing.

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I will also bet money that the 4 cylinder will not last as long.

Built and tuned properly, a 180 hp LD9 and a stock 3400 will both give years of satisfactory performance on the street. Either engine can be ruined by poor driving, abuse, or lack of maintenance in a very short time. I heard the same thing about the Quad 4 back when it first came out. Now I'm working on stock engines with 200k miles on 'em.

-->Slow

slowolej wrote:

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I will also bet money that the 4 cylinder will not last as long.

Built and tuned properly, a 180 hp LD9 and a stock 3400 will both give years of satisfactory performance on the street. Either engine can be ruined by poor driving, abuse, or lack of maintenance in a very short time. I heard the same thing about the Quad 4 back when it first came out. Now I'm working on stock engines with 200k miles on 'em.

-->Slow

Actually, if you read that statement in context, I explained that a properly built 4 cylinder will last, but that a stock lower end with upper end pushed to a lot higher output would not last as long. I was simply comparing the same power levels and how much modding it would take to get it there. If you have to push an engine harder to achieve a certain level, it will not be as durable as a stock or mildly modded one unless you get into building the internals. This is, of course, true for the V6 as well. If you want to build a 400hp V6, and you don't build it from the ground up, it's not going to last as long as the stock engine would have.

Again, I am not at all knocking the 4 bangers. I still have my 2.2 sitting in my garage, and I'm half tempted to build it when I'm done with my V6 just for fun. I just think that if you look at what a V6 will give you for what you put into it, it's a better choice for a lot of street driven cars.

Also, a 2.2OHV will last a long time even if you abuse it.
I beat the crap out of mine for quite a while, and the only problem I've ever had with it is a leaky valve cover. When I pulled it out, it had 145,000 miles on it.

toyotaz87 wrote:To the people who posted valid responses to my post (everyone except Isaak), Thank You. I prob. won't be doing it on my car, but I understand your point of view better now, and that was my intent.

I have very little respect for jackasses who see no way other than their own as valid or worthwhile. I pulled out a little of that attitude myself, and I apologize (I was really tired, and wasn't thinking too clearly... but that's a $#!tty excuse.)

My response was for people like yourself that do not need to say thing things you did because lack of knowledge on the subject, when you begin saying such things as "There's no PERFORMANCE advantage to putting one of these engines in your car" and highlighting it for all to see, ya your going to get mixed reactions, especially of ones against you.

As for your apology, much respect for that, one things you along with others must remember, but rarely do, everyone on this site is entitled to do what they want with their car, there is WAY too much bashing going back and forth just because someone wants to put a fart can on their car, its their car, let them do with it that they please.

i have a wrecked buick park avenue, 97 maybe? it has the N/A 3800 series 2 IIRC. i got the pics at home. its for sale as a parts donor for anyone wanting to do a V6 swap. the front has been hit bad enough to total it, but the engine was not hit. rest of the car is in good shape. asking 200.00 located in richmond va.
Ill post pics if there is any interest.



M90'd Built LGO-15 PSI
http://webstarts.com/quadper4mance

I've been told that several Fiero guys have been running the GTP 6 Speed with the 3800 S/C without problems, and without out much modifycation. No custom made things other than the mounts.

YES A 2.2 OHV WILL LAST A LONG TIME EVEN WHEN BEATEN ON. Mine just turned over 335,xxx km's yesterday, and it still runs great.

One factor to consider is the weight of the V-6 being swapped.
If the 4 cylinder is 40 less hp than the V-6, the weight differential can make a 180hp V-6 not go much faster than a lighter 140hp motor. This is assuming it is swapping out an Ecotec 2.2 for a 3400.

I personally would rather do a 2.4 Cobalt engine swap into a 03 or newer Cavalier or Sunfire. The output of the SS 2.4 along with it's light weight should do better than a 3400 swap. Then you wouldn't have to deal with the added weight and the suspension so much.

Since I have not done such a swap, it is only feasibility than actual experience. But it seems likely the 2.4 SS swap would be much better. Or even a 2.0 SS motor...

If you already have a DOHC motor, then yes, it's arguably better to mod that or swap a better DOHC motor. However, the majority of J-body's out there are OHV, and there is no question that bang-for-your-buck, the V6 is the better swap. If going from OHV to V6, you can keep the same tranny. If you already have a DOHC, you would have to replace the tranny for the V6.

I also happen to like the driveability of a V6 over a 4 banger, but that's a personal preference, as with most things involving mods.

Mike Tampa wrote:One factor to consider is the weight of the V-6 being swapped.
If the 4 cylinder is 40 less hp than the V-6, the weight differential can make a 180hp V-6 not go much faster than a lighter 140hp motor. This is assuming it is swapping out an Ecotec 2.2 for a 3400.

I personally would rather do a 2.4 Cobalt engine swap into a 03 or newer Cavalier or Sunfire. The output of the SS 2.4 along with it's light weight should do better than a 3400 swap. Then you wouldn't have to deal with the added weight and the suspension so much.

Since I have not done such a swap, it is only feasibility than actual experience. But it seems likely the 2.4 SS swap would be much better. Or even a 2.0 SS motor...

Um... take a look here.

http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=48&i=9399&t=9399

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I) Catch-All N/A
2. v6h.o., 13.99 @ 96.2
3. Brad, 14.669 @ 93.06

Now compare that to this list:

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E) 2.2L OHV N/A

1. smcavalier, 15.698 @ 91.07
2. Bballjamal (Cav-AtL), 15.710 @ 89.64
3. blackcavygod, 15.879 @ 85.76
4. Anthony (Ant) Garcia, 15.978 @ 84.57
5. Jazer, 16.313 @ 80.54
6. Projekt Unknown, 16.802 @ 80.66
7. The01Cav , 16.834 @ 81.08
8. MadJack, 16.986 @ 80.21
9.Greg Zimmerman, 17.409 @ 78.45

Now which would you choose?

Using estimated vehicle weight of 2700lbs, I have it calculated to 14.75@92mph in the 1/4 mile stock w/ the 3400, maybe better with some light mods -- on par w/ "Brad"s time. Since I haven't yet seen any dyno slips from a head swap, I can't say what it would be afterwards.

The idea you presented is the most cost effective for the application and is also comparing apples to grapes. Since the 2.2Eco trans may very well bolt up to the 2.4Eco, it won't bolt to the 3400. If one can't weld, gotta work with what you have.

The guy under 14 seconds on the 1/4, what all did he do besides the engine swap?

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one things you along with others must remember, but rarely do, everyone on this site is entitled to do what they want with their car, there is WAY too much bashing going back and forth

I absolutely agree. and reading back what I wrote, I guess it was pretty confrontational. But it got some people's attention... I excluded your first post because you simply repeated something another poster had already said and threw in a couple of unnecessary insults. that's the kind of thing that leads to "WAY too much bashing", which usually evolves into an internet fight, which is just lame, and gets threads locked.

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I've driven a few FWD cars which make enough torque to break the tires free. It's really no fun unless your goal is only to burn up tires. There are very few tricks to apply to increase traction, and they're not extremely effective. It's not like a RWD car where you can use traction bars, ladder bars, or even shock / spring combos to put weight transfer to work for you. Everything is in the throttle and it can be extremely tricky to manage.

good point. I really think that the best performance out of a FWD car is achieved not primarily by increasing power, but by reducing weight, and driving for the dynamics of a FWD car, versus driving a FWD car like it's RWD.

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While a V6 will increase the overall fun factor on the street, I am convinced the most practical way to make a FWD car which can consistently put power to the pavement is to build an engine with peak torque at significantly higher rpm.

maybe that's why hondas have so little low-end performance... (wait, that's a different thread...)



LD9 F23 FTW!!

toyotaz87 wrote:

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one things you along with others must remember, but rarely do, everyone on this site is entitled to do what they want with their car, there is WAY too much bashing going back and forth

I absolutely agree. and reading back what I wrote, I guess it was pretty confrontational. But it got some people's attention... I excluded your first post because you simply repeated something another poster had already said and threw in a couple of unnecessary insults. that's the kind of thing that leads to "WAY too much bashing", which usually evolves into an internet fight, which is just lame, and gets threads locked.

touche... look back at your first post, I too agree that bashing leads to useless internet fights, wait..........................